Merseyrail RPI vs guard

[andywandy]

I witnessed a weird incident on the mersyrail today
An RPI caught an old lady without a ticket who did not realise she had to buy before boarding and said the touchscreen tvm confusing . The RPI was about to issue her a penalty fare when the guard appeared intervened. Telling the RPI he was giving her permission to travel and buy a ticket from Liverpool as the last had made a genuine mistake.

Can guards do this? It seems a little strange.

 

[455driver]

I witnessed a weird incident on the mersyrail today
An RPI caught an old lady without a ticket who did not realise she had to buy before boarding and said the touchscreen tvm confusing . The RPI was about to issue her a penalty fare when the guard appeared intervened. Telling the RPI he was giving her permission to travel and buy a ticket from Liverpool as the last had made a genuine mistake.

Can guards do this? It seems a little strange.

If it was on the train then yes, the guard is in charge!

 

[richw]

The guard is an authorised person. You may travel ticketless when permission is granted by an authorised person.

 

[najaB]

Can guards do this? It seems a little strange.

Yes. It's his train. The end.

 

[andywandy]

Would the guard not get in trouble forallowing ticket less travel?

 

[najaB]

Would the guard not get in trouble forallowing ticket less travel?

No. It is his train. The end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. It is his train. The end.

Well, he could, because he cannot act against company policy, if it were company policy that he not do that.

However, that is something to be dealt with afterwards. So far as the incident on the train goes, if he says they have authority, they indeed do.

It doesn't differ hugely from an airline captain - they have absolute authority over their aircraft, but that doesn't exclude them from disciplinary action back on the ground for having broken company policy.

So to sum up - yes he can, but he might get in trouble later for it.

 

[185143]

I'll be deliberately pedantic and state that penalty fares are intended for honest mistakes!

 

[andywandy]

Is he likely to get in trouble? Considering the woman was like 80 and had more or less no clue what was going on I assume she wouldn't be able to operate a tvm

 

[455driver]

I'll be deliberately pedantic and state that penalty fares are intended for honest mistakes!

And how often is somebody 'let off' when they should have been PFed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is he likely to get in trouble? Considering the woman was like 80 and had more or less no clue what was going on I assume she wouldn't be able to operate a tvm

I would very much doubt it.

 

[najaB]

Well, he could, because he cannot act against company policy, if it were company policy that he not do that.

"Necessary for the safe and on-time operation of the train." Trouble? What trouble?

Okay, it's not *quite* as black and white as that but revenue protection is a secondary (tertiary?) role as far as the guard is concerned. As long as he can justify his actions under his primary role then there is little to be concerned about.

So letting one confused OAP buy their ticket at the other end of the journey is highly unlikely to win him a visit to his manager's office.

 

[cjmillsnun]

And how often is somebody 'let off' when they should have been PFed?

Very, very rarely (if caught). IMO this is one of the few occasions where discretion was used correctly.

 

[Matt Taylor]

My discretion overrules the authority of an RPI to issue a PF, if a similar situation arose on one of my trains I would expect the RPI to allow to me issue a ticket without further discussion. It's my train and I would be the one dealing with the fallout after the RPI has got off.

 

[Jonfun]

Whilst I think there's no doubt the Guard *can* do it, I would suggest it's unprofessional. If the RPI started interfering in the Guard's duties it wouldn't be seen as acceptable and bearing in mind the Merseyrail Guards are non-commercial I think the RPIs should be left to do their duties as they see fit.

Everyone should work as a team, co-operate with each other, communicate and respect each others' remit. Let the Driver drive, the Guard guard, the RPI deal with ticket irregularities, the Buffet Manager deal with the catering and the Cleaner clean.

 

[hantsman1205]

Whilst I think there's no doubt the Guard *can* do it, I would suggest it's unprofessional. If the RPI started interfering in the Guard's duties it wouldn't be seen as acceptable and bearing in mind the Merseyrail Guards are non-commercial I think the RPIs should be left to do their duties as they see fit.

Everyone should work as a team, co-operate with each other, communicate and respect each others' remit. Let the Driver drive, the Guard guard, the RPI deal with ticket irregularities, the Buffet Manager deal with the catering and the Cleaner clean.

And if it was your elderly relative? The train is run for the customer and being helpful I would think go's along way.

 

[CheesyChips]

Everyone should work as a team, co-operate with each other, communicate and respect each others' remit. Let the Driver drive, the Guard guard, the RPI deal with ticket irregularities, the Buffet Manager deal with the catering and the Cleaner clean.

They were working as a team, the duties of the RPI and the guard clearly overlap.

 

[richw]

Is the guard not the "train manager" i.e. in charge of the service and what he says goes.

A number of RPIs seem to have power trips and fail to show discretion to vulnerable passengers, and some need putting in their place.

Good on the guard.

 

[323235]

I think from what has been said there was obviously grounds for the guard to show some discretion , would he do something of this sort overruling his RPI colleague often? I can't imagine so unless it came under similar circumstances . It is nearly Christmas after all, show the lady some discretion if she was genuinely struggling as the Penalty Fare rules indeed state.

 

[Jonfun]

They were working as a team, the duties of the RPI and the guard clearly overlap.

The RPI doing his job and being told by the Guard (who don't have primary responsibility for revenue on Merseyrail) *in front* of the passenger he's trying to deal with doesn't strike me very much as working as a team, it strikes me as undermining his colleague, which is one of the few things which actually, genuinely annoys me.

If we're talking about a situation whereby the Guard knew the passenger was onboard and aware of the situation with regards to her ticket then made a quick "oh sorry mate, forgot to tell you, she came to see me about the problem and I gave her the okay to buy at the other end" to the RPI then obviously that's a different situation.

A passenger shouldn't be let of a penalty fare just because they're old, whether they're my elderly grandmother or not. Yes, there is scope for discretion in the penalty fare rules but just because someone is old doesn't immediately mean they're vulnerable and need wrapping in cotton wool. Do you turn 65 and immediately become a dribbling vegetable?

 

[najaB]

A passenger shouldn't be let of a penalty fare just because they're old, whether they're my elderly grandmother or not. Yes, there is scope for discretion in the penalty fare rules but just because someone is old doesn't immediately mean they're vulnerable and need wrapping in cotton wool. Do you turn 65 and immediately become a dribbling vegetable?

Only the OP was there, the rest of us are commenting on the event second-hand. To the OP: you said that the lady was confused - did she appear to be distressed as a result of the confusion and dealing with the RPI? Was it the case that the RPI was 'told off' by the guard or was it more convivial?

 

[furlong]

Can guards do this? It seems a little strange.

Maybe the guard understood Penalty Fares better than the RPI?

Authorised collectors are expected to use discretion towards passengers who are elderly.

And no, whatever an "honest mistake" is, nobody aware of the background to their introduction can really substantiate a claim that they were "intended" for such situations. Even a criminal might say they had just made an "honest mistake" - use of these words doesn't assist anybody. A phrase that is used is "honest passenger" and the documentation consistently tries to avoid such people being caught by such schemes. A guard who considers that the lady is an "honest passenger" is quite right to intervene.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Only the OP was there, the rest of us are commenting on the event second-hand.

Quite true. But this isn't the real world, but RailForumsUK where anyone can have a dig at rail staff for whatever reason they dream up. Or compare railways with air travel.

And how often is somebody 'let off' when they should have been PFed?

But sadly, that sort of behaviour just doesn't have the inflamatory 'red rag to a bull' effect on the forum's critics of the railways which a single "little old lady" incident does, even when the incident is handled appropriately and deserves no more comment that an appreciation of the actions taken.

 

[323235]

Quite true. But this isn't the real world, but RailForumsUK where anyone can have a dig at rail staff for whatever reason they dream up. Or compare railways with air travel.

The Press and Twitter Users are just as good at doing this. You taint this forum as if it is something unique.

 

[gray1404]

Maybe the guard had alreay given her permission to travel before the RPI got on, i.e. permission already to get her ticket at the other end.

I hope there was not a team of RPIs at Liverpool Central when she got off. Anyone of that age though, if they live in Merseyside should have a free travel pass. I wonder what station she got on at - one without a ticket office?

 

[CheesyChips]

A passenger shouldn't be let of a penalty fare just because they're old, whether they're my elderly grandmother or not. Yes, there is scope for discretion in the penalty fare rules but just because someone is old doesn't immediately mean they're vulnerable and need wrapping in cotton wool.

So what's the purpose of discretion if this isn't an obvious case of when it should be applied?

:roll: People wonder why they're being replaced by touchscreens.

Do you turn 65 and immediately become a dribbling vegetable?

Using the rail network in this country without knowledge of this forum puts you on an intellectual par with a dripping vegetable.

 

[bb21]

Quite true. But this isn't the real world, but RailForumsUK where anyone can have a dig at rail staff for whatever reason they dream up. Or compare railways with air travel.

Dave, while I respect you hugely for the continued contributions you make and thank you for your assistance whenever needed, I don't think this statement is very fair the way it has been presented. While it is true that some forum users have a tendency to criticise rail staff for the most insignificant of matters, and being an open forum no one can stop them doing so, what is also true is that in these cases said forum users are without fail robustly challenged. Some might possibly slip through the net if not reported (- we rely on these as it is impossible to monitor every single post/thread), most will simply not be able to get away with that sort of antics without being challenged by some other forum users, especially if the criticism were unjustified.

 

[LowLevel]

It really is one of those scenarios where you have to have been there. Certainly where I am the guard is king and revenue protection assist - however it would take a lot for me to undermine them because that's what it is and I respect their professional judgement so there will usually be more to it like a fact they're unaware of. On the other hand, if particularly unfair decisions etc are made in board my train, in my opinion, whether by the trolley host or by revenue protection or indeed anyone else then I also reserve the absolute right to intervene if I see fit as I am effectively the company's supervisor on board. It would take a lot for me to do that to a colleague though and I've only ever had to do it about trolley hosts being over zealous about wasting tea with a broken card machine rather than revenue protection, who are generally employed on the basis of having good situational judgement.

 

[bb21]

It really is one of those scenarios where you have to have been there. Certainly where I am the guard is king and revenue protection assist - however it would take a lot for me to undermine them because that's what it is and I respect their professional judgement so there will usually be more to it like a fact they're unaware of. On the other hand, if particularly unfair decisions etc are made in board my train, in my opinion, whether by the trolley host or by revenue protection or indeed anyone else then I also reserve the absolute right to intervene if I see fit as I am effectively the company's supervisor on board. It would take a lot for me to do that to a colleague though and I've only ever had to do it about trolley hosts being over zealous about wasting tea with a broken card machine rather than revenue protection, who are generally employed on the basis of having good situational judgement.

You have just about summed up what I was thinking.

I hesitate to comment on this "incident" as many of the necessary details are lacking before I can make any sort of informed comment, but I can certainly understand the point about not undermining one's colleague, especially in public, unless absolutely necessary. Without knowing how the conversation took place it is impossible to say whether that were the case in the "incident" described here but it is a reasonable question to ask and ponder over, in a more general setting.

 

[kelv]

as an 'outsider' reading this thread & hoping to get a trainee guards position there are words that jump out at me .... elderly, confused & vulnerable.
If this scenario put to me in a role play/ interview then I would act as the guard did and either sell the appropriate ticket to the lady or as he did allow her to travel and purchase at the other end, also reassuring her that it wouldn't be a problem and that it wasn't something to worry herself about.
To me that would be showing Good Customer Service Skills, and I'll bet that the lady has told people that the Conductor was Lovely & Understanding .... thus painting the company in a good light.

How he dealt with the RPI is another matter though & imo should have been done away from the passengers, and maybe the RPI should have used a bit of nouse and asked the guard before threatening the fine. Also he shouldn't have questioned the guards decision.

It seems from the description of events that a whole host of things didn't work in the way that they should have done.



There's a question on 1 of the application tests along a similar vein, where a lady cant find her purse and is getting flustered and the answer that I've always picked is along the lines of telling the lady that I would finish my duties checking other tickets to allow her the chance to locate her purse/ticket and not to panic.

For what it's worth if she couldnt find it and was sure she had it in the station I would if possible contact the station to see if had been found there to help as much as possible.