Gospel Oak to Barking Line (GOBLIN) electrification

[Busaholic]

Is it just my imagination or id Thamesmead the most isolated part of Greater London?

I was born and grew up in the Borough of Woolwich, now assimilated into Greenwich, and Thamesmead when being planned was on the very edge of London in the old pre- Greater London days. There were historical reasons why the London County Council area included Woolwich borough, which was further from Charing Cross than anywhere else in London, and Woolwich itself was much nearer Central London than most of the borough eg. Plumstead and Abbey Wood. Because of the poor transport connections, Thamesmead council housing was not popular with most would-be council tenants and, so, what the popular press of the day called 'problem families' moved in, or were perhaps created there, so the place became synonomous with anti-social behaviour. Scenes in the 'Clockwork Orange' film were shot here, to represent hopelessness and anarchy, and it became fertile territory for far right political groupings.

I hope the above helps with an understanding of the area. To the north lies the River Thames with, until recently, only a (daytime) ferry crossing from Woolwich to get anyone across the divide. To the east lies Erith, the home town of the late comedian Linda Smith, and her views on the place were pretty unprintable!

 

[Hophead]

I hope the above helps with an understanding of the area. To the north lies the River Thames with, until recently, only a (daytime) ferry crossing from Woolwich to get anyone across the divide.

Plus, for reasons of completeness, a foot tunnel (opens all hours?).

 

[Class 170101]

If you look at the aggregate / cement traffic (and I'm not aware of any Intermodal currently running via the GOBLIN) then nothing in my opinion. It will be a long time before the Hope Valley route in Derbyshire is electrified.

Quite a bit:-
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...4/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=ZZ

Anything to / from London Gateway, Tilbury RCT and Dollands Moor will be Intermodal.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well assuming that all those services run yes there are one or two that you would have thought could use electric traction throughout but the likes of Hams Hall are not electrified. In such cases you would need a loco swap in which case I'm guessing its easier for the FOC to use a class 66 throughout.

 

[Mikey C]

Willesden to Gospel Oak remains open.

The biggest stink is between Stratford and Forest Gate Jn trying to path freights across all four lines of the GEML.

What I was getting at, is that with the increased frequencies on the Overground Network, there can't be many paths left for freight. The GOBLIN might have space, but to get to Willesden you still have to then share the busy Willesden to Gospel Oak section.

I guess many freight trains will use the connection onto the MML

 

[Class 170101]

What I was getting at, is that with the increased frequencies on the Overground Network, there can't be many paths left for freight. The GOBLIN might have space, but to get to Willesden you still have to then share the busy Willesden to Gospel Oak section.

I guess many freight trains will use the connection onto the MML

Some will be. But some trains originate from GWML at Acton and as above Intermodals will be mostly WCML bound. I don't think there is much Intermodal traffic on the London to Wigston Jn (Leicester) section of the MML.

 

[traji00]

Orange army at work today - looking east towards Crouch Hill station.
It looks like a base for a mast has appeared (the 'dark looking square'):

(Pardon my lack of rail terminology)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There's also a Twitter feed with photos from the team, I thought I'd posted already (maybe it's on another thread).

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailGOBE

 

[Class 170101]

Are there not meant to be buses for the Blockade?

Realtime trains hasn't come up with any for Blackhorse Road.

 

[jon0844]

I was a bit confused as to why Gospel Oak was showing on the Great Northern platforms at Finsbury Park, as a rail replacement bus.

There aren't trains from there normally, so any idea why the departure boards were showing buses? I assume the buses were going via Finsbury Park, but it still seems odd to show them on a rail platform?

 

[Class 170101]

I was a bit confused as to why Gospel Oak was showing on the Great Northern platforms at Finsbury Park, as a rail replacement bus.

There aren't trains from there normally, so any idea why the departure boards were showing buses? I assume the buses were going via Finsbury Park, but it still seems odd to show them on a rail platform?

Would be shown for connectional purposes though they should be on the general, all platform board and not specific platform boards.

 

[plcd1]

Are there not meant to be buses for the Blockade?

Realtime trains hasn't come up with any for Blackhorse Road.

There are no rail replacement buses between Walthamstow Central and South Tottenham during the blockade. Passengers are supposed to walk from South Tottenham to Seven Sisters, take the Victoria Line to the Central and then catch the RRS covering the eastern end of the route.

Even during the full blockade from the Autumn there will be no bus connection between Seven Sisters and Walthamstow Central. People are forced on to the Tube. Even worse the frequencies of the RRS at each end are different making it even harder to make a connection - western end buses will be half hourly! I guess TfL are assuming only the desperate or insane will use them.

https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/major-works-and-events/london-overground-closure

Parts of London Overground's Gospel Oak - Barking line will close until early February 2017 as Network Rail carry out major work to electrify the line.

Just a short quote because not all the info on the page can be cut and pasted.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The photo in post #127 will the track have been replaced specifically for the electrification or was it due for replacement anyway?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The photo in post #127 will the track have been replaced specifically for the electrification or was it due for replacement anyway?

Track lowering IIRC.

 

[AM9]

Well assuming that all those services run yes there are one or two that you would have thought could use electric traction throughout but the likes of Hams Hall are not electrified. In such cases you would need a loco swap in which case I'm guessing its easier for the FOC to use a class 66 throughout.

I wonder if the continuing revelations about diesel pollutants will lead to restrictions on where they can operate in built-up areas like the NLL and Goblin. With an electrified MML and GWML, the pressure for action will surely increase, and I don't think that the grandfather rights of railways will extend to unnecessarily increasing the health risk in urban areas.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I wonder if the continuing revelations about diesel pollutants will lead to restrictions on where they can operate in built-up areas like the NLL and Goblin. With an electrified MML and GWML, the pressure for action will surely increase, and I don't think that the grandfather rights of railways will extend to unnecessarily increasing the health risk in urban areas.

I am hoping so - I think it was a diesel idling in Birmingham New Street thread IIRC that caught my eye and I thought I wonder if this will give a new impetus for electrification.

 

[snowball]

I wonder if the continuing revelations about diesel pollutants will lead to restrictions on where they can operate in built-up areas like the NLL and Goblin. With an electrified MML and GWML, the pressure for action will surely increase, and I don't think that the grandfather rights of railways will extend to unnecessarily increasing the health risk in urban areas.

I was thinking it could work in favour of railways. If diesel road vehicles have been emitting far more than permitted, but the emissions from rail vehicles have been measured realistically, it could lead to a delay in introducing the next generation of regulations for rail vehicles, while road vehicles catch up.

I haven't seen much mention of road HGV emissions in all the coverage of car emissions.

 

[coppercapped]

I wonder if the continuing revelations about diesel pollutants will lead to restrictions on where they can operate in built-up areas like the NLL and Goblin. With an electrified MML and GWML, the pressure for action will surely increase, and I don't think that the grandfather rights of railways will extend to unnecessarily increasing the health risk in urban areas.

In which case the Burger King stall in Paddington station should be closed immediately...

 

[class303]

I'm glad to see the return of this thread. The improvements should be rapid from now on. A lot of Walthamstow residents complaining on local boards about the vibrations from the Pile Drivers(?) shaking their radiators.

Be interesting to see it progressing.

 

[furnessvale]

I was thinking it could work in favour of railways. If diesel road vehicles have been emitting far more than permitted, but the emissions from rail vehicles have been measured realistically, it could lead to a delay in introducing the next generation of regulations for rail vehicles, while road vehicles catch up.

I haven't seen much mention of road HGV emissions in all the coverage of car emissions.

Talking freight, given that rail only emits 30% of the pollutants, and uses 30% of the fuel that road does to move freight, I think that catch up will be a long time coming.

 

[AM9]

Talking freight, given that rail only emits 30% of the pollutants, and uses 30% of the fuel that road does to move freight, I think that catch up will be a long time coming.

That's a statistic about diesel railfreight in general. The low emission zone in London may be the precursor of more stringent controls on diesel road vehicles, yet there is less likelihood of any national rule changes at the same emissions levels. Similarly, there are many areas where heavy freight traffic travels on lines that thread their way between miles of homes in densely built-up areas, the NLL and the GOBlin being particular examples. To date, the freight traffic using the unelectrified routes from London has an excuse for diesel traction over the inner London links. When most of the remaining routes are fully electrified in maybe 10 years time, (GWML, MML, SWML - via Basingstoke on the Electric Spine), the case for continued diesel freight traction will be much weaker, especially if 'last mile' auxiliary engines are fitted to new electric locomotives.
Of course London is not the only place with this issue, but it is where the most pressure will be brought to bear on the industry. New Street should expect a ban on diesel stock as soon as the line(s) to Bristol are electrified.

 

[jopsuk]

Talking freight, given that rail only emits 30% of the pollutants, and uses 30% of the fuel that road does to move freight, I think that catch up will be a long time coming.

As said, that's a general statistic and is helped by trains being able to run for lengthy periods at reasonably continuous power output with low friction and air resistance compared to road haulage.

But through London, with twisty convoluted routes and lots of junctions, I'd wager the trains spend a lot more time accelerating. WHich is where the emissions are worse- and locally concentrated compared to the equivalent lorries (which would be on the M25)

 

[AM9]

As said, that's a general statistic and is helped by trains being able to run for lengthy periods at reasonably continuous power output with low friction and air resistance compared to road haulage.

But through London, with twisty convoluted routes and lots of junctions, I'd wager the trains spend a lot more time accelerating. WHich is where the emissions are worse- and locally concentrated compared to the equivalent lorries (which would be on the M25)

So freight operations near inner London (or other urban centres) could well be resricted to non-locally polluting traction where there are electrified routes available.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

So freight operations near inner London (or other urban centres) could well be resricted to non-locally polluting traction where there are electrified routes available.

Or in the next HLOS, an accelerated program to convert remaining to electric (well I can hope and wish)

 

[Bald Rick]

So freight operations near inner London (or other urban centres) could well be resricted to non-locally polluting traction where there are electrified routes available.

Very, very much doubt it. A local authority, even the GLA, doesn't have any jurisdiction in such matters on the national network. It would require primary legislation to force such a restriction.

Bear in mind that even where it does have a jurisdiction, e.g. London buses and taxis on Oxford St, it has elected to do nothing in the short to medium term despite failing the recommended maxima for certain pollutants.

What could happen is that lobbying / campaigning might persuade FOCs to do something. However unless it was broadly cash neutral for them, they would just say that the traffic would go onto the roads, and London (or wherever) woudld then be rightly accused of exporting pollution.

 

[AM9]

Very, very much doubt it. A local authority, even the GLA, doesn't have any jurisdiction in such matters on the national network. It would require primary legislation to force such a restriction.

Bear in mind that even where it does have a jurisdiction, e.g. London buses and taxis on Oxford St, it has elected to do nothing in the short to medium term despite failing the recommended maxima for certain pollutants.

What could happen is that lobbying / campaigning might persuade FOCs to do something. However unless it was broadly cash neutral for them, they would just say that the traffic would go onto the roads, and London (or wherever) woudld then be rightly accused of exporting pollution.

That is the current state of affairs. I think that as the government sees its failure to meet environmental commitments together with pressure from the public about exposure to pollutants, even the most carefree of administrations could find themselves needing to shape the behaviour of FOCs and road carriers with punitive charges for doing the wrong thing. Who would have thought that the London LEZ would be put in place (and enforced) if it meant additional costs to bring many HGVs up to a certain standard. I forsee that minimal standard being gradually tightened now that the principle has been established for HGVs. The push to ensure that many locations in London meet acceptable pollution targets will come from communities that have seen the impact on health from diesels engines in particular.
One day the focus will switch to freight trains, and the fact that they could complete their transit through the Greater London Area under electric power would not escape the attention of pressure groups with public health in mind.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Once the MML, GWML and GOBLIN electrification schemes are complete (or at least within the London area), will that leave very much mileage of track that's non-electrified within London?

 

[Taunton]

This is very much a repeat of the discussions (albeit over a way longer period of time) that took place in the 1950s after the worst of the London smogs, principally caused by coal burning.

Although most publicity was about domestic house heating, the railways, with a couple of thousand steam locos in London at any one time, were also a target and impacted. The pioneer diesels were allocated to London sheds and the very first overall scheme was quickly put in at Devons Road depot, Bow, on local trip working around the London docks, The NE London 25Kv electrification also got stimulated by this.

Talking freight, given that rail only emits 30% of the pollutants, and uses 30% of the fuel that road does to move freight

A misleading figure, I suspect, which doesn't take into account diesels being left for hours to thrum away in circumstances that a lorry would just be switched off, or locos for a trip working across London being sent down light engine from Doncaster or wherever because that's the most convenient point for the operator to run it from.

 

[AM9]

Once the MML, GWML and GOBLIN electrification schemes are complete (or at least within the London area), will that leave very much mileage of track that's non-electrified within London?

The only real non-electrified intrusion into Greater London would-be the old GC lines from Marylebone to Denham and Rickmasworth, (although the latter is already 630VDC courtesy of LU). Not that those lines are likely to carry much freight anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is very much a repeat of the discussions (albeit over a way longer period of time) that took place in the 1950s after the worst of the London smogs, principally caused by coal burning.

Although most publicity was about domestic house heating, the railways, with a couple of thousand steam locos in London at any one time, were also a target and impacted.

Agreed. The difference now being that post MML / GWML Electrification, the number of rail diesel engines operating in London at any one time will be counted in scores rather than thousands.

This can be compared to the number of diesel generators powering standby systems at hospitals etc (there are always some of these on); or the huge diesel engines powering maritime traffic on the Thames, or the diesel generators in the top of 'reefer' lorries, for which there are no emissions regulations, and there are thousands of those.