Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[route101]

Does anyone know why 170s were chosen when National Express introduced them what seems like donkey's years ago?

My vague recollection is that they started on Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk, but then slowly spread onto the longer-distance "intercity" routes displacing 158s that in my opinion are better suited to the job (although HSTs should be even better). Was it a political thing ("the central belt has new trains so the rest of Scotland should have them as well"), or an actual franchise commitment from NatEx?

I think they were 2 orders of them in 1999 and 2004 . Its more the fact they use 3 cars on the long distance routes to me

 

[ScotTrains]

Yes I agree completely. The 170s are not suitable for long distance work. I was on 170401 on Wednesday and the rattling noise from the roof is unbearable. They are also too small and cramped for long distance.

I'm certainly looking forward to the HSTs on long distance routes. The buffet serving hot meals will be very welcome.
I'll certainly miss the 170s on the short EDB to GLQ route. I do like the 1st class seats on them. The new 385s interior really looks poor in comparison. The seats in the mock up were terrible.

I was talking to a visiter recently at Waverley and even they said the train today is less cumfortable than their last visit in the 90s when the vastly superior 158s were in charge.

Out of interest, why are the 158s vastly superior to the 170s? I've always thought it was the other way around. The first class provision is much nicer on the 170s. Personally, I do prefer the end door layout of the 158s though.

 

[hibtastic]

Out of interest, why are the 158s vastly superior to the 170s? I've always thought it was the other way around. The first class provision is much nicer on the 170s. Personally, I do prefer the end door layout of the 158s though.

On the long distance stuff, the door layout on the 158 is better but I still prefer the 170's - they just feel more spacious.

I am looking forward to the 170s taking over all of the Fife Circle services.

 

[Clansman]

I don't have a problem with the 170s. Nice, comfy, spacious and reliable trains compared to the 158, which I find a little bit cramped. The door layout doesn't bother me at all, although I'd rather have end to end doors. First class is comfy on both 1999 and 2004 units as well as the standard class seating (although the old NatX fabrics are long needing replaced!)

As for the 158s, I've mixed feelings on them. They are very cramped seating wise, I'm not a big fan of engine (which is more annoying than the 170s to me) and the first class in them is atrocious, no wonder Scotrail are doing away with them - considering the fact they are due to work the West Highland Line, thus first class would be a big tourist magnet.

I'm quite surprised that the 158s will continue to work on the Borders and Fife Circle (and Perth and Dundee on occasions) when 170s could be retained and let the 158 fleet go down south, or replace the 156s out of Central. But no doubt someone will quote this paragraph and explain why But never the less, I can't wait for the 170s to start working the Perth (and more Dundee) semi-fasts - I'm getting sick of gruelling through Fife on the 158s. The 170s will be more bearable and have comfier seats (+ first class provision).

Overall the HSTs will be a welcome addition and I think it will be a great improvement to the line - although that depends on the interior - hopefully Abellio won't go down the route of the Anglian Refurb which looks quite basic. Hopefully they go for a more XC HST style look but with blue

 

[Blindtraveler]

I fear I have unintentionally dragged this off topic into a 1 unit V another debate. Oops.


I note the first completed 385 to land in the UK did so yesturday or the day before. Pitty itl take so long for them to enter service..

 

[387star]

Does anyone know why 170s were chosen when National Express introduced them what seems like donkey's years ago?

My vague recollection is that they started on Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk, but then slowly spread onto the longer-distance "intercity" routes displacing 158s that in my opinion are better suited to the job (although HSTs should be even better). Was it a political thing ("the central belt has new trains so the rest of Scotland should have them as well"), or an actual franchise commitment from NatEx?

It was a time when 170s were being ordered en masse the go to train for any non electrified routes

Midland mainline , anglia railways, chiltern railways, central trains , south central and hull trains were all placing orders

Out of interest why did midland mainline need 170s and after that meridians for some of its services.... Not enoug hsts?

 

[Clansman]

A part of me has always thought the 170s were misconceived or misinterpreted by TOCs in terms of their design or purpose if you like. Looking at the history the decline from Intercity/Express to Suburban/Regional services is proof that TOCs mustn't have gotten what they expected out of them - but due to the fact that the majority of Intercity/Express TOCs operate from London, my statement is debatable and TOCs needed vaster capacity.(?)

 

[Highland37]

Both the 170s and 158s are awful in my view and I travel on them all the time. Tourists must think they have arrived in some backwards place, the have, when they see the stuff we have here relative to SNCF, SBB or OBB.

To illustrate an example, I run lots of trips for kids from the West Highlands. My staff have to supervise the travel, and to a woman, they want to avoid the train at all costs from Kyle, Inverness, Mallaig or Fort William as it takes ages, is totally out of date and much slower than the bus. I insist on the train however but it causes friction.

We are living with the legacy of decades of poor decisions and under investment.

 

[link1driver]

Give me a 158 any day! Much better to drive. 170 OK for express, pretty poor when on a Fife Circle! Acceleration and timekeeping unacceptable, unless the journey us one that's padded out, get them on the back shift at evening peak.

170 for passengers are great, although the refurb 158 looks good as well, can't comment on the seats as I've only used the one in the cab

Looking forward to HST, thank goodness a real train before I retire

 

[najaB]

My staff have to supervise the travel, and to a woman, they want to avoid the train at all costs from Kyle, Inverness, Mallaig or Fort William as it takes ages, is totally out of date and much slower than the bus.

I'm struggling to see the relevance to a thread discussing the performance of Abellio Scotrail. Without significant infrastructure investment - and this Transport Scotland's responsibility, not the franchise holder's - the same would be true no matter what rolling stock is used.

 

[Mordac]

Both the 170s and 158s are awful in my view and I travel on them all the time. Tourists must think they have arrived in some backwards place, the have, when they see the stuff we have here relative to SNCF, SBB or OBB.

To illustrate an example, I run lots of trips for kids from the West Highlands. My staff have to supervise the travel, and to a woman, they want to avoid the train at all costs from Kyle, Inverness, Mallaig or Fort William as it takes ages, is totally out of date and much slower than the bus. I insist on the train however but it causes friction.

We are living with the legacy of decades of poor decisions and under investment.

I can assure you that rural branch lines in those countries don't exactly see double-decker TGVs either.

 

[marks87]

I can assure you that rural branch lines in those countries don't exactly see double-decker TGVs either.

But Glasgow and Edinburgh to Aberdeen and Inverness aren't exactly rural branch lines (even if parts of the HML can give that impression). They're the main intercity routes, which thankfully are getting intercity-standard trains in the next few years.

 

[cf111]

But Glasgow and Edinburgh to Aberdeen and Inverness aren't exactly rural branch lines (even if parts of the HML can give that impression). They're the main intercity routes, which thankfully are getting intercity-standard trains in the next few years.

And at a mere 40 years old, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[380101]

Give me a 158 any day! Much better to drive. 170 OK for express, pretty poor when on a Fife Circle! Acceleration and timekeeping unacceptable, unless the journey us one that's padded out, get them on the back shift at evening peak.

170 for passengers are great, although the refurb 158 looks good as well, can't comment on the seats as I've only used the one in the cab

Looking forward to HST, thank goodness a real train before I retire

I'd take our 156s here in Strathclyde any day over a 158! Drove one for a week on training train and was not impressed with the brakes in comparison to the 156! The refurb 156 units look fairly decent aswell. Slightly gutted we won't get the HSTs though.

 

[najaB]

And at a mere 40 years old, what could possibly go wrong?

Much like Trigger's broom.

 

[tbtc]

Out of interest, why are the 158s vastly superior to the 170s? I've always thought it was the other way around. The first class provision is much nicer on the 170s. Personally, I do prefer the end door layout of the 158s though.

I think it's the obsession that some enthusiasts have with door layout - anything with doors nearer to the middle of the carriage is automatically dismissed as "suburban"

I'm quite surprised that the 158s will continue to work on the Borders and Fife Circle (and Perth and Dundee on occasions) when 170s could be retained and let the 158 fleet go down south, or replace the 156s out of Central. But no doubt someone will quote this paragraph and explain why

I'm not expert, but I guess that it'll be a combination of:

• with the "fast" services (central belt to Aberdeen/ Inverness) taken over by HSTs, there's less need for 100mph DMUs (still plenty of routes where 75mph 156s can cope though)
  
• higher leasing costs/ operating costs for the 170s? (both First and Abellio seemed happy to ditch the 170s ahead of the older DMUs)

Could be wrong though

Out of interest why did midland mainline need 170s and after that meridians for some of its services.... Not enoug hsts?

The initial 170s were all on "new" services, timed to connect with the existing London - Sheffield/ Nottingham services at Leicester (so that they'd sit at Leicester for ten or fifteen minutes), serving "local" stations en route so that the HSTs could be sped up.

A part of me has always thought the 170s were misconceived or misinterpreted by TOCs in terms of their design or purpose if you like. Looking at the history the decline from Intercity/Express to Suburban/Regional services is proof that TOCs mustn't have gotten what they expected out of them - but due to the fact that the majority of Intercity/Express TOCs operate from London, my statement is debatable and TOCs needed vaster capacity.(?)

It may just be that there was nothing "Intercity" being built until the Voyagers. The 170s were just marginally updated 168s which were updated 166s (in the grand scheme of things), so could be built fairly quickly.

It took longer until other "fast" stock (175, 180, 185, 220, 221, 222) was being built and TOCs could go for something more suitable (e.g. Hull Trains using 170s from Hull to London, upgraded to 222s then 180s).

I guess some TOCs preferred to go with a tried and trusted design, rather than order something bespoke and unique (unlike the hipsters at First Group!)

Both the 170s and 158s are awful in my view and I travel on them all the time. Tourists must think they have arrived in some backwards place, the have, when they see the stuff we have here relative to SNCF, SBB or OBB.

To illustrate an example, I run lots of trips for kids from the West Highlands. My staff have to supervise the travel, and to a woman, they want to avoid the train at all costs from Kyle, Inverness, Mallaig or Fort William as it takes ages, is totally out of date and much slower than the bus. I insist on the train however but it causes friction.

We are living with the legacy of decades of poor decisions and under investment.

1. When was the stock on the Kyle/ Mallaig lines brilliant? Enthusiasts would have enjoyed 37s or 26s, but not normal passengers

2. What level of stock do you realistically expect to Kyle/ Mallaig?

3. The kind of tourists heading to a metropolis like Kyle/ Mallaig etc are presumably attracted by the "backwards" charm, rather than expecting an Apple Store, a LEGO shop and a dozen Starbucks?

 

[route101]

Prefer 156 to 158 on the Shotts line , better visibility and engine noise seems to match what the train s doing ! 158S just feel like they are idling or floating .
There was a 170 on a Edinburgh to Dundee earlier

 

[najaB]

There was a 170 on a Edinburgh to Dundee earlier

That's not uncommon. At a guess one in three(ish) is a 170 rather than 158.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think it's the obsession that some enthusiasts have with door layout - anything with doors nearer to the middle of the carriage is automatically dismissed as "suburban"

Concerns about the 170s being 'suburban' was one of the main reasons the ScotRail ITT had a focus on improving the InterCity services. There were comments in the press about how some people would deliberately choose to travel at different times just so that they could use the East Coast services to Aberdeen and Inverness rather than the ScotRail express services.

 

[Mordac]

But Glasgow and Edinburgh to Aberdeen and Inverness aren't exactly rural branch lines (even if parts of the HML can give that impression). They're the main intercity routes, which thankfully are getting intercity-standard trains in the next few years.

That post was talking about the West Highland and Kyle lines though.

 

[Butts]

Concerns about the 170s being 'suburban' was one of the main reasons the ScotRail ITT had a focus on improving the InterCity services. There were comments in the press about how some people would deliberately choose to travel at different times just so that they could use the East Coast services to Aberdeen and Inverness rather than the ScotRail express services.

I can confirm that is correct, especially when travelling First Class.

 

[marks87]

That post was talking about the West Highland and Kyle lines though.

I think my point still stands.

We have 170s on routes that France, Switzerland or Austria would regard as "intercity" and as such would afford appropriate stock.

While the poster I quoted used the Kyle line as an example, the stock to which they referred is used on express "main" line services.

 

[jingsmonty]

The sooner we get HST on the Scotrail Intercity routes,the better -I just hope they are refurbished to a high standard and not the basic refurb that the 158's have had...the Mk3 coaches would look great with some cool LED ambient lughting and decent seats (NOT those nasty Grammer seats on the 158's and FGW HSTs).

Re Far North & Kyle line..might it be an idea to have 1 train (summer only,perhaps) formed with a 4car HST. They are RA5 (as far as I know) and Inverness traincrew will be HST qualified. Also, HSTs can use the 'MU' differential speeds on the routes. As long as there is a portable RETB unit that can be used. Sure there will be things to work out, but would definetly be something to see, akin to the observation car that used to run on the Kyle line many years ago...

Think I saw a previous thread that there was a summer only HST service planned on the West Highland Line?

170s would be better if they werent so gutless climbing gradients!

 

[jopsuk]

HSTs CANNOT use MU speed differentials. No idea why you've got that idea

 

[link1driver]

I'd take our 156s here in Strathclyde any day over a 158! Drove one for a week on training train and was not impressed with the brakes in comparison to the 156! The refurb 156 units look fairly decent aswell. Slightly gutted we won't get the HSTs though.

Used to have 117,150, 156 and 47 once upon a time! You get used to their brakes, interestingly they have a better brake than the second series 170, step 2 can be no better than 1 at times:cry:

 

[47271]

As a regular Scotrail passenger I'd sooner have a 170 over a 158 over long distances any day of the week. Aside from the dud aircon, 158 seats are far too upright and lacking in legroom.

I agree that both types are far from satisfactory for Highland Main Line use, but it's the lack of luggage space that's the real killer they have in common, many a time I've had to move cases blocking doorways to get on or off. The large mid-coach rack in First's 'Inverness' refurb of the 158s went some way towards sorting this, but it's hardly a good use of a prime window bay.

Let's hope this is properly thought through on the HSTs, mk3s aren't that great either if you get a very busy summer holiday period service on the East Coast.

 

[CC 72100]

We have 170s on routes that France, Switzerland or Austria would regard as "intercity" and as such would afford appropriate stock.

Ah that old chesnut; France in fact on Intercity routes which are not TGV or ran with comfortable but getting-on-a-bit loco + coaches will actually be run most likely by Bombardier DMUs, with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 down the carriage in 3/4/5 formations.

So perhaps not quite so far away from a class 170

 

[cf111]

Re. the reservation printer at Inverness - still broken as of this morning but the Highland Chieftain has reservations. Are they ferrying them up or have Scotrail just run out of tickets?

 

[jingsmonty]

HSTs CANNOT use MU speed differentials. No idea why you've got that idea

I would beg to difer, sure the Rule Book states that HST CAN use MU speed boards - they can't use SP speed boards. They were originally class 253/254 DEMUs..

 

[kkong]

I would beg to difer, sure the Rule Book states that HST CAN use MU speed boards - they can't use SP speed boards. They were originally class 253/254 DEMUs..

Agreed.


HST: Class 91 locomotive with mark 4 vehicles and DVT, classes 158, 159, 168, 170, 171, 172, 175, 180, 220, 221, 222, 253, 254 and 373
MU: Multiple Unit Trains
DMU: Diesel Multiple Units
EMU: Electrical Multiple Units
SP: Classes 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 165, 166, 168, 170 , 171 and 172
CS: Class 67 locomotive

At locations where more than one speed indicator is displayed, classes listed in more than one speed category shown above, may run at the higher of the speeds displayed.

National exceptions to MU trains
• Class 185 trains are not permitted to run at MU or DMU speeds
• Class 390 trains are not permitted to run at MU or EMU speeds
• Class 253 and 254 trains formed with less than three coaches between the power cars are not permitted to run at MU or DMU speeds.