Class 387 to GN

[jon0844]

I can't imagine any situation where the positioning of first class would be good as it is, but wonder if some fleet manager thinks different for the fast(er) or longer distance services.

There has to be someone who likes the idea and can argue that it's better.

I find it bizarre that a small section of standard class in each 4 car set is cut off, and people need to go through first class to get to a toilet or to find more seating.

Just as crazy that one of the eight vestibules is reserved for first class ticket holders now, yet not even correctly marked.

RPIs must either say 'sod it' and press ahead with penalties, or turn a blind eye to those who might board a busy train and then have an 'oh s+&* moment' as they find out where they are. And many may be unable to move through the train at this point.

So standard class users upset. First class users upset. Rail staff upset.

Yeah, great decision!

(I promise I won't keep repeating myself but it's so easy to get riled up on this subject!)

 

[bramling]

I can't imagine any situation where the positioning of first class would be good as it is, but wonder if some fleet manager thinks different for the fast(er) or longer distance services.

There has to be someone who likes the idea and can argue that it's better.

I find it bizarre that a small section of standard class in each 4 car set is cut off, and people need to go through first class to get to a toilet or to find more seating.

Just as crazy that one of the eight vestibules is reserved for first class ticket holders now, yet not even correctly marked.

RPIs must either say 'sod it' and press ahead with penalties, or turn a blind eye to those who might board a busy train and then have an 'oh s+&* moment' as they find out where they are. And many may be unable to move through the train at this point.

So standard class users upset. First class users upset. Rail staff upset.

Yeah, great decision!

(I promise I won't keep repeating myself but it's so easy to get riled up on this subject!)

Whatever the status of the vestibule, it's still a problem. If people can't stand there then it's a waste of much-needed capacity. If people can stand there then it will disturb users of first class. Lose either way.

 

[jon0844]

Yes. It wasn't properly thought through.

Yet it can so easily and quickly be fixed to everyone's satisfaction. Well almost, but certainly more than now.

 

[bramling]

Yes. It wasn't properly thought through.

Yet it can so easily and quickly be fixed to everyone's satisfaction. Well almost, but certainly more than now.

Just had a thought. Maybe the reasoning was to keep first class separated by the sliding door, so that (at least some) first class passengers don't twig that the accommodation is identical to standard, thus protecting GTR's first-class revenue.

 

[jon0844]

Just had a thought. Maybe the reasoning was to keep first class separated by the sliding door, so that (at least some) first class passengers don't twig that the accommodation is identical to standard, thus protecting GTR's first-class revenue.

Perhaps! That does of course rely on first class always being in the same place, and we know it can vary. FCC got all the 321s the right way around after a while. Can GTR? And which end will it choose? London or country?

 

[Skimble19]

On 387114. You won't be surprised (this is GTR) that it is still waffling out about East Coast rather than coach numbers. It also has a lot of first class passengers as it is at the very front and people won't walk to the already overcrowded coach 2.

Oh and first class trimmed seats are in the front coach further down for info. Standard looks like horizontal stripes. First vertical. Put both exist in the composite coach (in standard class).

This does appear to be correct for most units.. it appears there are more seats with the First Class trim on them than required in its ridiculous new location, and some are therefore left in the standard class section.... very helpful

 

[jon0844]

Now no stickers at all. Boarded in first and they were doing a ticket check (four members of staff, albeit not all checking and just sitting there for the ride).

Got chatting and they said they're reporting the issue regularly as there just isn't enough signage and they're told to enforce the vestibule as first class.

 

[Failed Unit]

Enforcement of the vestibule is fine off peak. Would love to see them try in the peak.

Saying that they never bothered on the 317s and 321s.

The situation never arose on the 365s because of the sensible location.

 

[bramling]

Got chatting and they said they're reporting the issue regularly as there just isn't enough signage and they're told to enforce the vestibule as first class.

That just sums up how utterly incompetent this TOC is. So capacity is reduced by introducing this type of train. Then they go and put first class in a highly stupid place, with numerous reasons why this is problematic, not least because it's wasting a vestibule which provides much-needed standing capacity on a reduced-capacity train. Now, when the predicted inevitable is happening, they're stopping people using this space.

Utterly breathtaking incompetence demonstrated by the people making these decisions. What planet are they on?

No wonder their service is a shambles, if these people can't even get a basic thing right, then what hope is there?

 

[jon0844]

To be fair I don't think they are enforcing the vestibule, but have been told that it is first class. In this case they aren't being 'jobsworths'.

They agreed it's mad there are no clear and prominent '1' stickers on the windows, or outside. One said that on at least one train, people had removed a load of antimacassars.

So far every single RPI I've made a point of talking to thinks it is mad. I am sure there are showing a LOT of discretion and no wonder first class ticket would see this negatively.

 

[bramling]

To be fair I don't think they are enforcing the vestibule, but have been told that it is first class. In this case they aren't being 'jobsworths'.

They agreed it's mad there are no clear and prominent '1' stickers on the windows, or outside. One said that on at least one train, people had removed a load of antimacassars.

So far every single RPI I've made a point of talking to thinks it is mad. I am sure there are showing a LOT of discretion and no wonder first class ticket would see this negatively.

Took a rare peak journey into London today, and deliberately ensured I had the comfort of 2x317 for the journey.

Whilst on the platform, I let a 2x387 service come and go. I could hear a few people discussing the new trains, in particular complaining about how they find the seats uncomfortable, too hard, too upright, and much less of them compared to the old trains. Interestingly they noted they had replaced the "really old" trains, which I find surprising as I wouldn't describe the 321s as being really old, nor looking like that either. It was noticeable there were RPIs standing in the first class doorway with no one standing there, so it seems they are having some kind of crackdown, no doubt in response to complaints. Given how much chatter I have heard about the 387s, all less than complimentary, I suspect GTR must be receiving complaints about them.

 

[387star]

Amazing how soft the seats are on the early 377s

That said not sure where gn complaints arise from I wasn't aware of tl or gx users complaining about the same train

 

[Wivenswold]

I don't think a judge would agree with GTR's policy.

If it's not clearly sign posted then he'll side with the defendant. Let's hope if they do fine someone that victim will have the grapes to give their side of the story in court. It would only be in the small claims track so a defendant wouldn't have to worry about a costs order if they lost. Which they won't.

 

[Failed Unit]

Amazing how soft the seats are on the early 377s

That said not sure where gn complaints arise from I wasn't aware of tl or gx users complaining about the same train

Gatwick express users can vote with their feet.

To be honest my biggest gripe with them is the reduction of seats. Can't comment about how hard the are as I never get a seat. (Always got on when the services were 317 / 321)

If I was a first class ticket holder I would be demanding a refund now.

Thameslink didn't experience the capacity reduction GN has when they were introduced as services were extended to 12 cars at the same time. Passengers saw a benefit. I know Gatwick express users are not happy.

 

[43096]

Amazing how soft the seats are on the early 377s

That said not sure where gn complaints arise from I wasn't aware of tl or gx users complaining about the same train

You need to re-read this thread then.

It's blindingly obvious why there are complaints. The seating in them is a disgrace. Shame really, because the build quality is very good, which makes a change for Bombardier. They could be a really nice train if the interiors had been spec'd properly; unfortunately they were Southern's spec, and as we know Southern have low standards that they consistently fail to achieve.

 

[urpert]

Amazing how soft the seats are on the early 377s

Funnily enough we have Connex to thank for that. They're the same design (Compin?) as those fitted to various French regional DMUs.

 

[Class377/5]

Gatwick express users can vote with their feet.

To be honest my biggest gripe with them is the reduction of seats. Can't comment about how hard the are as I never get a seat. (Always got on when the services were 317 / 321)

If I was a first class ticket holder I would be demanding a refund now.

Thameslink didn't experience the capacity reduction GN has when they were introduced as services were extended to 12 cars at the same time. Passengers saw a benefit. I know Gatwick express users are not happy.

Been told today the figure of GatEx passengers happy with their has gone up since the 387s were introduced. Can't remember te figures but was was mentioned as Train satisfaction.

 

[Failed Unit]

Been told today the figure of GatEx passengers happy with their has gone up since the 387s were introduced. Can't remember te figures but was was mentioned as Train satisfaction.

Very surprised- but never experienced the 442s on gatEx. I only ever use Thameslink so maybe the 387s are an improvement to the 442s. however the cynic in me says if passengers have gone over to Southern / Thameslink they can't downvote the seats.

Be interested to see how great northern satisfaction is holding up. The 387s keep time. But overcrowding up and PPM and cancellations at a 12 month (at least) low. It won't be pretty.

 

[physics34]

Been told today the figure of GatEx passengers happy with their has gone up since the 387s were introduced. Can't remember te figures but was was mentioned as Train satisfaction.

387 seats... 35minute journey, fine. Plug sockets, tables, etc etc all good.....

1st class passengers can't be though pleased though (i know its never really used on Gat Ex though).

387 GN people though my have more to moan about though with longer journeys.

 

[bramling]

387 GN people though my have more to moan about though with longer journeys.

I think the issue on GN is that the 387s simply aren't delivering major direct benefits to the passenger, but at the same time they are introducing some quite noticeable disbenefits.

The 365 is an excellent train, and the 317s/321s aren't too bad either - at least the latter give as many people as possible a seat, even if it is a little cramped if you're in a middle seat. Whilst the 387s do offer air conditioning and plug sockets, this simply doesn't make up for the reduced capacity. I for one would rather manage without these nice-to-have-but-not-essential features, and instead have a more spacious journey, which the legacy trains offer. In any case, the heating and ventilation arrangements on the 365 are pretty good on all but the hottest days.

With one's ear to the ground, my impression is this seems to be the general consensus amongst GN's users.

Sure the SDO does offer some operational advantages, but this isn't something for the average passengers to have to care about. It's rather frustrating for three small and non-busy stations to impose such a constraint across a whole busy and intensive network. We're not talking mega bucks to extend these platforms, even to 250 metres.

 

[Kite159]

Good news, GTR has changed plans and have decided to send the unsuitable 387s off lease keeping the 319s for the Great Northern work.

A spokesperson said "grumpy passengers were complaining about less seats so we have been listening with the 3+2 seated 319s, with the seats rearranged in all airline style to fit even more seats in."



(Before anybody thinks this is real, it isn't, the likes of Northern would love to have the 387s over the 319s)

 

[jopsuk]

I think once the 387s shift across to their intended work (Cambridge fast/King Lynn) then everyone will be much happier.

Until, of course, the 7000s turn up at which point we get a whole new round of moaning AND a timetable shake up. fun times!

 

[Failed Unit]

Good news, GTR has changed plans and have decided to send the unsuitable 387s off lease keeping the 319s for the Great Northern work.

A spokesperson said "grumpy passengers were complaining about less seats so we have been listening with the 3+2 seated 319s, with the seats rearranged in all airline style to fit even more seats in."



(Before anybody thinks this is real, it isn't, the likes of Northern would love to have the 387s over the 319s)

They probably would. Northern 319s are not full so they won't be making more people stand than previously. That is if they can still physically get on board. Would northern be happy if the 387s came along and less people can travel as a result. Remember this is a significant reduction in crush loading capacity.

Look up 387 seats compared to what they are replacing and tell me how they are an improvement. Getting on the train you want is more important than air conditioning or plug sockets. But as you don't use the routes you don't have a clue how much worse conditions are on the trains now.

 

[D365]

But as you don't use the routes you don't have a clue how much worse conditions are on the trains now.

So how comes we didn't hear the same kind of complaints when the Class 387/1s replaced a number of the Class 319s on Thameslink?

 

[jon0844]

I recall plenty of complaints about the seats on the newest 377s and 387s in the last year or so.

Not so sure why there weren't the same complaints about crowding, but I am just waiting for the 700s to solve that - and for the 387s to move to where they'll hopefully work well.

 

[bramling]

So how comes we didn't hear the same kind of complaints when the Class 387/1s replaced a number of the Class 319s on Thameslink?

Thameslink passengers used to receiving a rubbish quality of service whereas GN users generally aren't?

The 387s were only ever in the minority on Thameslink so they weren't exposed to as many people? (today's Thameslink is, of course, largely a turn-up-and-go service so the same people probably wouldn't be getting 387s day in day out, by contrast GN is very much a timetable-based railway, and still will be in the future).

Average journey lengths on Thameslink are shorter?

GN passengers have been exposed to the 365 which shows what should be possible?

I think there will be *more* complaints once the trains start serving the fast Cambridge trains. The Kings Lynn RUG is rather vociferous, for a start, and the hard seats and rough ride will make themselves felt on journeys to London which are approaching 1 hour from Cambridge, and 1h 45 mins from Kings Lynn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the likes of Northern would love to have the 387s over the 319s)

Have the horrible things. Northern's users would soon get fed up with the uncomfortable seats, rough ride, and incessant rattles from various interior fixtures - assuming they get a seat of course, bearing in mind how few seats they have for a 4-car unit.

Meanwhile I for one would happily keep the 365s, supplemented by 317s or 321s to make up the necessarily fleet size. Alternatively we'll take some Electrostars with an interior specification more akin to those found on Southeastern!

 

[notverydeep]

So how comes we didn't hear the same kind of complaints when the Class 387/1s replaced a number of the Class 319s on Thameslink?

The 387s arrived at the end of a series of train lengthening and frequency increases across the Thameslink routes that were (if I remember correctly) known as Key Output 1 of the Thameslink project, with a key new timetable in 2012. These trains were mostly additional to the fleet. At the time they arrived only a few 319s had been released to Northern and the additional 377/2s arrived at much the same time.

Passengers on Thameslink were seeing crowding relieved by these trains. Some would have been getting a seat after years of standing, in that context they would have been very welcome. I am sure GN passengers at WGC would have welcomed them, had they brought 12 car trains to replace 2 x 317, or perhaps 4 tph rather than 2 tph...

 

[jon0844]

Were the 387s on TL ever run as 4 car only?

I think if GTR had made all the 4 car trains 8 car, and used SDO as required, people would be rather more impressed.

For example, having the 1tph Sunday services from Cambridge to King's Cross doubled in size. Definitely more room overall, and the advantage of an open gangway between the two.

But, no, that's not happened. If 387s are used on a Sunday, it must be hellish at times. At certain times of the day, Sunday can see almost weekday peak usage (especially if a train is cancelled due to a shortage of train crew).

 

[bramling]

But, no, that's not happened. If 387s are used on a Sunday, it must be hellish at times. At certain times of the day, Sunday can see almost weekday peak usage (especially if a train is cancelled due to a shortage of train crew).

I think a lot of people have ditched GN at weekends. I know a fair few myself who have. Personally I can't remember the last time I took a GN train on a weekend. Nonetheless I can imagine the 387s are pretty hellish inwards from Welwyn -- and there's a lot more of this to come from February when the majority of the weekend stopping services will be formed of 1x387.

 

[D365]

the 387s were a like-for-like replacement of 29 Class 319 units. And while I still wait to reserve judgement on the seating type, I was always under the impression that (for Cambridgeshire commuters at least) the 3+2 cushion seats of the Class 317/321s are universally loathed.

Not to mention that mechanically the Class 387s are far superior to that what they replace, and Greater in number than the Class 377/5 fleet that was first mooted.