Virgin Trains ticket row

[All Line Rover]

Morning peak trains to London tend to be considerably busier than evening peak trains from London. Perhaps because demand is spread out over a narrower time period in the morning; most business passengers wanting to arrive prior to 10am.

On one occasion when I travelled on the 06:43 Manchester to Euston and it was 9 cars (instead of the diagrammed 11 cars), it was standing room only in first and there were a handful of seats remaining in standard. The date of that journey was after the railcard easement was abolished but before Advance ticket fares were dramatically cut in price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's also scope, if you have a morning meeting or all day workshop, to adjust when you come back more than when you go. To go off-peak will require a costly hotel, to return off-peak might just require the employer to offer to pay for a decent meal[1] for the employee if they hang around in London a while longer and save a packet.

[1] Technically taxable, but in practice nobody is looking out for small stuff like that.

 

[gray1404]

I really think that the guy in the article should not let this lie. Some free tickets in 1st on VT (which I suspect will be valid on the booked train only with reservations), at a cost of £0.00 to VT is NOTHING.

Virgin breached the contract - simply as that. The BTP also failed by being there and not allowing the customer on their way when VT had no evidence that the customer had not started their journey at Lancaster.

I believe an out of court settlement is what VT should be offering.

 

[najaB]

The BTP also failed by being there and not allowing the customer on their way when VT had no evidence that the customer had not started their journey at Lancaster.

BTP were called and attended. Are you saying they should not turn up when summoned?

 

[gray1404]

You know that I am not saying that at all.

What I am saying is that the BTP are often used to a customers disadvantage and to act as a way of detaining the customer. The TOCs use them as a way of getting them to attend to intimidate the customer and make them feel both like they might have done something wrong and that they have to stay exactly where they are.

I would prefer it is the BTP were to actually be objective and impartial in establishing any wrong doing. Then they would actually state that the customer is free to go on their way if indeed they have done nothing wrong. Just because VT are unjustly getting upset above something doesn't mean them calling the BTP with a complaint is valid.

In this case the customer had paid the correct fare for their journey and VT had no well founded evidence of any wrong doing. The customer should therefore not have been detailed for 40 minutes. At worst, a name and address taken (for what is a civil matter between the passenger and train company - and even then it is debatable if there was a reasonable suspicion if they would have been compelled to give it) for possible follow up later once the company had inspected the CCTV. The customer certainly should not have been detained while they checked such.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If it is the SVR, then yes. But some websites will sell you two Saver Half (SVH) tickets which both have BOJ restrictions.

Which web sites do that?

It's happened to me in the past using a Trainline-powered website.

I had thought that Trainline-powered sites (including Virgin Trains WC) which look like they're going to sell you two 'Saver Half' (SVH) tickets for a round trip actually just end up selling you a normal Off-Peak Return (SVR) instead.

(The latter's obviously preferable for many reasons, not least the month validity on the return journey rather than being limited to a specific day.)

 

[najaB]

I had thought that Trainline-powered sites (including Virgin Trains WC) which look like they're going to sell you two 'Saver Half' (SVH) tickets for a round trip actually just end up selling you a normal Off-Peak Return (SVR) instead.

No, I ended up with two SVH's.

 

[Fare-Cop]

In this case the customer had paid the correct fare for their journey and VT had no well founded evidence of any wrong doing. The customer should therefore not have been detailed for 40 minutes. At worst, a name and address taken (for what is a civil matter between the passenger and train company - and even then it is debatable if there was a reasonable suspicion if they would have been compelled to give it) for possible follow up later once the company had inspected the CCTV. The customer certainly should not have been detained while they checked such.

All of the foregoing assumes that you were there, heard what the rail staff and the traveller actually said and that you witnessed the interaction first hand rather than, having read a journalistic piece like almost everyone else debating this matter.

BTP have a brief to act impartially and are normally only called to prevent a public order issue, or sometimes to assist in identifying someone who refuses details. BTP don't get any detailed ticket training and invariably rely on the revenue staff to explain what the issue is.

BTP will be as 'fair' to the traveller as to 'the company', but if the revenue staff genuinely believe that there is an issue with a ticket validity, which they have been unable to resolve with the traveller and have had cause to seek BTP assistance, the only action that the Police will usually then take is to help in identifying the traveller.

 

[Joe Paxton]

No, I ended up with two SVH's.

Interesting. Recently or ages ago? (And it was the website as opposed to the app? Not that I'd expect the end result to be different, but perhaps such an expectation is wrong.)

Last Off-Peak Return on VTWC I had was bought in a frenzied rush from a ticket machine in Euston having hoofed it up the escalators from the Tube!

 

[All Line Rover]

BTP have a brief to act impartially and are normally only called to prevent a public order issue, or sometimes to assist in identifying someone who refuses details...

That's not VTWC's interpretation. When on a day out to Manchester a few years ago with two children in tow, the train manager on the outward journey refused to accept that SOR (Standard Anytime Return) tickets were valid in first class on a Pendolino on a weekend (a concession that VTWC has offered for many years). After politely and calmly explaining why the tickets were indeed valid, and eventually deciding to stop talking when I could see the conversation was going nowhere, the train manager said that the BTP would be waiting for us at Manchester Piccadilly. Unsurprisingly, the BTP weren't there. I'm sure the train manager involved was the same one who regularly claimed that the 08:29 Crewe to Euston (07:55 ex. Manchester) is a "peak train" and refused to accept off-peak tickets from stations in Wales.

 

[najaB]

Interesting. Recently or ages ago? (And it was the website as opposed to the app? Not that I'd expect the end result to be different, but perhaps such an expectation is wrong.)

About three months ago, and via the website.

 

[Joe Paxton]

About three months ago, and via the website.

Thanks. That's a bit rubbish of them, though I guess they sold you what they said they would (i.e two SVHs).

 

[daodao]

There's also scope, if you have a morning meeting or all day workshop, to adjust when you come back more than when you go. To go off-peak will require a costly hotel, to return off-peak might just require the employer to offer to pay for a decent meal[1] for the employee if they hang around in London a while longer and save a packet.

[1] Technically taxable, but in practice nobody is looking out for small stuff like that.

The last couple of occasions that I went to London for an all day meeting, I booked a Travelodge and travelled up the previous evening using an advance ticket, returning using an early evening First advance so that I could make use of the first class lounge at Euston. The total cost was approximately £130.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Point being what?

That anyone with a valid ticket can walk through a ticket barrier or a line of RPI's without challenge. If that valid ticket is to the next station and they then continue to travel further using a different ticket then the gate nor the RPI is blind to that.

OK you can debate the legality of it but some one could easily join at Preston on a Preston to Wigan Anytime and then travel on to London on a Lancaster to Euston Off Peak.

 

[gray1404]

All of the foregoing assumes that you were there, heard what the rail staff and the traveller actually said and that you witnessed the interaction first hand rather than, having read a journalistic piece like almost everyone else debating this matter.

BTP have a brief to act impartially and are normally only called to prevent a public order issue, or sometimes to assist in identifying someone who refuses details. BTP don't get any detailed ticket training and invariably rely on the revenue staff to explain what the issue is.

BTP will be as 'fair' to the traveller as to 'the company', but if the revenue staff genuinely believe that there is an issue with a ticket validity, which they have been unable to resolve with the traveller and have had cause to seek BTP assistance, the only action that the Police will usually then take is to help in identifying the traveller.

I disagree with the point you make in your first paragraph. That is just an easy come back line that we often see on this form as a way of putting someone else's argument down, but it actually bears on substance.

It is a shame that the BTP do not get any training in ticketing (given how complicated the TOCs make it and that actually leads to disputes in it's self). But I do understand that is not practical.

I think there lies a problem that the BTP rely on the revenue staff to explain what the problem is when often it is the TOC revenue staff who do not have a clue and the customer is in the right. Until things change, the TOCs will continue to use the BTP to their advantage and as a method to work against the innocent passenger to make them feel intimidated and like the lesser person, when they have done nothing wrong.

I stand by my comments though that VT have broken their contract here and need to offer much more (yes I am talking a cash sum) to the passenger then some poxy free tickets.

 

[daodao]

That anyone with a valid ticket can walk through a ticket barrier or a line of RPI's without challenge. If that valid ticket is to the next station and they then continue to travel further using a different ticket then the gate nor the RPI is blind to that.

OK you can debate the legality of it but some one could easily join at Preston on a Preston to Wigan Anytime and then travel on to London on a Lancaster to Euston Off Peak.

Surely the guard/RPI on the train would spot the traveller on board south of Wigan and ask him/her to produce another ticket. If my understanding of previous comments on this thread is correct, would not production of a 2nd ticket with Lancaster stated as the origin, where such a ticket is not valid for joining at a subsequent station, be fraudulent? Would not all passengers actually joining at Lancaster have had their tickets checked and stamped/clipped north of Preston, so production of a unstamped/unclipped ticket south of Wigan would look suspicious?

 

[soil]

It'd be up to Virgin to prove the passenger boarded at Preston, or the passengers responsibility to prove he didn't. In all probability Virgin would've offered to settle out of court which the passenger might have accepted for the avoidance of hassle. However had it ended up at the Magistrates Court Virgin would've had no evidence and their case would've failed.

In practice, the train staff may be viewed as a 'credible witness' and his testimony may be accepted as true, unless the passenger can prove otherwise.

 

[gray1404]

Surely the guard/RPI on the train would spot the traveller on board south of Wigan and ask him/her to produce another ticket. If my understanding of previous comments on this thread is correct, would not production of a 2nd ticket with Lancaster stated as the origin, where such a ticket is not valid for joining at a subsequent station, be fraudulent? Would not all passengers actually joining at Lancaster have had their tickets checked and stamped/clipped north of Preston, so production of a unstamped/unclipped ticket south of Wigan would look suspicious?

Thats the essence of the problem here, the customer did board at Lancaster. For whatever reason (in the toilet, was overlooked/missed out by the guard/was at the shop was asleep) they missed the ticket check North of Preston that VT claim took place. I personally doubt it would be possible for an entire train to be checked in that length of time. Even if the guard went through asking for "tickets from Lancaster" is it still possible to miss the ticket check and be walked past or overlooked or not hear the request.

 

[gray1404]

In practice, the train staff may be viewed as a 'credible witness' and his testimony may be accepted as true, unless the passenger can prove otherwise.

That would be interesting in cross examination. i.e. train staff member says the passenger didn't board at Lancaster and actually boarded at Preston. Is then asked "did you actually see the passenger board?" "which part of the train?" "what where they wearing?" I do not think it would stand until the TOC employee can give a firm yes. Again, the legal burden is proof is on VT to prove that the passenger broke the conditions of the ticket i.e. didn't start their journey at Preston (remembering that even if they DID get on the VT in question at Preston, that is still fine provided they started their journey at Lancaster - see ticket restriction wording), and not for the passenger to prove that they didn't.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Surely the guard/RPI on the train would spot the traveller on board south of Wigan and ask him/her to produce another ticket. If my understanding of previous comments on this thread is correct, would not production of a 2nd ticket with Lancaster stated as the origin, where such a ticket is not valid for joining at a subsequent station, be fraudulent? Would not all passengers actually joining at Lancaster have had their tickets checked and stamped/clipped north of Preston, so production of a unstamped/unclipped ticket south of Wigan would look suspicious?

You may never have been the guard on a train but it isn't as simple as spotting somebody getting on at station X. You have to do the doors and then sort out myriad ticket issues on the train. It's easy to look at it dispassionately on a Web page such as this but harder to do on the ground.

 

[Kendalian]

I and many other Preston area travellers have been aware of this fare anomoly for years before the press eventually caught up. I know of many people who used the "buy from Lancaster travel from Preston" tactic to cut their fare and can name and shame a major international company who has instructed their staff to do this to reduce their expenses.

The vast majority of customers have no wish to avoid paying their fare; but a significant number will fight back against what they (quite rightly IMHO) perceive as unreasonable charges and resort to underhand tactics.

Virgin set the fares and have only themselves to blame for the bad publicity.

 

[MikeWh]

Thats the essence of the problem here, the customer did board at Lancaster. For whatever reason (in the toilet, was overlooked/missed out by the guard/was at the shop was asleep) they missed the ticket check North of Preston that VT claim took place. I personally doubt it would be possible for an entire train to be checked in that length of time. Even if the guard went through asking for "tickets from Lancaster" is it still possible to miss the ticket check and be walked past or overlooked or not hear the request.

What are you talking about. The ticket was checked on the train before Preston. We don't know why it wasn't marked. The same person then refused to believe that they had already seen the ticket before when checked after Preston.

It seems likely that the passenger was remembered more for usually having tickets from Preston (bought in advance) rather than this odd occasion where they drove to Lancaster because the journey was needed at short notice.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Surely the guard/RPI on the train would spot the traveller on board south of Wigan and ask him/her to produce another ticket. If my understanding of previous comments on this thread is correct, would not production of a 2nd ticket with Lancaster stated as the origin, where such a ticket is not valid for joining at a subsequent station, be fraudulent? Would not all passengers actually joining at Lancaster have had their tickets checked and stamped/clipped north of Preston, so production of a unstamped/unclipped ticket south of Wigan would look suspicious?

This whole thread exists because given the facts available on board staff got mixed up between a passenger who joined at Lancaster and assumed he'd boarded at Preston. Therefore given the available facts on board ticket checks are by no means perfect......

 

[Gareth Marston]

I and many other Preston area travellers have been aware of this fare anomoly for years before the press eventually caught up. I know of many people who used the "buy from Lancaster travel from Preston" tactic to cut their fare and can name and shame a major international company who has instructed their staff to do this to reduce their expenses.

The vast majority of customers have no wish to avoid paying their fare; but a significant number will fight back against what they (quite rightly IMHO) perceive as unreasonable charges and resort to underhand tactics.

Virgin set the fares and have only themselves to blame for the bad publicity.

Indeed its Virgins own pricing structure that causes people trying to look for ways round it.

 

[miami]

I think there lies a problem that the BTP rely on the revenue staff to explain what the problem is when often it is the TOC revenue staff who do not have a clue and the customer is in the right. Until things change, the TOCs will continue to use the BTP to their advantage and as a method to work against the innocent passenger to make them feel intimidated and like the lesser person, when they have done nothing wrong.

I stand by my comments though that VT have broken their contract here and need to offer much more (yes I am talking a cash sum) to the passenger then some poxy free tickets.

In the situation where staff who, through poor training or deliberate fraud, believe a ticket is invalid despite when it is, in taking a name, address and ticket details and let the passeneger be on their way within a couple of minutes. In no circumstances should the passenger be detained for longer than a couple of minutes, or be denied boarding, or be forced to miss their train

In that situation well trained staff can then issue an apology and perhaps a free ticket in compensation for the embarassment and hastle.

However if those central staff still believe the ticket is invalid, or if the passenger was delayed by over 5 minutes, or denied boarding, and in fact the ticket is valid, that's when the massive fines should come in -- at least twice the amount being demanded (which in this case would be about £350), but preferably far more (say 10 times)

In practice, the train staff may be viewed as a 'credible witness' and his testimony may be accepted as true, unless the passenger can prove otherwise.

It wouldn't even be enough to say the passenger boarded at Preston, you'd have to ensure they hadn't arrived on an earlier train from Lancaster.

 

[gray1404]

What are you talking about. The ticket was checked on the train before Preston. We don't know why it wasn't marked. The same person then refused to believe that they had already seen the ticket before when checked after Preston.

It seems likely that the passenger was remembered more for usually having tickets from Preston (bought in advance) rather than this odd occasion where they drove to Lancaster because the journey was needed at short notice.

Applogies Mike I was under the impression that the person missed the ticket check before Preston and then when another ticket check was carried out after Preston they were accused of only boarding at Preston because the ticket had not been marked.

Also, I believe there is a crew change at Preston so I think it would be a different guard before Preston and another after.

I am a little confused by your paragraph sorry, that start "It seems likely...." could you clarify what you are getting at here? Thanks!

 

[thedbdiboy]

Indeed its Virgins own pricing structure that causes people trying to look for ways round it.

It's actually British Rail's fares structure embedded in the the regulatory matrix. A pretty large number of fare anomalies can be traced back to one or another piece of 1995 regulation that the DfT hasn't updated.

 

[Hadders]

It's actually British Rail's fares structure embedded in the the regulatory matrix. A pretty large number of fare anomalies can be traced back to one or another piece of 1995 regulation that the DfT hasn't updated.

I agree but apologies for repeating myself again but when the DfT/RDG/Virgin get the regulation updated we'll end up with:

- Fares from Lancaster and points further north increasing
- Fares from Preston and points further south decreasing

Not hard to see which one will happen. And it'll all be dressed up a simplification which is what passengers want.

 

[sheff1]

It's actually British Rail's fares structure embedded in the the regulatory matrix.

I think the Lancaster/Preston issue has little to do with BR's fares structure but far more to do with the changes that I outlined in post #84.

If the first train on which the Off Peak could be used had not been changed (or had been changed in step) there would be no benefit is buying a Lancaster, as opposed to a Preston, ticket.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It's actually British Rail's fares structure embedded in the the regulatory matrix. A pretty large number of fare anomalies can be traced back to one or another piece of 1995 regulation that the DfT hasn't updated.

As far as I can see, there's nothing in fares regulation that requires Virgin to

1. have such stringent peak restrictions on the Preston to London Off-Peak Return
2. have much less stringent peak restrictions from Lancaster compared to Preston
3. have the Preston to London Anytime Return priced at such an expensive level

Isn't it in Virgin's power to change any of these situations? They could add more restrictions on the Lancaster fare, reduce the restrictions on the Preston fare, or reduce the Preston Anytime fare to a level where there wasn't such a "price cliff" compared to the Off-Peak fare.

The situation may have been inherited from British Rail, but there are seem to be plenty of options for Virgin to normalise it.