EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Pyreneenguy]

Umm... umm... I'm generally on the pro-EU, pro-migration side of the debate, but even I can see that continually importing people to support the fact that people live longer is not sustainable in the long term. What do you do when all the people you've imported grow old and need care/someone to pay for their pensions? Import more people to care for them? Ultimately as people live longer, we're going to have to face difficult choices about either the retirement age or the level of taxation needed to support old people, or the need for some kind of separate social/pensions insurance. Perhaps some immigration can help in the short term (because of issues around the fact that Governments in the past made commitments to existing pensioners or people approaching retirement, which people would expect to be honoured), but it can't be a long term solution.

Also, I think your argument makes the same mistake that so many people on the anti-immigration side make: Of treating immigrants not as human beings, but as commodities to be imported only as long as they are useful to 'us'. Hopefully the moral issues around that kind of argument are obvious!

I'm just glad I decided to live outside the U.K. Fueling growth with immigration is like a time-bomb, pushing up rents and house prices whilst pulling pay and conditions downwards.There are cries for building on the green-belt but what about quality of life when it disappears under miles upon miles of concrete, bricks and tarmac ? It's an all win situation for those who are already comfortably off but a disaster for the upcoming generation who will look back on what their parent's and grandparent's had with envious eyes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are plenty of cities in places much more inhospitable.

Ever see last winters shipping forecasts, that had Beaufort Scale readings of 10, 11 and 12 around the north western coastal areas of Scotland? Not many inland areas experienced these readings. on such the same scale of regularity.

 

[najaB]

Where are all these ten million new jobs suddenly appearing from, who will be offering such vast scales of employment, what types of jobs will there be?

The most recent ONS numbers show some 750,000 job vacancies currently. If EU immigration is cut to the levels that some people want that number will only increase. Throw in the effects of an ageing population (EU immigrants tend to be younger and have larger families than native-born UK citizens) and it's not hard to believe that there could be several million vacancies ten or twenty years hence.

 

[HSTEd]

Where are all these ten million new jobs suddenly appearing from, who will be offering such vast scales of employment, what types of jobs will there be?

Well a very large number of them would be catering to the needs of these ten million extra people.
Teachers and the staff at the inevitable university would reach over a hundred thousand alone, easily.
Shop workers, restaurant workers, various forms of utility worker and civil staff would be the largest part of the employment in this city.

Relatively few jobs in the modern economy are dependant on natural resources or similar, so if you have more people you can employ more people.

More importantly, why are these ten million new jobs not already here now? Are we waiting for the Genie of the Lamp or the Tooth Fairy or Merlin the Wizard to create them overnight...:roll:

Well if you can create ten million people most of those jobs would appear overnight.
But really the argument is about creating a locus of employment that can match London on something approaching equal terms, if you build housing for ten million extra people then restrictions on immigration becoome somewhat unnecessary.

Ever see last winters shipping forecasts, that had Beaufort Scale readings of 10, 11 and 12 around the north western coastal areas of Scotland? Not many inland areas experienced these readings. on such the same scale of regularity.

Yes, but there are cities in areas that get hit with Force 12 with surprising regularity.
For example Miami is an obvious example.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, but there are cities in areas that get hit with Force 12 with surprising regularity. For example Miami is an obvious example.

Perhaps I may not have understood the gist of the current line of thought on the thread which I assumed was solely concerned with Britain.

Miami way well suffer as you say, being usually the coastal area to where hurricanes make landfall, but that is nothing to do with Britain.

One may accept parts of Siberia and Antarctica have spells of extremely low "minus" temperature readings, but that is naught to do with Britain.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well a very large number of them would be catering to the needs of these ten million extra people. Teachers and the staff at the inevitable university would reach over a hundred thousand alone, easily. Shop workers, restaurant workers, various forms of utility worker and civil staff would be the largest part of the employment in this city. Relatively few jobs in the modern economy are dependant on natural resources or similar, so if you have more people you can employ more people.

Well if you can create ten million people most of those jobs would appear overnight. But really the argument is about creating a locus of employment that can match London on something approaching equal terms, if you build housing for ten million extra people then restrictions on immigration becoome somewhat unnecessary.

I await the Momentum movement soon to make it clear how they would achieve all that is hoped for and of the time scale they envisage for it to take. Perhaps the Blessed Jeremy will grace the Parliamentary benches by explaining matters in a way that only he can.

 

[furnessvale]

Isn't part of the point of Brexit to "impose unnecessary restrictions on movement between our countries"?

Nearly correct. Just an "un" too many!

 

[furnessvale]

The UK won't be a member, so will have to play by the same rules as everyone else. Nothing vindictive about it.

Indeed. Another example of EU inflexibility that it is unable to discriminate between the UK and, say, Iraq in terms of potential threats.

One size does not fit all, even if we are not members of the same club.

 

[Johnuk123]

I can't think of anyone I know that works in public service in London that lives outside Zone 6, and that includes nurses, midwives, paramedics, police officers, teachers and civil servants

In Peterborough and Huntingdon alone there are hundreds of Met Police London Fire brigade, Paramedics, NHS, prison officers etc etc who commute to London.In my small village in the fens I know of several people who work in London so you're very wrong.
The Anglia tv news did a survey a couple of years ago at P'boro and Huntingdon stations and loads of the daily London commuters were in the jobs above.

 

[najaB]

Indeed. Another example of EU inflexibility that it is unable to discriminate between the UK and, say, Iraq in terms of potential threats.

There is nothing special about UK citizens that prevents them from being a threat.

 

[Johnuk123]

Luckily being an island we have the advantage of being able to make more space by building out into the sea.

The funny thing is I think you're serious.

 

[furnessvale]

There is nothing special about UK citizens that prevents them from being a threat.

If you really believe that then you should be a committed Brexiter as the same must certainly apply to the rest of the EU.

 

[EM2]

...so you're very wrong.

How can I be very wrong when I explicitly stated 'anyone I know'? I don't doubt that they exist, but I don't know any.

 

[najaB]

If you really believe that then you should be a committed Brexiter as the same must certainly apply to the rest of the EU.

7/7/2005 - three of the four were British born citizens.

 

[Johnuk123]

How can I be very wrong when I explicitly stated 'anyone I know'? I don't doubt that they exist, but I don't know any.

But anybody with an ounce of sense knows that thousands and thousands of public sector workers commute into London daily some from well over 100 miles out.

You not knowing any is pretty irrelevant.

 

[EM2]

But anybody with an ounce of sense knows that thousands and thousands of public sector workers commute into London daily some from well over 100 miles out.

You not knowing any is pretty irrelevant.

And thousands and thousands of them do it from within the six Zones, so when clappers states that 'much of greater London is financially inaccessible to anyone is [sic] public service', are they 'very wrong'?

 

[Howardh]

Surely not a return to the idea of crannogs that were built in the Neolithic period, but on an ever undreamt of massive scale or perhaps an idealistic massive reef construction around St Kilda...:roll:

What do you then do when winter storms of ferocious density roar through these settlements and neither planes, helicopters or vessels can make landings?

Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to have affected the Dutch too badly who have built a large part of their country into the sea

We can do the same, we have the space, Morecambe Bay and The Wash are two such low-lying tidal areas which are little different from Ijsselmeer, and out in the North Sea we have the Dogger Bank which could be dyked and drained. If Boris wanted to put an airport on a new island....

Sounds like a plausible idea to me, as apposed to your rather oddball suggestions...

 

[Howardh]

The funny thing is I think you're serious.

Deadly. See above post.

If Morecambe Bay was drained you would have more direct access to Barrow across a dam, the option to create fresh-water lakes out of the reclaimed land, a tidal barrier for electricity and current rivers entering the bay would be diverted around the reclaimed areas. The Dutch did it donkey's years ago...

The UK and Japan are about the same size, Japan about 10-15% bigger. Japan has a population of 127m, and suffers from frequent earthquakes. In comparison, the odd gale @ Cape Wrath seems very acceptable!!

 

[Howardh]

I note the word "HAS" above in your posting and obviously you have the economic wherewithal to lay your plans before the Government of the day, perhaps even seeing you address a Select Committee where you can hold steady against the strongest questioning. It is when the Treasury gets wind of your aspirations that then you will see that not all aspirations ever see the light of day.

Motto for the day
Do not ask for reality and realism, as a refusal often offends.

And your option to pay for all the elderly is...??

 

[miami]

There are plenty of cities in places much more inhospitable.

Is Luton a city?

Deadly. See above post.

If Morecambe Bay was drained you would have more direct access to Barrow across a dam, the option to create fresh-water lakes out of the reclaimed land, a tidal barrier for electricity and current rivers entering the bay would be diverted around the reclaimed areas. The Dutch did it donkey's years ago...

But why would you do that. Someone mentioned Hong Kong upthread. With a population density of Hong Kong the population of the UK would be 1.6 billion.

For those who think there's something morally wrong with people from saw Poland or Latvia working in London, I assume the same applies to people from Grimsby or Aberystwyth. Would those people be in favour of bureaucratic barriers to migration internal to the UK?

If not, why not?

 

[miami]

And your option to pay for all the elderly is...??

Logan's Run perhaps?

 

[Howardh]

Logan's Run perhaps?

Makes you wonder why the government wants to stop everyone smoking, drinking and breathing in diesel fumes

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to have affected the Dutch too badly who have built a large part of their country into the sea

We can do the same, we have the space, Morecambe Bay and The Wash are two such low-lying tidal areas which are little different from Ijsselmeer, and out in the North Sea we have the Dogger Bank which could be dyked and drained. If Boris wanted to put an airport on a new island....

The North Sea floods of 1953 took a toll on the reclaimed polder lands of Zeeland, South Holland and Brabant in the Netherlands, with a death toll of 1,835 and 70,000 people evacuated away from those areas as an emergency. No less than 9% of the farmland was submerged with salt borne sea water and a death toll of 30,000 animals was recorded.

Who is to say this will never occur again. Look how the North Sea enters from the north in a much narrower area that to the south of it which then can lead to natural tidal disasters occurring.

 

[furnessvale]

7/7/2005 - three of the four were British born citizens.

Noted that you have to go back over 11 years to quote that one.

As compared to the many attacks elsewhere in the EU. I can't be bothered analysing which of those were committed by persons legally within the EU as opposed to illegal immigrants, but I think enough were legally resident to demonstrate that the threat is greater towards the UK rather than from the UK.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Logan's Run perhaps?

Even in the dim past that saw me less than 30 years of age, I never recall ever seeing a strange item in the palm of my hand, let alone one that commenced to give pulses of light. The only "carousel" that I recall in those far-off days would have been the one at Belle View entertainment gardens and zoo, that closed down a long time ago.

 

[miami]

Noted that you have to go back over 11 years to quote that one.

Could you name a more recent terror attack, or indeed any attack, in the UK, committed by an EU, Non UK, Non Irish citizen?

 

[EM2]

I think enough were legally resident to demonstrate that the threat is greater towards the UK rather than from the UK.

How many migrated from elsewhere in the EU? It's very likely to be very, very low.
Brexit will not affect non-EU migration in the slightest.

 

[Howardh]

Noted that you have to go back over 11 years to quote that one.

As compared to the many attacks elsewhere in the EU. I can't be bothered analysing which of those were committed by persons legally within the EU as opposed to illegal immigrants, but I think enough were legally resident to demonstrate that the threat is greater towards the UK rather than from the UK.

Just out of interest, since the London bombings, how many terrorist attacks have been made in the UK (which have resulted in death or loss of limbs/something similar) by EU legal citizens?

Not trying to make a point, just interested in the figures as I haven't a clue - if pressed I'd say none, but I might be very wrong.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And your option to pay for all the elderly is...??

I, being always of sound mind and body (well, up to the stroke in 2012), made the maximum private pension contributions provision that my employers also made valuable employers contributions to. That is personal responsibility and my good lady wife who was also a senior personage until retirement in a Friendly Society took similar actions. I categorically will not be drawn into any debate on any other personal monetary matters that are dealt with by my brokers, though there are some website members who harbour certain suspicions. Doesn't everyone live in an 18thC six bedroom property with outbuildings and a paddock in the rural part of the Cheshire Golden Triangle...

I am not a statesman nor am I a member of Parliament and it is to those people to whom you address your query above, as this is something that comes under their remit.

 

[Howardh]

I am not a statesman nor am I a member of Parliament and it is to those people to whom you address your query above, as this is something that comes under their remit.

You and I both have one vote, but we both are able to put our suggestions to our MP's. I have done that in the past, not sure what effect it had (other than none) but at least they listened!