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Commuters stuck on train for 3 hours outside Leeds (22/05)

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syorksdeano

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Not sure if this has been posted

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-eng...scued-from-broken-train-after-three-hour-wait

Passengers in West Yorkshire have been rescued after being stranded on a train for more than three hours.
The service from Ilkley broke down outside Leeds station just after 09:00 BST.
Some commuters complained that train operator Northern Rail had been slow to provide water. The company said it was investigating the causes of the incident and said it "believed there was an issue with the overhead power lines, possibly as a result of vandalism".
 
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Tetchytyke

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...and they wonder why passengers get fed up and detrain themselves.

This is one of the routes that they want to get rid of guards on, too...
 

bradders1983

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Surely there is no acceptable excuse for it taking THREE HOURS to detrain these poor folk?
It happened a few hundred yards outside of one of the major train stations in the country, ffs.
 

theageofthetra

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Surely there is no acceptable excuse for it taking THREE HOURS to detrain these poor folk?
It happened a few hundred yards outside of one of the major train stations in the country, ffs.

I agree this is completely unacceptable. It is a matter of time before an uncontrolled pax evacuation occurs and someone is killed or seriously injured. Then something might actually be done.
 

ainsworth74

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From what I am aware of it was quite a considerable period of time into the three hours before it became clear that they only choice was to detrain the passengers. Prior to that several other actions (including fitters and rescue units) were tried and all failed. Once it was clear that it was not going to be possible to get the effected unit into Leeds detraining the passengers was swiftly arranged by all accounts.
 

M!T

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I traveled from Bingley to Manchester Airport (via Leeds) by rail on Sunday 14 May. One wonders what would have happened had such a delay occurred then and cost me my flight, especially as the next flight out wasn't until the day I was due to return. They really should de-train people asap after initially establishing that there isn't an imminent means of getting the train moving again instead of faffing around for three hours trying everything else first!
 

GW43125

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I traveled from Bingley to Manchester Airport (via Leeds) by rail on Sunday 14 May. One wonders what would have happened had such a delay occurred then and cost me my flight, especially as the next flight out wasn't until the day I was due to return. They really should de-train people asap after initially establishing that there isn't an imminent means of getting the train moving again instead of faffing around for three hours trying everything else first!

Detraining is a pain in the arse to get everyone in the right place and lines blocked to carry it out in a controlled manner, it's understandable (to me at least) if they'd rather try to fix the unit if they can.
 

Bantamzen

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Detraining is a pain in the arse to get everyone in the right place and lines blocked to carry it out in a controlled manner, it's understandable (to me at least) if they'd rather try to fix the unit if they can.

Whilst three hours does seem a long time, and I'm sure even my patience would have worn thin, detraining in a busy area such as to the west of Leeds must be a logistical nightmare. Most of the peaks down from Ilkley are well loaded, and it would be a job and a half to shepherd a few hundred people to safety or another unit without people inadvertently wandering off onto unblocked lines.

I can remember being stuck near to Apperley Bridge many years ago when the train struck a person on the Leeds bound line. Because of the isolated position, and the winter darkness, it took around two and a half hours for the necessary checks to be made and to get a relief driver to the unit. Sometimes things like this just happen, and safety has to be first and foremost. I guess it might have helped the situation if Northern could have organised some water being brought to the train, a packed 333 with no air-con running soon warms up as many of us have found out over the years.
 

3141

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From what I am aware of it was quite a considerable period of time into the three hours before it became clear that they only choice was to detrain the passengers. Prior to that several other actions (including fitters and rescue units) were tried and all failed. Once it was clear that it was not going to be possible to get the effected unit into Leeds detraining the passengers was swiftly arranged by all accounts.

I think this brings out the dilemma facing the railway in these situations. It certainly makes sense to focus first on trying to get the train moving again. When the initial approach hasn't worked, do you then try another one? At what point do you decide that detraining is the option to follow?

There was a case 2 or 3 years ago of a GWR HST somewhere near Pusey, which went on for some hours as successive approaches were tried but couldn't be completed, for various reasons.

It seems to me that a TOC should have plans for getting water to the stranded passengers. Naturally the first hope is that a fitter will solve the problem, but experience shows that the first approach may not work, nor may the next one, so the passengers could be stuck for hours and it's therefore better to organise the supplies they may need, even if in the end they don't actually need them, rather than leave it till they seriously do.
 

thejuggler

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I traveled from Bingley to Manchester Airport (via Leeds) by rail on Sunday 14 May. One wonders what would have happened had such a delay occurred then and cost me my flight, especially as the next flight out wasn't until the day I was due to return. They really should de-train people asap after initially establishing that there isn't an imminent means of getting the train moving again instead of faffing around for three hours trying everything else first!

Mishaps happen that's why travel insurance exists. You can then claim on your travel insurance for a missed flight due to a problem getting to the airport.
 

wellhouse

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From what I am aware of it was quite a considerable period of time into the three hours before it became clear that they only choice was to detrain the passengers. Prior to that several other actions (including fitters and rescue units) were tried and all failed. Once it was clear that it was not going to be possible to get the effected unit into Leeds detraining the passengers was swiftly arranged by all accounts.

A friend of mine was on board. It seems they were stranded very close to Whitehall Junction, near the new Yorkshire Post building. The rescue train was not a Class 333, and passengers were evacuated by ladder rather than ramps
 

MichaelAMW

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From what I am aware of it was quite a considerable period of time into the three hours before it became clear that they only choice was to detrain the passengers. Prior to that several other actions (including fitters and rescue units) were tried and all failed. Once it was clear that it was not going to be possible to get the effected unit into Leeds detraining the passengers was swiftly arranged by all accounts.

I think you are contradicting yourself there. Once a relatively short amount of time has passed the first priority should be passengers getting on their way. If you've let a considerable period of that three hours go by then you've already gone way beyond the point at which detraining becomes the next move. "Several other actions" being available, which might take a long time to implement, doesn't mean the sweltering workers of Leeds should just have to wait until detraining becomes the only option left.
 

Andyh82

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The passengers, probably a couple of hundred, were taken off by ladder and then made to board another unit, also by ladder. Could they not a brought a train up alongside and used a walk way from door to door?
 

bb21

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I think you are contradicting yourself there. Once a relatively short amount of time has passed the first priority should be passengers getting on their way. If you've let a considerable period of that three hours go by then you've already gone way beyond the point at which detraining becomes the next move. "Several other actions" being available, which might take a long time to implement, doesn't mean the sweltering workers of Leeds should just have to wait until detraining becomes the only option left.

Obviously you have not been involved in such an operation or are aware of the implications of such an evacuation. It is very easy for an assessment of "20 more minutes" to drag on little by little, and before you know it, it could have been a couple of hours down the line.

The passengers on the train will not be the only consideration. A decision on evacuation should not be taken lightly, and only as a last resort, especially at a busy place like Leeds. Unnecessary evacuations can result in massive disruptions across huge swathes of the country and delay a significant number of passengers.

The welfare of passengers onboard should be taken into account, and treated with priority, but they are by no means the only ones whose needs should be taken into consideration. I agree with someone earlier who mentioned that consideration should be given to bring supplies to the stranded vehicles as soon as reasonably practicable, but I do not agree with your assertion that "Once a relatively short amount of time has passed the first priority should be passengers getting on their way". It is one of the considerations, not the only one.
 

yorksrob

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Out of interest, has an evacuation ever been achieved from a unit with end vestibule connections by backing up another unit with such connections ? (albeit an option not available with a 333).
 

MichaelAMW

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Obviously you have not been involved in such an operation or are aware of the implications of such an evacuation. It is very easy for an assessment of "20 more minutes" to drag on little by little, and before you know it, it could have been a couple of hours down the line.

You've hit the nail on the head of my point here! The way things are dealt with should be to appreciate that all those "20 more minutes" are actually cumulative for the passenger so you aim to avoid a "drag on little by little" result that means being stuck for three hours very close to the safety of a platform.

The passengers on the train will not be the only consideration. A decision on evacuation should not be taken lightly, and only as a last resort, especially at a busy place like Leeds. Unnecessary evacuations can result in massive disruptions across huge swathes of the country and delay a significant number of passengers.

But what constitutes a last resort? If a fitter tells you that the brake controller is knackered and if it's replaced everything will be fine, but it will take five hours, does that mean the passengers have to wait? That's an awful long time when you're only 5 minutes walk from the station.

The welfare of passengers onboard should be taken into account, and treated with priority, but they are by no means the only ones whose needs should be taken into consideration. I agree with someone earlier who mentioned that consideration should be given to bring supplies to the stranded vehicles as soon as reasonably practicable, but I do not agree with your assertion that "Once a relatively short amount of time has passed the first priority should be passengers getting on their way". It is one of the considerations, not the only one.

No, it's vital - literally - to consider evacuation if you strand people to the point they get off the train of their own accord; a busy load of commuters close to their destination might come to that conclusion a bit too soon.

I'm not stupid: I appreciate that the situation the OP describes is a very difficult one to deal with, and I'm well aware that the safest place is on the train. However, there's a human side to this that doesn't seem to get much priority.
 

bb21

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You've hit the nail on the head of my point here! The way things are dealt with should be to appreciate that all those "20 more minutes" are actually cumulative for the passenger so you aim to avoid a "drag on little by little" result that means being stuck for three hours very close to the safety of a platform.

The problem is that when an assessment of "20 minutes" comes in, it is almost a no brainer that it would be better to wait it out and see. Most problems resolve themselves within that time scale. The proportion of incidents which result in bigger issues is tiny.

Detraining a few hundred people will effectively shut half of Leeds station throat, if not more, for an extended period of time.

But what constitutes a last resort? If a fitter tells you that the brake controller is knackered and if it's replaced everything will be fine, but it will take five hours, does that mean the passengers have to wait? That's an awful long time when you're only 5 minutes walk from the station.

No. If the fitter assesses that the problem will take 5 hours to fix, then it is clearly time to look for alternative arrangements.

There is no "one size fit all" threshold. Different factors would need to be taken into account to assess the most appropriate course of action including weather, temperature, location, vulnerability of passengers onboard, general mood, etc.

No, it's vital - literally - to consider evacuation if you strand people to the point they get off the train of their own accord; a busy load of commuters close to their destination might come to that conclusion a bit too soon.

See above. You make your decision on the consideration of a range of factors.

I'm not stupid: I appreciate that the situation the OP describes is a very difficult one to deal with, and I'm well aware that the safest place is on the train. However, there's a human side to this that doesn't seem to get much priority.

You clearly know more than I do, I suppose, and are of course involved in the decision making process during this incident. Silly me.
 

Bungle965

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The fact that the 333s did not couple with each other properly does not come as the greatest of surprises, I think they are only coupled (or attempted) with one another in exceptional circumstances.
Sam
 

M!T

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The fact that the 333s did not couple with each other properly does not come as the greatest of surprises, I think they are only coupled (or attempted) with one another in exceptional circumstances.
Sam
I've seen 333s coupled together on previous occasions - each time a failed unit being dragged by a live one - though I'm not sure how often it happens.
 

3141

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You clearly know more than I do, I suppose, and are of course involved in the decision making process during this incident. Silly me.

I think most of your post was very sensible, but not the last point. MichaelAMW is right: there is a human element, and not everyone will sit meekly on the train while time goes by and various attempts to sort the problem fail to do it, especially if, as in this case, a station is very close.

If there are many factors that those dealing with the situation want to take into account, including the greater disruption to a larger number of passengers over a wider area if they detrain the people from the unit that's broken down, they will need to explain their thinking to those on board, and take action to alleviate the problems they may be experiencing - providing water, in this case. If they don't do those things they will give the impression that it's being handled in the interests of the railway, and some passengers will look for their own solution.
 

MichaelAMW

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The problem is that when an assessment of "20 minutes" comes in, it is almost a no brainer that it would be better to wait it out and see. Most problems resolve themselves within that time scale. The proportion of incidents which result in bigger issues is tiny.

Detraining a few hundred people will effectively shut half of Leeds station throat, if not more, for an extended period of time.



No. If the fitter assesses that the problem will take 5 hours to fix, then it is clearly time to look for alternative arrangements.

There is no "one size fit all" threshold. Different factors would need to be taken into account to assess the most appropriate course of action including weather, temperature, location, vulnerability of passengers onboard, general mood, etc.



See above. You make your decision on the consideration of a range of factors.



You clearly know more than I do, I suppose, and are of course involved in the decision making process during this incident. Silly me.

I read your answer with interest until I saw your stupid sarcastic last line.
 

GW43125

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Out of interest, has an evacuation ever been achieved from a unit with end vestibule connections by backing up another unit with such connections ? (albeit an option not available with a 333).

Yes, it's the preferred method to detrain a desiro or 458 down here.

In fact, I think there was once an incident which involved a 15x rescuing from a 450 in this manner after the power had been off for almost four hours.
 
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GW43125

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Cheers, it seems like the best idea but I'd never heard of it happening on here.

I should add to this that this is purely from my own observations, not official, that where possible they've brought up another unit. It even led in one case (as mentioned above) to a 450-load of pax being decamped to a 15x via the gangways. I should probably have said "it seems to be" rather than "it is"
 

455driver

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They really should de-train people asap after initially establishing that there isn't an imminent means of getting the train moving again instead of faffing around for three hours trying everything else first!
How many lines need to be blocked?
What length of OHLE needs de-energising?
Where are they going to be evacuated too (position of safety)?
What route will they take to get there?
What are the hazards on the route?
How many passengers are there?
How many staff do you have on site?
How many passengers will you be taking at a time 10, 20, all of them?
How many staff are you going to use to evacuate and how many are you going to leave with the remaining passengers on the train?
Once you have got some passengers to the position of safety, how many staff do you leave with them?

Have you ever walked on ballast, it isnt easy in the correct footwear but what about passengers with inappropriate footwear?
What happens if they get injured as they are evacuated?

Plus many more questions I could ask!
 

bb21

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I think most of your post was very sensible, but not the last point. MichaelAMW is right: there is a human element, and not everyone will sit meekly on the train while time goes by and various attempts to sort the problem fail to do it, especially if, as in this case, a station is very close.

If there are many factors that those dealing with the situation want to take into account, including the greater disruption to a larger number of passengers over a wider area if they detrain the people from the unit that's broken down, they will need to explain their thinking to those on board, and take action to alleviate the problems they may be experiencing - providing water, in this case. If they don't do those things they will give the impression that it's being handled in the interests of the railway, and some passengers will look for their own solution.

I already agreed that the needs of those onboard should be taken into account. There is no dispute over this.

Coming on to your point about explaining the decision-making process, it needs to be handled carefully as it may or may not have the desired effect. Commuters are a delicate bunch. Telling them that they are not going to be getting on their merry ways because it causes disruption to others is not necessarily going to go down well, and could make the whole situation worse. These things are better left to onboard staff to evaluate, and potentially better communicated to individual passengers should the issue be raised, if they see fit. Of course we have no way of knowing what was said onboard, and what went through the minds of those with decision-making responsibilities in this incident. There may be things that could have been done better, there may not. Until an investigation or review is completed and results published (which may or may not happen), none of us will really know.

Generally in my experience, most train crew are fairly good at explaining what the next step is planned to be, should they be aware of such information. It doesn't mean that was the case here, but again none of us knows.

The problem with perception is that people interpret things differently. I agree that being completely open about things is often better, but extreme care must be exercised in many cases as human psychology works in strange ways sometimes.

In my opinion it is very rich for someone to sit in front of the keyboard and just criticise, when it has already been explained by several people how things could pan out and may not have been what they appeared to be like, however I think I probably did overreact a little, so for that, I offer my apologies.
 

rebmcr

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In my opinion it is very rich for someone to sit in front of the keyboard and just criticise, when it has already been explained by several people how things could pan out and may not have been what they appeared to be like, however I think I probably did overreact a little, so for that, I offer my apologies.

I think the crux of the matter here is the difference in perspectives; this piece of information from your previous post seemed obvious to you but the incident was being discussed in isolation by the laypeople.

Most problems resolve themselves within that time scale. The proportion of incidents which result in bigger issues is tiny.

If the conventional course of action that caused this 3 hours, actually saved/saves 1000s of hours in past and future events, then obviously it should continue to be the case.
 

bb21

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I think the crux of the matter here is the difference in perspectives; this piece of information from your previous post seemed obvious to you but the incident was being discussed in isolation by the laypeople.

You are right in that respect I suppose. If there are things I can explain and ideas to exchange I am always happy to do that.

It does however annoy me hugely even after explaining that multiple things will need to be taken into account and how easily incidents can evolve, people still jump in with accusations that "there's a human side to this that doesn't seem to get much priority", as if railway staff exist as robots and have no compassion or empathy for those affected.

If the conventional course of action that caused this 3 hours, actually saved/saves 1000s of hours in past and future events, then obviously it should continue to be the case.

It offers no comfort to the small number of people (in the grand scheme of things) directly affected, but it goes down to a question of greater good. Mood onboard is also always one factor which is taken into account in deciding what further planned actions were going to be carried out, as anyone with access to incident logs will likely know.

The "human side" very much gets one of the highest priorities in the aftermath of an incident, especially ones likely to cause significant disruption. It does not mean everyone gets it right every time, but the mechanism and emphasis is very much there, even if it does not feel like it sometimes.
 

GW43125

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Have you ever walked on ballast, it isnt easy in the correct footwear but what about passengers with inappropriate footwear?
What happens if they get injured as they are evacuated?
!

I've walked round a depot in boots with fairly thick soles and it hurts, I hate to think what it's be like in trainers etc.
 
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