'End of the line for first class'

[Silver Cobra]

I know you can't alight a northbound VTWC train at Watford Junction and you can't board one going south, but are there any other instances of this? Stevenage on VTEC? St. Alban's on the MML? (Do EMT even stop there?) Reading on GWR?

There are no restrictions on pick-up only northbound/set-down only southbound with VTEC at Stevenage, as far as I am aware. Heck, VTEC actually sell fares specifically for travelling only with them between Stevenage and Kings Cross (one example from BRFares), so it would be rather silly for such restrictions to be in place while these fares exist.

 

[JStrainspotter]

I know you can't alight a northbound VTWC train at Watford Junction and you can't board one going south, but are there any other instances of this? Stevenage on VTEC? St. Alban's on the MML? (Do EMT even stop there?) Reading on GWR?

No Restrictions on Stevenage, check KX-Stevenage Fares!

EMT don't stop at St Albans and there are certainly no Thameslink restrictions!
There's no restrictions on EMT at Luton Airport Parkway or Luton, having travelled from St Pancras on EMT many times.

Not sure about Reading.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

GWR has some pick-up only stops, such as Slough on the 09.22 from Paddington, and Slough and Reading on the 16.22 (both North Cotswolds services).

 

[boxy321]

Each entitled to an opinion, and Pendolinos have their faults, BUT "horrific"?

I use the Pendolinos a lot and they're ok. A better seat layout and deeper windows would be an improvement, but they do the job.

And since I can get to London Standard Class for free 1st will never seem "cheap" to me!

I meant the environment more than the actual vehicles. Everyone seems down as though they're being shipped to the abbattoir during the morning peak.

 

[sprunt]

I meant the environment more than the actual vehicles. Everyone seems down as though they're being shipped to the abbattoir during the morning peak.

Or as it's also known, "the office". Nobody wants to be there in the morning peak.

 

[Deepgreen]

I boarded the 1940 Victoria to Horsham, via Redhill, at Victoria yesterday and first class at the rear was sprinkled with people who clearly had no first class tickets. Very unusually, a ticket inspector boarded before we had even left and told them to leave first class. They did, and stood in the vestibule for a couple of minutes before they all came back in and sat down. I challenged them and was met with blank faces and surliness along the lines of; "what's it got to do with you?" I told them they were, effectively, stealing, but to no avail. One young guy, who was obviously very fit and able, told me he couldn't stand up as it was too crowded (utter rubbish). I made it abundantly clear what I thought of him and he was silent. When he got off at East Croydon I told him I hoped his legs recovered soon such that he could stand for fifteen minutes like everyone else. Not a sign of the OBS throughout, and the inspector (who caught several people off guard as she was wearing full Muslim dress) should have issued penalties, rather than just telling them to move.

Depressing.

 

[Bromley boy]

I boarded the 1940 Victoria to Horsham, via Redhill, at Victoria yesterday and first class at the rear was sprinkled with people who clearly had no first class tickets. Very unusually, a ticket inspector boarded before we had even left and told them to leave first class. They did, and stood in the vestibule for a couple of minutes before they all came back in and sat down. I challenged them and was met with blank faces and surliness along the lines of; "what's it got to do with you?" I told them they were, effectively, stealing, but to no avail. One young guy, who was obviously very fit and able, told me he couldn't stand up as it was too crowded (utter rubbish). I made it abundantly clear what I thought of him and he was silent. When he got off at East Croydon I told him I hoped his legs recovered soon such that he could stand for fifteen minutes like everyone else. Not a sign of the OBS throughout, and the inspector (who caught several people off guard as she was wearing full Muslim dress) should have issued penalties, rather than just telling them to move.

Depressing.

I appreciate the sentiment and the frustration, but I would urge you not to confront people in this manner. I've seen some very nasty altercations on the railway, usually over trivial issues, which rapidly descend into violence.

Quite a few "characters" will not take too kindly to someone telling them what they think of them, even if that person has right on their side. Especially if they have mental health issues/criminal tendencies etc.

The trouble is, these days, you don't know who will respond reasonably and who will punch you/stab you/chuck acid into your face (delete as appropriate).

 

[BestWestern]

I appreciate the sentiment and the frustration, but I would urge you not to confront people in this manner. I've seen some very nasty altercations on the railway, usually over trivial issues, which rapidly descend into violence.

Quite a few "characters" will not take too kindly to someone telling them what they think of them, even if that person has right on their side. Especially if they have mental health issues/criminal tendencies etc.

The trouble is, these days, you don't know who will respond reasonably and who will punch you/stab you/chuck acid into your face (delete as appropriate).

Indeed. With the very greatest of respect to the poster, if the TOC are happy to sell First Class tickets but not to invest some of that income on protecting the product (i.e. providing adequate ticket checks and taking suitable action where appropriate), then the only sensible advice is to stop paying for it - you are being ripped off.

 

[Sprinter153]

One young guy, who was obviously very fit and able, told me he couldn't stand up as it was too crowded (utter rubbish). I made it abundantly clear what I thought of him and he was silent. When he got off at East Croydon I told him I hoped his legs recovered soon such that he could stand for fifteen minutes like everyone else.

There are many reasons why someone who is apparently able-bodied might be unable to stand for a period of time. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I have a number of friends and colleagues with such hidden issues, like MS and fibromyalgia. You wouldn't guess by looking at them but their lives are not easy.

Your generalisation that because it wasn't immediately obvious to you that this person had a disability that it must be a lie is crass and egregious in the extreme.

I hope that I have 'made it abundantly clear what I think'.

 

[otomous]

Personally I'd abolish first class on everything on the old Southern Region. It's too busy to justify dedicating some seats for a few in the peaks now. And it gets rid of this confusion for passengers and poorly trained RPIs as to whether someone can use the first class area on a train with no first class advertised.

The TOCS obviously like them because they bring in big bucks from season ticket holders, who are essentially paying over the odds for a seat reservation nowadays, being offered usually nothing in terms of upgraded comfort in return for their outlay. It's a cynical money grabbing exercise. They've already got your cash, why would they bother paying for RPIs to check that others aren't cheating now?

 

[physics34]

Personally I'd abolish first class on everything on the old Southern Region. It's too busy to justify dedicating some seats for a few in the peaks now. And it gets rid of this confusion for passengers and poorly trained RPIs as to whether someone can use the first class area on a train with no first class advertised.

The TOCS obviously like them because they bring in big bucks from season ticket holders, who are essentially paying over the odds for a seat reservation nowadays, being offered usually nothing in terms of upgraded comfort in return for their outlay. It's a cynical money grabbing exercise. They've already got your cash, why would they bother paying for RPIs to check that others aren't cheating now?

A sad situation because I'm sure First Class still has a place..if it was worth it. Many people especially tourists sit in southern first class because it is exactly the same as standard class

 

[AM9]

... The TOCS obviously like them because they bring in big bucks from season ticket holders, who are essentially paying over the odds for a seat reservation nowadays, being offered usually nothing in terms of upgraded comfort in return for their outlay. It's a cynical money grabbing exercise. They've already got your cash, why would they bother paying for RPIs to check that others aren't cheating now?

Maybe many of them get their season tickets provided by their employer, the cost of which the business could offset against their tax liability. So in fact, the public purse is subsidising that travel 'privilege' however meagre it is.

 

[Deepgreen]

There are many reasons why someone who is apparently able-bodied might be unable to stand for a period of time. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I have a number of friends and colleagues with such hidden issues, like MS and fibromyalgia. You wouldn't guess by looking at them but their lives are not easy.

Your generalisation that because it wasn't immediately obvious to you that this person had a disability that it must be a lie is crass and egregious in the extreme.

I hope that I have 'made it abundantly clear what I think'.

Trust me, there were no issues here - a simple case of yobbishness by a clearly very fit and athletic young man who was taking the p*** (to be blunt), along with two other passengers who just slunk back in as soon as the TTI had gone. Thanks to those who caution against confrontation, but I am well versed in handling these situations (however, of course, no-one is infallible!). Anyhoo - no doubt first class will disappear soon as the laxity of staffing/enforcement wins the day (and I will be taking early retirement anyway).

It's an interesting feature of first class that those who abuse it don't expect those using it genuinely to be so 'un-British' as to challenge them! The shock of that alone is usually enough to set them back, but reminders that they are on CCTV helps. As a last resort, simply manhandling troublemakers away does the trick! However, I take the point from those who caution against physical action - it's a last resort and far from risk-free. The last time I had to resort to this, I was congratulated by some fellow passengers and ignored by the (then) guard - such is the railway today. I'm not proud of it, but sometimes things have to be done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A sad situation because I'm sure First Class still has a place..if it was worth it.

2+1 and 160% of all Standard fares (and no freebies) and I'd use it near enough every time.

The Swiss have the right approach here, and indeed when in CH I often do use it.

 

[gallafent]

Maybe many of them get their season tickets provided by their employer, the cost of which the business could offset against their tax liability. So in fact, the public purse is subsidising that travel 'privilege' however meagre it is.

Surely such a season ticket purchased by an employer for an employee is a benefit in kind, and as such it will go on the P11d, and its user will pay income tax on it, … and income tax > corporation tax generally (certainly for the sorts of incomes that have first class rail travel as an option!), … so in fact it's no different (from a tax perspective) to the employee being paid that much more in real money. Travel to and from “your usual place of business” is not tax-deductible. In fact, then, those using a first class season ticket are “subsidising” the public purse, by paying substantially more tax (either as benefit in kind, or just on the normal income which is then used to buy the ticket) into both the exchequer and the rail industry, than those that pay for second class. Just a thought.

 

[adrock1976]

2+1 and 160% of all Standard fares (and no freebies) and I'd use it near enough every time.

The Swiss have the right approach here, and indeed when in CH I often do use it.

Does Chester station actually have a First Class lounge?

(CH is the postcode area centered around Chester).

 

[adrock1976]

Having dipped in and out of this thread, I would say scrap First Class for all of the former Network SouthEast routes with the following exceptions.

London Waterloo - Exeter St Davids via Salisbury
London Waterloo - Weymouth limited stop
London Victoria - Brighton limited stop (perhaps Govia Thameslink Railway could brand these trains as "The Brighton Belle")
London Victoria - Dover via London, Chatham, & Dover Railway
London Charing Cross - Dover Priory via Southeastern Railway

The above routes I believe are sort of a halfway house between inter regional and traditional Intercity. The above should have catering provision onboard as well.

 

[Taunton]

I boarded the 1940 Victoria to Horsham, via Redhill, at Victoria yesterday and first class at the rear was sprinkled with people who clearly had no first class tickets.

Out of interest, how many genuine first class passengers were in there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The above routes I believe are sort of a halfway house between inter regional and traditional Intercity. The above should have catering provision onboard as well.

So are the LM Crewe services, though I could see the point in scrapping it on the Birmingham services. In some ways I'd like to see the new franchisee upgrade those generally - dedicated ideally end-doored 110mph or even 125mph stock, all 8-car formations, proper 2+1 1st etc.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Having dipped in and out of this thread, I would say scrap First Class for all of the former Network SouthEast routes with the following exceptions.

London Waterloo - Exeter St Davids via Salisbury
London Waterloo - Weymouth limited stop
London Victoria - Brighton limited stop (perhaps Govia Thameslink Railway could brand these trains as "The Brighton Belle")
London Victoria - Dover via London, Chatham, & Dover Railway
London Charing Cross - Dover Priory via Southeastern Railway

The above routes I believe are sort of a halfway house between inter regional and traditional Intercity. The above should have catering provision onboard as well.

That's your opinion. But I've noticed it says you live in Scotrail area. I actually live in the Network South East area and I would almost die if they withdrew First Class! :cry:

 

[adrock1976]

That's your opinion. But I've noticed it says you live in Scotrail area. I actually live in the Network South East area and I would almost die if they withdrew First Class! :cry:

I'm originally from the West Midlands.

The Stourbridge Railway was my local line, with Cradley Heath being my local station.

Local trains in the West Midlands PTE were operated by British Rail on behalf of the PTE. Class 115/116/121 and 150/153 were common. None of the local trains that operated in the West Midlands PTE had First Class at all.

 

[physics34]

Having dipped in and out of this thread, I would say scrap First Class for all of the former Network SouthEast routes with the following exceptions.

London Waterloo - Exeter St Davids via Salisbury
London Waterloo - Weymouth limited stop
London Victoria - Brighton limited stop (perhaps Govia Thameslink Railway could brand these trains as "The Brighton Belle")
London Victoria - Dover via London, Chatham, & Dover Railway
London Charing Cross - Dover Priory via Southeastern Railway

The above routes I believe are sort of a halfway house between inter regional and traditional Intercity. The above should have catering provision onboard as well.

Victoria to Brighton, but not Victoria to Eastbourne/Hastings/Portsmouth/Bognor/Littlehampton/Southampton?????

 

[physics34]

2+1 and 160% of all Standard fares (and no freebies) and I'd use it near enough every time.

The Swiss have the right approach here, and indeed when in CH I often do use it.

well im off to switzerland in a couple of weeks so i'll find out.

If passengers knew that first class would get them:
a) a superior seat
b) more legroom
c) free wifi
d) a decent sized table
e) an area away from "the normal people" that was spotless...
f) a freebie, such as.. a paper or a tea or coffee

...it WOULD get used more and would be worth the money....

sadly i think this is unworkable on some London TOCs like southern, because of stock requirements and running everything on a shoe string.

Sometimes customer service should take precedence over profit.

 

[Taunton]

That's your opinion. But I've noticed it says you live in Scotrail area. I actually live in the Network South East area and I would almost die if they withdrew First Class!

Curiously, the first area of the country to lose first class on a widespread basis was London, where it was withdrawn on all services operated within London in 1940 due to wartime overcrowding. It was never reinstated afterwards, although integration of stock has later led to loss of clarity (which it seems continues with the new Thameslink stock).

The rest of the country did it spasmodically, PTEs generally tried to get rid of it, and when Provincial came along to the rest of the country they had a good go as well. Some has now actually been reinstated by TOCs in recent times, for no actual apparent reason.

From when the Mk2/Mk3 stock came to the WCML they started the overprovision of first class on that route, which built up to the initial Pendolinos which had 4 of the 9 cars first class. There is proper first class fare demand into London in the morning, and return in the evening, four days a week; such demand even drops on Fridays. For the rest of the day and the rest of the diagram, and all weekend, it is really just empty stock.

I well remember the ScotRail Glasgow-Edinburgh high speed push-pull shuttles of the 1970s, one coach of the six was first class, it hardly ever had anyone in it, where the other five were frequently standing. There was an exception. It formed a useful club for those ScotRail management who qualified for first class free passes, there were more of them than now, who used it as a form of private club when commuting between the two cities, as quite a number did. In InterCity days, services from London to Crewe/Derby/York were similar.

I'm sure if the actual revenue per coach was measured, especially as much long-distance first class patronage is advance fares, sold notably cheaper than the walk-up business travellers are paying even in standard, it just wouldn't wash at all. BR InterCity pretended to have a management measure of revenue per coach, but what they did was get to revenue per train and then divide it by the number of coaches, completely masking the first/standard split.

 

[Bishopstone]

I well remember the ScotRail Glasgow-Edinburgh high speed push-pull shuttles of the 1970s, one coach of the six was first class, it hardly ever had anyone in it, where the other five were frequently standing. There was an exception. It formed a useful club for those ScotRail management who qualified for first class free passes, there were more of them than now, who used it as a form of private club when commuting between the two cities, as quite a number did. In InterCity days, services from London to Crewe/Derby/York were similar.

The conversations I overhear in first class on Southern suggest a disproportionate percentage of patrons are in the 'railway family'. Not just GTR senior management on free passes, but sundry others travelling on Privs or discount schemes, current or legacy.

Indeed, the other day an OBS seemed to start with an assumption I was part of the family!

 

[otomous]

Trust me, there were no issues here - a simple case of yobbishness by a clearly very fit and athletic young man who was taking the p*** (to be blunt), along with two other passengers who just slunk back in as soon as the TTI had gone. Thanks to those who caution against confrontation, but I am well versed in handling these situations (however, of course, no-one is infallible!). Anyhoo - no doubt first class will disappear soon as the laxity of staffing/enforcement wins the day (and I will be taking early retirement anyway).

It's an interesting feature of first class that those who abuse it don't expect those using it genuinely to be so 'un-British' as to challenge them! The shock of that alone is usually enough to set them back, but reminders that they are on CCTV helps. As a last resort, simply manhandling troublemakers away does the trick! However, I take the point from those who caution against physical action - it's a last resort and far from risk-free. The last time I had to resort to this, I was congratulated by some fellow passengers and ignored by the (then) guard - such is the railway today. I'm not proud of it, but sometimes things have to be done.

The guard is between a rock and a hard place and now even more so. If he doesn't challenge the miscreant he has passengers and managers attacking him. If he does, and gets abused spat on or assaulted, there is a chance he will be told he was provocative and should have held back. Or the passenger may complain and say the guard assaulted him, and the guard's manager will probably take the passenger's side against the employee, without an apology when evidence shows the contrary. Or now he could be disciplined for allowing one passenger to manhandle the other, putting both potentially at harm. WE CANNOT WIN so we stay out of it.

 

[superalbs]

Does Chester station actually have a First Class lounge?

(CH is the postcode area centered around Chester).

CH is the abbreviation for Switzerland, much like UK, DE, ES, and FR.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure if the actual revenue per coach was measured, especially as much long-distance first class patronage is advance fares, sold notably cheaper than the walk-up business travellers are paying even in standard, it just wouldn't wash at all. BR InterCity pretended to have a management measure of revenue per coach, but what they did was get to revenue per train and then divide it by the number of coaches, completely masking the first/standard split.

Ah yes, but at the time those cheaper advance fares are available in first, how many people in standard are 'business passengers' paying full fare ? If lots of those are on standard advance, you might win out by flogging some of them a more expensive first class advance !

 

[Polarbear]

Surely such a season ticket purchased by an employer for an employee is a benefit in kind, and as such it will go on the P11d, and its user will pay income tax on it, … and income tax > corporation tax generally (certainly for the sorts of incomes that have first class rail travel as an option!), … so in fact it's no different (from a tax perspective) to the employee being paid that much more in real money. Travel to and from “your usual place of business” is not tax-deductible. In fact, then, those using a first class season ticket are “subsidising” the public purse, by paying substantially more tax (either as benefit in kind, or just on the normal income which is then used to buy the ticket) into both the exchequer and the rail industry, than those that pay for second class. Just a thought.

Correct on the taxation point. An employer can however provide an interest free loan of up to £10000 to allow employees to buy a season ticket. AS long as the repayable balance doesn't go over £10000, this is non-taxable.

 

[GodAtum]

Out of interest, how many genuine first class passengers were in there?

A few years ago when there where ticket checks, about 90% of people in my 1st class compartment had PFs.