Proposed CrossCountry December 2017 timetable change consultation

[swt_passenger]

With the withdrawal of most of the XC Paignton sevices, not hourly at present as Takno said and has already been corrected on this issue, I'm wondering if and how GWR can fill the gaps. When SWT ceased to run to Plymouth and Paignton some few years ago, DFT suddenly authorised LHCS to help out FGW and funded them because they realised they'd done nothing to plug the gaps.

There are supposed to be 2 tph Exmouth to Paignton operated by GWR according to the direct award brief. But only from Dec 2018.

Also shown on P16 of the consultation. So presumably on the original plans the DfT had accepted that most of 2018 would have a reduced service.

Interesting that in the consultation XC insist that most Paignton trains are lightly loaded beyond Exeter. They give figures per train.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[Mintona]

With the withdrawal of most of the XC Paignton sevices, not hourly at present as Takno said and has already been corrected on this issue, I'm wondering if and how GWR can fill the gaps. When SWT ceased to run to Plymouth and Paignton some few years ago, DFT suddenly authorised LHCS to help out FGW and funded them because they realised they'd done nothing to plug the gaps.

I'd like to see one of the two new London - Bristol TM via Bristol Parkway trains extended to Paignton each hour. Providing a regular hourly service from Torbay to Bristol and London, as well as a second hourly Bristol - Exeter train. I don't know whether enough IEP units have been ordered to make this feasible.

 

[221129]

Clearly you do not live in South Devon. The XC services are well used, yes more so in the Summer, but the winter will still see plenty of full services. As for frequent GWR services between Paignton and Exeter, if you like 143's so much, you welcome to ours

This is untrue. I am sorry but that is the exception. Not the norm.

 

[221129]

Regarding XCs proposed cuts to its Torbay services a DevonLive campaign to save direct train services linking the north and the Midlands to Devon's holiday resorts has succeeded in saving the trains - for now. httpww.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/weve-won-fight-save-train-462051

They haven't won. It has only been postponed.

 

[221129]

Does this mean that there won't be half hourly to Exeter then?

Not until we get rid of Paignton. So May 2018 at earliest.

 

[221129]

With the withdrawal of most of the XC Paignton sevices, not hourly at present as Takno said and has already been corrected on this issue, I'm wondering if and how GWR can fill the gaps. When SWT ceased to run to Plymouth and Paignton some few years ago, DFT suddenly authorised LHCS to help out FGW and funded them because they realised they'd done nothing to plug the gaps.

2018 Timetable change should see GWR Exeter - Paignton services increase I believe?

 

[D1009]

There are supposed to be 2 tph Exmouth to Paignton operated by GWR according to the direct award brief. But only from Dec 2018.

Also shown on P16 of the consultation. So presumably on the original plans the DfT had accepted that most of 2018 would have a reduced service.

Interesting that in the consultation XC insist that most Paignton trains are lightly loaded beyond Exeter. They give figures per train.

The trains are not lightly loaded between Exeter and Paignton, mainly because many people prefer a semi fast voyager to an all stations 143. The argument should be over how many through passengers there are.

 

[ainsworth74]

The trains are not lightly loaded between Exeter and Paignton, mainly because many people prefer a semi fast voyager to an all stations 143. The argument should be over how many through passengers there are.

The XC consultation notes that the busiest service only has an average of 88 passengers. Most have considerably less. I'm not sure that that qualifies as anything other than lightly loaded?

 

[43074]

That's why I think that XC should focus more resources on providing more seats between big cities (rather than plugging gaps in the local service to Paignton or Aberdeen or wherever).

I'm not against some through services to the fringes, but these should be run with marginal stock (e.g. in the way that Penzance gets early morning departures and late evening arrivals) rather than serving them through the day, whilst people are standing on corridors like Bristol to Birmingham that have no "local" TOC providing other services.

XC should be about providing direct services over long distances, so the Aberdeen, Penzance and Torbay extensions are completely relevant, the market to use those do not want to be getting up at 05:00 for a 06:30 train for the sakes of the operational convenience of the railway. You could argue ''local'' TOCs should provide flows like Manchester to Birmingham anyway and leave XC to solely cover a reduced number of long distance through services, linking as many places as possible and practical, according to demand etc, with direct trains.

XC just need more stock though, that would be a massive help and probably solve most of their problems.

 

[221129]

The trains are not lightly loaded between Exeter and Paignton, mainly because many people prefer a semi fast voyager to an all stations 143. The argument should be over how many through passengers there are.

Yes. They are.

 

[SprinterMan]

XC should be about providing direct services over long distances, so the Aberdeen, Penzance and Torbay extensions are completely relevant, the market to use those do not want to be getting up at 05:00 for a 06:30 train for the sakes of the operational convenience of the railway. You could argue ''local'' TOCs should provide flows like Manchester to Birmingham anyway and leave XC to solely cover a reduced number of long distance through services, linking as many places as possible and practical, according to demand etc, with direct trains.

XC just need more stock though, that would be a massive help and probably solve most of their problems.

Completely agree, it would be great if EMT replaced their entire IC fleet with 802s and then the 222s could go to XC, solving their stock problems.

Adam

 

[Kettledrum]

XC shouldn't be a commuter operation, and having it drag an extra 5 coaches from Penzance to Manchester (or whatever) to carry Stockport-Picc commuters (or whatever) is an utter waste of money. Get the commuters off with some "u" and "s" stops, and provide proper commuter services for commuters.

(XC-lite Class 170 services excepted, but really in my view those need moving to LM, ATW or EMT as applicable)

I am a regular XC traveller, and with the exception of the extremities of the XC network (Penzance, Aberdeen and Bournemouth), all the XC trains I have been on have been very well loaded (even severely overcrowded), and not dragging lots of empty coaches....regardless of the time of day. On a long journey commuters regularly pile on and off at Southampton, Reading, Oxford, Birmingham, Manchester etc.....and regularly have to stand in the aisles.

I can't see the stock or the paths being available for additional commuter trains, and reducing the frequency of the long distance journeys would be far too unpopular, so this won't free up XC stock.

My preference has always been for XC to acquire extra stock (either cascaded HSTs or Meridians) and run doubled up Voyagers in their core network, and single units to the extremities of the network. It would require units to run to time in order to join together which is a major challenge.

Until either EMT cascade their units or new bi-mode stock is ordered for XC, there is not the stock or there is no obvious solution.

The current timetable changes don't address the main problems, and the suggestions that the new franchise will be let on a low budget won't help address any of the severe over-crowding on the routes either.

 

[swt_passenger]

The XC consultation notes that the busiest service only has an average of 88 passengers. Most have considerably less. I'm not sure that that qualifies as anything other than lightly loaded?

Over the 6 services, the average load is 38 south of Exeter. I wonder what a realistic proportion of those are long distance passengers? Half, or even less than that...

 

[traintimemf]

hi, can anyone confirm if the daily hst from Newcastle at 5:38 will still be happening? - I will be starting a weekly commute from Newcastle to Normanton in a couple of weeks - I usually pick up the 5:25 and then the 6:20 from York in favour of the 5:33 for comfort but if the proposed train goes ahead it will deffo become my preferance...

 

[Class 170101]

There is no 05:38 from Newcastle.

 

[Starmill]

The trains are not lightly loaded between Exeter and Paignton, mainly because many people prefer a semi fast voyager to an all stations 143. The argument should be over how many through passengers there are.

As far as quality goes, the 143s will be gone before too long. Admittedly the remaining sprinters are presently pretty awful in most cases but I am sure that will improve. Presumably there will continue to be HST and then 802 worked services from Paignton too, at 0740, 1132 and 1413 ish? Perhaps there could be a couple more of these to fill the gaps left by XC for semi-fast services.

There is also the 2021 from Exeter St Davids and return from Paignton to Newton Abbot that are HST worked but of course not semi-fast.

 

[sprinterguy]

There is no 05:38 from Newcastle.

There is a 05:39 Newcastle - Plymouth proposed as part of the consultation timetable though, as an extension of the existing 06:40 York - Plymouth.

AFAIK there will now be no changes to timetabled services until the May 2018 timetable change at the earliest.

 

[traintimemf]

There is a 05:39 Newcastle - Plymouth proposed as part of the consultation timetable though, as an extension of the existing 06:40 York - Plymouth.

AFAIK there will now be no changes to timetabled services until the May 2018 timetable change at the earliest.

ahh that's a shame, would be so much easier than the current 2 options, thanks for the info though

 

[D1009]

With GWR intending to operate a radically different timetable in Jan 2019, I suspect the XC changes won't happen until then, as the additional XC services to/from Exeter will replace some of the Paddington services GWR intend to divert off the Bristol route.

 

[Starmill]

There are changes in December. 0735 Newcastle to Glasgow Central will start back from York at 0625. 1900 Glasgow Central to Newcastle will continue to York arriving 2235.

 

[43074]

With GWR intending to operate a radically different timetable in Jan 2019, I suspect the XC changes won't happen until then, as the additional XC services to/from Exeter will replace some of the Paddington services GWR intend to divert off the Bristol route.

GWR are probably planning around XC, so it's probably more a question of how well the additional services fit around the current GWR service that would prevent it being introduced at an earlier date. I suspect it works in both current and future timetables as it was initially proposed to implement the XC changes in December 2017, whereas most of the major GWR changes were always planned for December 2018.

 

[Envoy]

Any idea when the ‘mini’ HST’s (4 coaches) will be operating between Cardiff & the south-west and will they be any faster than the present Sprinters? (I have put this in this forum because most of this route is also XC and better GWR trains might skim off some passengers from XC).

 

[Ash Bridge]

Any idea when the ‘mini’ HST’s (4 coaches) will be operating between Cardiff & the south-west and will they be any faster than the present Sprinters? (I have put this in this forum because most of this route is also XC and better GWR trains might skim off some passengers from XC).

Perhaps even better if 2+4 HST became 2+5?

 

[D1009]

Any idea when the ‘mini’ HST’s (4 coaches) will be operating between Cardiff & the south-west and will they be any faster than the present Sprinters? (I have put this in this forum because most of this route is also XC and better GWR trains might skim off some passengers from XC).

AIUI there has been no suggestion that there will be any acceleration of the Cardiff to South West services with the change of rolling stock, and they will still serve intermediate stations between Bristol and Taunton, making them far less attractive for through passengers than the XC trains. They may be an option for the few who value comfort over speed.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks for the info D1009. It could well be that if the connections at Bristol between south Wales trains and XC trains to/from the south-west are not good, that passengers between south Wales & the south-west might well prefer to stay on the GWR services. Lower pricing for the GWR HST stoppers might also induce passengers to/from Bristol & points south-west to use the GWR trains as opposed to Cross Country trains.

 

[Starmill]

AIUI there has been no suggestion that there will be any acceleration of the Cardiff to South West services with the change of rolling stock, and they will still serve intermediate stations between Bristol and Taunton, making them far less attractive for through passengers than the XC trains. They may be an option for the few who value comfort over speed.

I have always thought it quite something that it generally takes 33 minutes on a non-stop Taunton to Bristol train but usually 65 minutes on a stopping train. It must be so frustrating for people from Bridgwater that it takes 20 minutes longer for them to get to Bristol than it does from Taunton despite them being closer. Bridgwater is not much smaller than Taunton, but it has not a single 'fast' train to Bristol.

 

[221129]

I have always thought it quite something that it generally takes 33 minutes on a non-stop Taunton to Bristol train but usually 65 minutes on a stopping train. It must be so frustrating for people from Bridgwater that it takes 20 minutes longer for them to get to Bristol than it does from Taunton despite them being closer. Bridgwater is not much smaller than Taunton, but it has not a single 'fast' train to Bristol.

Have you met a lot of the clientele from Bridgwater?

 

[Confused147]

Why not keep the Paignton services as they are and still have the half hourly Birmingham to Exeter, whats stopping them?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Lack of stock I would guess.