Jobsworths & Enthusiasts

[Ferret]

Try reading it in the context it was with written with the post it was quoting Mr Forum Police. :roll:

With all due respect, try answering the question!!!

 

[ukrob]

With all due respect, try answering the question!!!

Maybe you could explain, to quote your own words, "in a thread about jobsworth staff, precisely what point were you trying to make" with this post?

If you have a problem with a post, use the alert button instead of doing what you criticise others of doing. Maybe you should check post #29 in the thread (one of yours) as that has nothing to do with jobsworth staff either.

 

[Ferret]

Piffle.:roll:

Returning to the subject line - it always strikes me as odd that somehow a photograph of a train at a station is seen as being helpful in some way to a terrorist. I mean FFS, are these jobsworths actually suggesting that a terrorist needs photographic proof to confirm that a train does indeed run on parallel bits of metal through a railway station? Knock me down with a feather - in other shocking news the Pope is Catholic!!! :roll:

 

[anthony263]

I kind of wish i didnt post this thread now, with some of you starting a little bickering with each other.

My opinion is that i am happy to have a member of staff ask me what i am doing, thats fair enough but not to have a go at me especially if am a paying customer etc and its about time staff realised that having some enthusiasts about could be very handy as they are likely to become an extra pair of eyes & ear's etc and can quickly alert staff if there are any problems.

I know at some airports the plane spotters have their own dedicated viewing gallery where they can photogrpah and take notes on aircraft in peice and they dont seem to be getting harrased as much as us and they are in an area that is more likely to be targeted by terrorists.

I dont really get the difference and a lot of staff and the BTP have admitted having enthusisasts about is a good idea.

Really i think some of the TOC'S need to tell their staff to get their act together and some of the staff need to loose their jobs or get a good telling off if they continue harassing enthusiasts.

I know a few members of staff who work at Cardiff Central, Bristol Temple Meads either as train dispatchers or drivers/gaurds and they have said they dont mind having enthusiasts taking pictures as long as they are behaving themselves and putting themselves or anyone else in danger etc.

 

[Mintona]

Total bollards. A terrorist does not need to take a photo to plan out a terrorist attack. That kind of comment is typical of the counter-productive paranoia that is far too evident these days

I agree. But from a staff point of view, seeing someone loitering down the ends of the platforms does make you wonder. I'm not saying you shouldn't be there but the first thing that passes through my mind is "god, is he going to jump?" and when he doesn't, it's usually "well is he planning on leaving something somewhere?" The station was bombed a few years ago now, and I don't want to risk it happening again. So I will ask what you're up to, but never stop you taking photographs.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Just to put the whole terror issue into perspective, I would like to point out that in April 1997, an IRA bomb was planted next to the tracks just outside Leeds station. Though the bomb did not go off, it caused absolute pandemonium in Leeds.

It may just be me, but to be able to locate a bomb in such a significant area, there has to be a certain amount of pre planning - whether that be through photography or other means. For a long time afterwards, staff at Leeds station were very jumpy and there was a large police presence. I remember it well.

You may very well be innocent people trying to carry out an innocent hobby. And yes, a large degree of common sense is lacking in some cases. And further, the threat of terrorism largely comes now from that of radical islamists - very few islamic rail enthusiasts - BUT if has happened before, it damn well could happen again.

I absolutely agree that there are some jobsworths out there who are intent on ruining everyones' day. But what about those who trespass to get a photo and cause a danger to everyone which delays trains? What about those who get argumentative and, dare I say, clever when questioned about what they are doing? As far as I can tell, just as many of those people exist as jobsworths. I have seen a lot of railway enthusiasts who are obnoxious, believe only they exist and are 100% disrespectful to the majority of people who are just trying to get to where they want to go or do their job. They actively look down upon people who use the railway for convenience. Just looking through this forum shows the contempt that a lot of 'enthusiasts' have for 'ordinary' people.

But hey, they have every right to be there so shouldn't be questioned, right?

Get a grip.

 

[Mojo]

Conversely, following the London bombings, the police publicly appealed for members of the public to send in any photographs they could get, which could be holiday snaps, cameraphone pictures or pictures by railway enthusiasts.

I simply can't believe that a terrorist would go about making a big deal about getting detailed photography and make it blatant in the process. Trespassing to get photographs is a different issue from enthusiasts who stand on platform ends (which, for the record I have not done in about three and a half years; not because of 'interference,' but because I'm simply not interested in doing that anymore).

 

[whoshotjimmi]

My main point is that enthusiasts probably get as much grief because of the actions of the mindless and ignorant few who do flout the law as they do due to 'terror'.

 

[jon0844]

The best way to succeed is no planning at all. I bet I could plant a bomb on my train tomorrow, in a bin on any carriage, and walk away - boom. Nobody would have a clue.

Why would I have drawn any attention to myself beforehand for people to see when reviewing CCTV?

I'd be totally unknown, boarding with loads of other commuters. As long as it's a train without CCTV onboard, I'd be off with everyone and just one of hundreds of possible suspects.

And if I was going to do a station, I'd be wandering around looking lost while finding a place to plant a bomb. Not taking photos that are hardly that useful later on!

If I wanted to know where all the cameras were, I'd hardly benefit by taking LOADS of photos ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'd be wanting to jot down their locations on a map/plan of the station. How would I be able to piece together all the photos after? And how would I know I didn't miss something later on?

Seriously, taking photos isn't anything to do with terrorism. These people are going undetected, while staff go after someone that is obviously taking photos of trains because of where they are - and the fact they're not wandering around trying to gain access to areas that are off limits.

 

[Aussie_Rail]

How do tourists find this extremist type behavior? Do they get interrogated like that too?

 

[Oswyntail]

Just to put the whole terror issue into perspective, I would like to point out that in April 1997, an IRA bomb was planted next to the tracks just outside Leeds station. Though the bomb did not go off, it caused absolute pandemonium in Leeds.

Actually, it did go off, and I was on the train next to it when it did. Little more than a large firecracker, designed to create pandemonium rather than damage. Kob done

very few islamic rail enthusiasts

This statement I find disturbing - any facts to back it up? And is it relevant?

I absolutely agree that there are some jobsworths out there who are intent on ruining everyones' day

Yes, and unfortunately, because they go unchallenged by colleagues (whatever line they are in) those jobsworths end up dominating "received opinion". The way to deal with these people is to challenge them ....

But what about those who trespass to get a photo and cause a danger to everyone which delays trains? What about those who get argumentative and, dare I say, clever when questioned about what they are doing? As far as I can tell, just as many of those people exist as jobsworths.

...but, yes, do it sensibly. Treat everyone as you would like to be treated yourself and the world would be a better place.

...Get a grip.

Yes, we should all do that. The best answer to terrorism is to carry on as normal, showing that our way of life and values are strong and resilient. Attempting to control everything is incompatible with that, and using the "terrorism" bogeyman to justify our current headlong rush towards a 1984 culture is, IMHO, just as much an act or terrorism as blowing things up. As the name implies, terrorism gets results by spreading terror. Even petty local staff who use terrorism to justify their need to prove their machismo are, in their pathetic way, increasing teh sense of terror, and carrying on the bombers' work for them
[/end heartfelt rant]

 

[EM2]

The best way to succeed is no planning at all. I bet I could plant a bomb on my train tomorrow, in a bin on any carriage, and walk away - boom. Nobody would have a clue.

Why would I have drawn any attention to myself beforehand for people to see when reviewing CCTV?

I'd be totally unknown, boarding with loads of other commuters. As long as it's a train without CCTV onboard, I'd be off with everyone and just one of hundreds of possible suspects.

*A* bomb could be left in a bin on a train, sure. A bomb large enough to cause substantial damage to a train and to inflict a large number of casualties (Such as those that al-Qaeda used in Madrid) could not.

And if I was going to do a station, I'd be wandering around looking lost while finding a place to plant a bomb. Not taking photos that are hardly that useful later on!

If you're wandering around looking lost, then you won't be peering in nooks and crannies or in areas 'off the beaten track'. And it's *that* kind of behaviour that station staff would look out for.

If I wanted to know where all the cameras were, I'd hardly benefit by taking LOADS of photos ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'd be wanting to jot down their locations on a map/plan of the station. How would I be able to piece together all the photos after? And how would I know I didn't miss something later on?

Seriously, taking photos isn't anything to do with terrorism. These people are going undetected, while staff go after someone that is obviously taking photos of trains because of where they are - and the fact they're not wandering around trying to gain access to areas that are off limits.

Yes, you would benefit. Because while you're taking pictures of sensitive equipment, you'd also take a good few pictures of trains and interesting architectural details, because after all, you're just an innocent enthusiast who's taking a few snaps of trains, and who's going to worry about that?

 

[Ferret]

Yes, you would benefit. Because while you're taking pictures of sensitive equipment, you'd also take a good few pictures of trains and interesting architectural details, because after all, you're just an innocent enthusiast who's taking a few snaps of trains, and who's going to worry about that?

Sensitive equipment? Oh please. :roll:

When are we gonna move on from this needless and counter-productive culture of suspicion where photography is concerned?

 

[GB]

With all due respect, try answering the question!!!

His point was (correct me if Im wrong ukrob) that its common decency to let staff know you are there...and lets not forget, this is also part of the NR guidelines.

You can't bleat on about staff not adhearing to the guidelines if enthusiasts can't be bothered to follow it themselves.

And no, Im not defending the attitude some staff have towards enthusiasts...some clearly need lessons on customer relations, but that is also a two way street.

Edit, its not always obvious what people are up to. I was at a station the other day, some bloke turned up with what appeared to be a video camera bag. In the two hours I was there he did not get out any kind of camera, notebook or anything, but was just wondering around.

 

[EM2]

Sensitive equipment? Oh please. :roll:

When are we gonna move on from this needless and counter-productive culture of suspicion where photography is concerned?

While the threat level is as it is, we won't.
And what's the issue with the phrase 'sensitive equipment' ? Rather than listing a catalogue of things that would cause *major* disruption if they were damaged, it's a fairly good cover-all description.

 

[Ferret]

While the threat level is as it is, we won't.

Might as well ban Canon and Nikon from selling cameras - you can chalk up another victory for the terrorists then as they'll have put thousands more people out of work.

And what's the issue with the phrase 'sensitive equipment' ? Rather than listing a catalogue of things that would cause *major* disruption if they were damaged, it's a fairly good cover-all description.

They aren't trying to cause disruption by blowing up equipment - they're trying to blow *people* up. Blowing up the odd fuse box here and there doesn't cause the worldwide headlines........

 

[EM2]

Might as well ban Canon and Nikon from selling cameras - you can chalk up another victory for the terrorists then as they'll have put thousands more people out of work.

Oh, don't talk cobblers. Let's extend your own analogy shall we? Stop people catching trains or entering stations completely? Or ban the sale of rucksacks? Or mobile phones?

They aren't trying to cause disruption by blowing up equipment - they're trying to blow *people* up. Blowing up the odd fuse box here and there doesn't cause the worldwide headlines........

al-Qaeda might not, but the IRA would take great delight in just disrupting daily life and causing inconvenience for people.
And if al-Qaeda or similar want to blow up people, why wouldn't they plant a bomb behind a location cabinet and detonate it remotely as a train passes, or in a fire extinguisher cabinet on a packed platform?

Just out of interest Ferret, do you work on the railway?

 

[Ferret]

Oh, don't talk cobblers. Let's extend your own analogy shall we? Stop people catching trains or entering stations completely? Or ban the sale of rucksacks? Or mobile phones?

Why not - the prevailing logic from the likes of Transec suggests that because terrorists may have (but probably didn't) take(n) photos prior to the 7/7 attacks etc etc then photography at stations should be challenged/banned. Well, on the grounds that the Madrid train bombings were carried out with the aid of mobile phones and rucksacks then anybody carrying either must be treated as suspicious surely? You've done a wonderful job at highlighting why all this gibber surrounding photography is so ludicrous. Why on earth do terrorists need to do any form of reconaissance now anyway - they've already proved it can be done on 7/7!!!!!

al-Qaeda might not, but the IRA would take great delight in just disrupting daily life and causing inconvenience for people.
And if al-Qaeda or similar want to blow up people, why wouldn't they plant a bomb behind a location cabinet and detonate it remotely as a train passes, or in a fire extinguisher cabinet on a packed platform?

And they need to take photographs first to do that do they?

Just out of interest Ferret, do you work on the railway?

As it happens, I do. Not quite sure I see the relevance but there you go...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

His point was (correct me if Im wrong ukrob) that its common decency to let staff know you are there...and lets not forget, this is also part of the NR guidelines.

If you read those guidelines, the making yourself known part is a request, not a requirement. To me this adequately covers those who wish to take a quick snap of the train they have just alighted from, or take a quick snap of a passing train during a short connection. As for it being common courtesy to say hi - well, I don't necessarily disagree but rail enthusiasts have congregated on stations for many years without having done so in the past! To me, the issue of whether enthusiasts need to show courtesy in this specific way (ie going and letting staff know what they are doing) is a red herring and peripheral to the main issue.

And no, Im not defending the attitude some staff have towards enthusiasts...some clearly need lessons on customer relations, but that is also a two way street.

Agreed.

 

[EM2]

OK, we both work on the railway. So surely, we both want to keep the railway as safe as possible for passengers and staff?
And so, if we see anyone acting in a manner which is unusual or suspicious, we would challenge them?

I personally feel that if I inconvenience an enthusiast by asking him or her what they are up to, then that's a small price to pay for a transport system which is as safe as we can make it. And I will make no apologies for continuing to do it. I will never tell an enthusiast that they can't take some photos, unless what they are doing is stupid or dangerous. But if someone is taking pictures of something unusual or taking a keen interest in location boxes, or train despatch equipment, then I will challenge them.

To get back on topic, the staff member at Richmond went *way* beyond their remit, and was flat-out wrong to have treated the OP as they did.

 

[Mojo]

Someone above put it very well, the terrorists want to change our way of life and by imposing restrictions on things we've done for years.

 

[Ferret]

OK, we both work on the railway. So surely, we both want to keep the railway as safe as possible for passengers and staff?
And so, if we see anyone acting in a manner which is unusual or suspicious, we would challenge them?

I personally feel that if I inconvenience an enthusiast by asking him or her what they are up to, then that's a small price to pay for a transport system which is as safe as we can make it. And I will make no apologies for continuing to do it. I will never tell an enthusiast that they can't take some photos, unless what they are doing is stupid or dangerous. But if someone is taking pictures of something unusual or taking a keen interest in location boxes, or train despatch equipment, then I will challenge them.

To get back on topic, the staff member at Richmond went *way* beyond their remit, and was flat-out wrong to have treated the OP as they did.

Now that I agree with. It's not inconveniencing any enthusiast to ask what he's doing and it doesn't have to be done in a confrontational way either - if you're dealing with enthusiasts then there's no need for any suspicion at all, and no need for any issue. What is plain wrong is saying that photography is banned and stopping an enthusiast from carrying out a legitimate and harmless pursuit. Why oh why the staff at Richmond (for example) can't fathom that building a rapport with enthusiasts is far more productive than annoying them I do not know!

 

[Buffer68]

I was at Eastleigh yesterday and got some good shots of Tornado as she came through and some other pics too. I made myself known at the desk and was told yes fine, no problem. I was there for about three hours and nobody challenged me - really nice. I also have popped into Hamworthy a couple of times and now am friendly with the signalman there; he even lets me know when stuff is likely to be coming through.
It doesn't take more than a few minutes to just ask at the desk if you can take photos - it keeps everyone happy then.

 

[anthony263]

I am more than happy for a member of staff to politly ask me what i am doing, especially speaking from a passenger side of things i would like to travel safely on the railway.

However what i dont like is some members of staff deciding that they have nothing better to do tha harass enthusiasts, in my opinion the managers need to start coming down harder on these jobsworths, i am sure they will change their ways if they know their jobs are on the line if they keep it up.


One thing i would like to say is that i am glad to see that the British transport police are happy to have railway enthusiasts on the stations, i noticed a few at earls court station and they didnt seem to be bothered about myself taing a few photos of trains, i even got a lot of waves from drivers which was nice.

I did read in the latest copy of rail magazine that there may be some changes with the guidlines for railway enthusiasts so that might be worth keeping an eye on.


Another problem i have found is that some other passengers seem to love harasing or having a go at railway enthusiasts. I do remember that there was problems on the rhymeny valley a few years ago at bargoed/Ystrad mynach where a few locals where complaing about the railway enthusiasts taking photos of the trains.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, you would benefit. Because while you're taking pictures of sensitive equipment, you'd also take a good few pictures of trains and interesting architectural details, because after all, you're just an innocent enthusiast who's taking a few snaps of trains, and who's going to worry about that?

If I was taking a photo of a train, I'd be standing on the platform and barely moving. If I was moving all over the place, taking photos of everything else then I'd expect someone to question it.

But, we seem to be working to what has happened before.. then we had 9/11 and 7/7. The Madrid bombing was quite exceptional, because it seems the 'modern' terrorist has realised the key to success is the suicide bomb or the 'just going for it' as in driving a car into a building.

The IRA did things differently, using the small bomb idea to cause minimal damage (not always, but usually) but the maximum chaos.

Who knows what will happen next? We all want the stations to be safe, but I remember when the police searched rucksacks and I always figured that if I was a suicide bomber and was suddenly 'caught', I'd detonate rather than go quietly.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

This statement I find disturbing - any facts to back it up? And is it relevant?

Yes - go to any spot where there are enthusiasts throughout the country. And yes, it is relevant. I was making the point about where the terrorist threat currently comes from and the folly of suspecting photographers because there are not many radical Islamists who are rail enthusiasts. If any of these 'terrorists' were trying to pass themselves off as an enthusiast, they would stand out by miles. Perfectly logical point as far as I am concerned. Why are you disturbed by a mere observation?

Yes, and unfortunately, because they go unchallenged by colleagues (whatever line they are in) those jobsworths end up dominating "received opinion". The way to deal with these people is to challenge them .......but, yes, do it sensibly. Treat everyone as you would like to be treated yourself and the world would be a better place.

Sigh. This is exactly what I would urge people to avoid. If people are initially not happy with your presence, you will hardly endear yourself to them by challenging them. Remain polite and win their favour. Don't challenge people who are looking for a challenge. You will not win.

Yes, we should all do that. The best answer to terrorism is to carry on as normal, showing that our way of life and values are strong and resilient. Attempting to control everything is incompatible with that, and using the "terrorism" bogeyman to justify our current headlong rush towards a 1984 culture is, IMHO, just as much an act or terrorism as blowing things up. As the name implies, terrorism gets results by spreading terror. Even petty local staff who use terrorism to justify their need to prove their machismo are, in their pathetic way, increasing teh sense of terror, and carrying on the bombers' work for them

Again, sigh. When I was growing up, all I ever heard about was the IRA and their consistent bombing campaign of the UK. Back then, people appeared to accept it as part of life. Since the Ealing bomb in the early 2000's, the actual number of attacks has been negligable. But the focus has changed and the sporadic and unknown nature of them has people worried. Whatever you may think about 'terror' and people living freely, there are worried souls out there. The simple fact is this. If someone is not entirely happy with you, you will be questioned. If you get argumentative, aggressive, snooty, clever and arrogant about things just because it is 'your right' to be there, your actions become more questionable.

If some kids play football in the street, some people find it a nuisance and ask them to bugger off, even though they are not technically doing anything wrong (except possibly obstructing the highway - before anyone says it).

Forget about the jobsworth nature of some people and retain composure. If someone REALLY wants you to move on - move on. Do not let it become an issue. Eventually, the hysteria will die down and staff will be a lot happier to have you around.

 

[90019]

If any of these 'terrorists' were trying to pass themselves off as an enthusiast, they would stand out by miles. Perfectly logical point as far as I am concerned. Why are you disturbed by a mere observation?

Why do you think this is the case? And can you prove that they all would?

 

[Oswyntail]

Yes - go to any spot where there are enthusiasts throughout the country. .... If any of these 'terrorists' were trying to pass themselves off as an enthusiast, they would stand out by miles. Perfectly logical point as far as I am concerned. Why are you disturbed by a mere observation?

Because I do not know how to tell a Muslim, let alone a terrorist, simply by looking at them (the same is true of rail enthusiasts). Now the implication is that you think you can - and THAT is disturbing.

Sigh. This is exactly what I would urge people to avoid. If people are initially not happy with your presence, you will hardly endear yourself to them by challenging them. Remain polite and win their favour. Don't challenge people who are looking for a challenge. You will not win.

Actually, responding calmly and in an adult fashion, even if it is to stand up to them, often defuses the situation. Meekly moving on tends to make things worse. These people are simple bullies.

Again, sigh. When I was growing up, all I ever heard about was the IRA and their consistent bombing campaign of the UK. Back then, people appeared to accept it as part of life. Since the Ealing bomb in the early 2000's, the actual number of attacks has been negligable. But the focus has changed and the sporadic and unknown nature of them has people worried. Whatever you may think about 'terror' and people living freely, there are worried souls out there.

And, IMHO, a large part of the worry is directly caused by people exaggerating the threat. Yes, the nature of the threat is different from the IRA (which I too lived through) and is less predictable. But that is no reason to clamp down on freedom. Again, terrorists are bullies, and, IMHO, will only get worse if we make everyone frightened.

The simple fact is this. If someone is not entirely happy with you, you will be questioned. If you get argumentative, aggressive, snooty, clever and arrogant about things just because it is 'your right' to be there, your actions become more questionable.

Exactly. Cut out the aggression (active or passive) and simply stay rational and adult.

Forget about the jobsworth nature of some people and retain composure. If someone REALLY wants you to move on - move on. Do not let it become an issue. Eventually, the hysteria will die down and staff will be a lot happier to have you around.

And this policy is working so very well, as on the streets of London recently.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Why do you think this is the case? And can you prove that they all would?

It is not about proving it! It is about the glaring obviousness of the situation!

I would stand out just as much if I tried to pass myself off as an extremist. Look at my picture for crying out loud - my hair is pink!

My point is, IF someone was up to no good, the majority of people would be able to suss them out immediately, especially considering peoples' heightened state of panic.

I find it unbeliveable that a simple point about the general demographic of the rail enthusiast is being broken down in such minute detail! It is exactly the needless and infuriating argument that makes some staff so unhappy to see enthusiasts around the station! If a jobsworth had that same level of pedantry levelled at them, it is no surprise they are so damned miserable!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because I do not know how to tell a Muslim, let alone a terrorist, simply by looking at them (the same is true of rail enthusiasts). Now the implication is that you think you can - and THAT is disturbing.

You obviously don't understand my point. So let me put it another way.

You say you can't tell who the rail enthusiasts are by looking at them. I would counter that by saying they are one of the easiest groups to spot in the world. At stations, they hunt in packs with cameras in certain clothes in certain places and say very obvious and different things to everyone else. If a terrorist was 'casing the joint' but trying to pass themself off as an enthusiast, they would stand out just as much BECAUSE they wouldn't look like a normal rail enthusiast nor do the same things.

I am on your side - i don't think the modern terrorist would bother too much with photos BUT even the 7/7 bombers did a dummy run two weeks before te event. It is not incomprehensible that it could happen.

 

[EM2]

You say you can't tell who the rail enthusiasts are by looking at them. I would counter that by saying they are one of the easiest groups to spot in the world. At stations, they hunt in packs with cameras in certain clothes in certain places and say very obvious and different things to everyone else. If a terrorist was 'casing the joint' but trying to pass themself off as an enthusiast, they would stand out just as much BECAUSE they wouldn't look like a normal rail enthusiast nor do the same things.

But the average station staff member wouldn't know what an enthusiast was talking about either!
If 95% of my colleagues were approached by someone saying 'Excuse me but has the yellow Goyle been in? I got some gen from a basher that it was due and I'd really love to cab it. I bet it blows some great clag when it goes!', they'd look at them like they had two heads.
The first time most of them know that someone is an enthusiast, is when they get asked 'Is it OK if I go onto the platfrom and take a few shots?'

As for recognising terrorists, let's look at shoe-bomber Richard Reid (born in Bromley) and Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh shall we? And there are such things as Muslim enthusiasts, 'cos I've met them

 

[whoshotjimmi]

But the average station staff member wouldn't know what an enthusiast was talking about either!
If 95% of my colleagues were approached by someone saying 'Excuse me but has the yellow Goyle been in? I got some gen from a basher that it was due and I'd really love to cab it. I bet it blows some great clag when it goes!', they'd look at them like they had two heads.
The first time most of them know that someone is an enthusiast, is when they get asked 'Is it OK if I go onto the platfrom and take a few shots?'

As for recognising terrorists, let's look at shoe-bomber Richard Reid (born in Bromley) and Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh shall we? And there are such things as Muslim enthusiasts, 'cos I've met them

Exactly - they stand out. Whether you understand them or not, you know who they are!

As for the two particular terrorists you mention; Richard Reid was just a nutter with no real cause. There have been lots of them throughout history and it is very difficult to identify them, i agree. Timothy McVeigh slipped the net, in many ways. All the warning signs were there but he somehow got through.

Just for the record, I did not say there weren't any Muslim enthusiasts. I'm also a bit concerned that you appear to be confusing muslims with islamic extremists - which is where the main threat of terror currently comes from. As has been the entire point of my contribution to this rapidly nauseating thread. If you read my original post, I stated that there were very few ISLAMIC rail enthusiasts ie extremists who happen to like trains. (at least for the love of the hobby)

I have worked in security. I am able to pick up on people who are acting suspiciously and do not belong somewhere very easily from the smallest clue. I do not believe a terrorist would blend in very easily in that situation. As a passenger, yes. As an enthusiast, no. I do not believe that someone would need to have security experience to spot that danger. If you were trying to spot a suspicious passenger among hundreds of others, then you would be nowhere without the training and experience. To spot a bogus enthusiast among a few others would not be hard - to anyone.

Obviously, some people take it a bit too far. But is it not better to satisfy one's own curiosity? IF a member of staff had seen something and not reported or questioned it and IF something then happened, that member of staff would have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they could have done something, but didn't.

I don't think being questioned as to my intentions means that my liberties and freedoms are being challenged. It is sad that we live in a world where there is the threat of terror and there is fear, but it DOES exist. And as long as it does exist, there will be people who are vigilant and there will be people who are jumpy. So, accept that, now and then, someone will not be happy you are there and get over it.