Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[lejog]

The TPE takeover of stopping services is not due until December, the May timetable change diverts Scarborough services via Chat Moss, uses the Ordsall Chord and extends York services to Newcastle. It only requires two extra units i.e. the Mark III sets. Half the posts on the forum are speculation!.

Yes those that state facts without any source often post complete wibble.

Here is a link to the planned timetable for 1K67 0917 Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds (TP) on 21st May, a TPE service calling at Stalybridge, Greenfield, Marsden, Huddersfield, Deighton, Mirfield, Ravensthorpe, Dewsbury, Batley and Morley.

And to 1K11 0847 Manchester Piccadilly - Hull (TP) calling at Stalybridge, Mossley, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield, Dewsbury and Batley.

I suggest you also read the first page of the May 2018 Timetable Changes thread on the Allocations forum where several posters, including moderator IanXC, discuss the new TPE stopping services. All of these posters indulging in speculation ???

Pity poor Batley, reduced to 1 Northern service per day from May, from Leeds at 5.30 in the morning.

 

[coxxy]

As we know the virgin east coast franchise have effectively handed back the keys/bailed out of the franchise early due to infrastructure upgrades not being completed/not being completed on time.. I wonder if this happening again could give Arriva the opportunity to do the same.. pure speculation obviously but if Northern isn't making the money they wanted to then I wonder what's next.. surely Northern aren't just going to accept it..

 

[DJH1971]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...ugh_Bolton_delayed_by_a_further_SEVEN_months/

Not exactly a surprise then.

Looks like my feeling as I have said before it may result in Manchester to Preston services using Chat Moss as an interim measure.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Massively disappointing again.

A further nail to the coffin of electrification in this country. Surprised we've got room for anymore nails and most certainly a welcome sigh of relief to those involved in converting the 769s.

 

[59CosG95]

I wouldn't necessarily say that delaying it to the December timetable's a bad thing, given the circumstances. Ground conditions are notoriously difficult to understand - and I'm saying this as a student in Civil Engineering, where Soil Mechanics & Geotechnical engineering are covered in great detail. It'd be even more of a PR disaster for NR if they rushed through the work, and then part of the line collapsed into an undiscovered mine working. We don't particularly want a UK equivalent of the Rastatt incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastatt_Tunnel#August_2017_collapse).

 

[YorkshireBear]

I wouldn't necessarily say that delaying it to the December timetable's a bad thing, given the circumstances. Ground conditions are notoriously difficult to understand - and I'm saying this as a student in Civil Engineering, where Soil Mechanics & Geotechnical engineering are covered in great detail. It'd be even more of a PR disaster for NR if they rushed through the work, and then part of the line collapsed into an undiscovered mine working. We don't particularly want a UK equivalent of the Rastatt incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastatt_Tunnel#August_2017_collapse).

The bad thing is that nobody thought to check the ground conditions in detail over the last 7 years. Even though people have dug archive information about running sands etc that would have been useful.

 

[59CosG95]

The bad thing is that nobody thought to check the ground conditions in detail over the last 7 years. Even though people have dug archive information about running sands etc that would have been useful.

I wholeheartedly agree on that front, the lack of surveying is mind-boggling and incredibly frustrating. There is however only so much you can do with 7-year-old survey sheets, particularly in built-up areas which may or may not have released chemicals into the soil in that time.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I wholeheartedly agree on that front, the lack of surveying is mind-boggling and incredibly frustrating. There is however only so much you can do with 7-year-old survey sheets, particularly in built-up areas which may or may not have released chemicals into the soil in that time.

Yes, but the chemicals would not have created running sands. The unexpected ground conditions would have largely been found with a decent ground investigations.

 

[59CosG95]

Yes, but the chemicals would not have created running sands. The unexpected ground conditions would have largely been found with a decent ground investigations.

Indeed. To my chagrin, I'd missed out on the running sands part of the article. Why the powers that be didn't undertake a decent ground investigation, I don't know.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Indeed. To my chagrin, I'd missed out on the running sands part of the article. Why the powers that be didn't undertake a decent ground investigation, I don't know.

Well according the Permanent Way Institution - see starting at 10 minutes for a good few minutes- THEY DID !!!! It is in the pinned Electrification Resources Thread too - which is why I am surprised.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well according the Permanent Way Institution - see starting at 10 minutes for a good few minutes- THEY DID !!!! It is in the pinned Electrification Resources Thread too - which is why I am surprised.

I think this came after the issues....

 

[yoyothehobo]

Ground investigations are notoriously difficult to undertake on existing railway lines. You can very rarely do them outside the railway boundary due to access/landowner issues so you are restricted to doing them within the boundary of the railway lines.

This is particularly tricky, as there is incredibly little plant in the country that is adapted for use on the railway. You have to be very wary of doing anything that can affect the track itself and most ground investigation boreholes would take much longer to do that in a single night time possession, including mobilization of all the equipment and set up. Smaller plant are easier to get in, but do not necessarily have the ability to get down to a decent depth and certainly not through rock. A cable percussion rig (shell and auger) will get down quicker but you have no hope of setting one up without a very large cess. Rotary, your only hope at getting through rock layers to check for coal workings are nearly all rubber tracked and you would have very little chance of setting one up on a railway line without a large cess and good access. A good GI would make everything easier, however a lot of the time it just isn't possbile. (Plus a lot of people in the industry have no clue about GI)

My experience is of several years as a geotechnical driller and a site investigation consultant.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think this came after the issues....

Yes, but the point is they have known about the issues for a while. The Golden Rule I live by (see also Godfather 1 - Tom Hagen to the guy whose horses head is cut off and left in bed) "My boss is a man who wants to hear bad news early - good news can wait."

Long story short -don't hold onto bad news - be up front and transparent and tell people well in advance and not hold on until everyone (not just the enthusiast community) knows it is going to be late. OT Churchills greatest strength IMHO - tell em straight "I have nothing to offer but blood toil sweat and tears" - it is better in the long run. Other wise it turns into Pink Floyd "Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way --- no one told you when to run , you missed the starting gun"

 

[Chester1]

From another thread:

Yes that is correct but I have been informed today that the majority of changes at TPE won't be affected and will still happen. The major issues are the timings of the Man Air to Scotland trains as they might now have to run via Wigan non stop instead of Bolton non stop/pickup/set down only.

The movement of all Liverpool TPE trains to Chat Moss should still happen. Can't see why it won't.

I think BMIFlyer works for TPE.

Id guess the cascaded units will be used to run an altered Northern timetable that allows TPE to go ahead with its changes. Northern had insufficient stock to do this last month.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think this is the fourth delay to the originally posted completion date (Dec 2016), which was still being forecast in Mar 2015.
If the new date is December, completion will have slipped 2 years in less than 3 elapsed years.
Today is the first time I can recall when a slip has actually been announced, as opposed to NR just posting a new date in the milestones.
The December milestones, less than a month old, say "not later than May 2018".
Doubtless, delay will put the cost up.

The good news, of course, is that there's no mention of Preston-Blackpool delays.

When this happened to EGIP the SG went apoplectic, and there were awkward moments for NR at Holyrood.
Let's see what the TfN and DfT reaction is...

 

[STANDISH]

The delay is now being mentioned on the online edition of the Manchester Evening News.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The delay is now being mentioned on the online edition of the Manchester Evening News.

yup -

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ct-electrify-manchester-preston-rail-14141547

 

[Viscount702]

I think this is the fourth delay to the originally posted completion date (Dec 2016), which was still being forecast in Mar 2015.
If the new date is December, completion will have slipped 2 years in less than 3 elapsed years.
Today is the first time I can recall when a slip has actually been announced, as opposed to NR just posting a new date in the milestones.
The December milestones, less than a month old, say "not later than May 2018".
Doubtless, delay will put the cost up.

The good news, of course, is that there's no mention of Preston-Blackpool delays.

When this happened to EGIP the SG went apoplectic, and there were awkward moments for NR at Holyrood.
Let's see what the TfN and DfT reaction is...

TfN Mute response
DfT Nothing as it wont make National Press.

I still dont buy the claim that ground conditions are the reason. It may be part of it but not in my view the main one which we will never know.
As you say it was originally supposed to be completed December 2016. It was
then delayed time and again for one reason or another. Yes there was the problem with BB but even when there was a new contractor progress was slow or non existant compared to Blackpool where progress was rapid to say the least even before the blockade.

Most people reading this thread could see that December 2017 wouldnt be met and queried May 2018 which proved to be correct. NR have known for sometime May wouldnt be met but once again have said nothing until they were forced to prompted I would think partly by the timetables appearing in OTT and partly because it was obvious that it wouldnt be finished.

What then has been the reason for the delay. Ground conditions has been part of it but slippage of 2 years in 3 cant be soley down to that. Money and lack of resources is I think the main reason. GWE has eaten all the money and caused diversion of resources to get whats left finished to the detriment of many of projects including NWE. More so with the resources left there were insufficient to complete phases 3 and 4 by there due revised dates. Something had to give and phase 4 was sacrificed to get 3 finished on time. Why?

Is it a coincidence that the rail Minister is a Blackpool MP. Also VTEC have caused the Government much grief recently by having to buyout them out because of late running infrastructure and I am sure they didnt want a repeat with VTWC because Blackpool wasnt finished and the headlines that would produce. Manchester Preston being delayed although giving rise to greater disruption affecting potentially the whole of the North it will be unlikely to get national coverage in the press only local, will not affect VTWC and cause the government least concern. Thats my view anyway

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

According to the Bolton News article, NR says there are still 200 foundations to go in, and 30% of those installed in the affected areas have had to be redesigned.
They also say that this is just a hiccup on the way to main delivery of the Great North Rail project in 2020.
Apart from the Liverpool upgrade which completes in December, what other projects are they meaning?
The milestones only show other 2018 work in the Calder Valley, with the Piccadilly/Oxford Road and Hope Valley improvements on hold waiting for DfT approval.

 

[IanXC]

Reminder to posters that this is an infrastructure thread, details of timetabling issues should be discussed in the appropriate thread, such as https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-timetable-plan-for-may-2018.147558/

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yes, but the chemicals would not have created running sands. The unexpected ground conditions would have largely been found with a decent ground investigations.

Unless acidic which eats/dissolves/reacts with limestone. Also Farnworth tunnel had numerous surveys but still ran into problems. Expect the unexpected and always put 6months contingency into plans especially where rolling stock cascades are heavily tied to infrastructure etc.

 

[LDECRexile]

Copy of letter to Lisa Nandy MP

North West Electrification Announcement

Dear Lisa

Since the start of our franchise in April 16 we have set out and shared the progress of our modernisation plans with you as we work to improve rail travel for customers in the north. We have already made important steps forward delivering the first real signs of our modernisation programme for our customers.

We have more than 60 refurbished Northern trains already out on the network and improvement work has started at more than 100 stations across the region. We have also introduced 100 new ticket vending machines, automatic barriers at stations, added hundreds of additional car parking spaces and recently opened our new train depot at Blackburn.

Another significant milestone of our modernisation plans are the service enhancements scheduled for May 18. Our timetable bid for May 18 was based on the Invitation to Tender and has always been critically dependent on the successful delivery of the North-West Electrification Programme on time. Our finite train resource means that we are reliant on the completion of this programme so that we can operate electric trains on new routes and release diesel trains to operate new services elsewhere in the north.

Network Rail have recently confirmed that the North-West Electrification programme has been experiencing delays and following recent discussions it became apparent that our May 18 timetable introduction was at risk. The most significant delay and primary concern is the phase 4 electrification between Bolton and Preston. This particular part of the electrification work was scheduled for completion in December but has been severely delayed due to poor ground conditions, which have prevented the installation of the power line stanchions. Network Rail have been carrying out work on the foundations over the Christmas period and this will continue throughout January with additional weekend engineering work which we have agreed to.

Despite all this additional engineering work Network Rail have confirmed that the required infrastructure will not be available in time for the introduction of our May 18 timetable as we planned. We have discussed a number of potential options with Network Rail including an additional extensive engineering blockade on the Bolton corridor during February & March, with the aim of recovering the programme.

As a responsible operator, we have always been very clear that we need to act in the best interest of our customers. If we were to agree to this extensive blockade it would present our customers travelling on the Atherton and Bolton lines with further disruption and delay at very short notice and with an uncertain defined benefit guaranteed beyond the closure. The impact of this closure would be a significant step-up in disruption from anything previously considered on what is one of the busiest parts of our network.

This risk is increased by the fact that a significant blockade of this kind would normally be planned at least 12 months in advance and is also not contained to the school holiday periods. We are therefore presently uncertain that we can secure sufficient bus resource to replicate the estimated 8,000 morning peak capacity for rail customers across these very busy lines.

Having considered the significant impact that our customers with be faced with if we were to go ahead with this closure, we have decided not to agree to this in favour of weekend and overnight possessions throughout summer. This option protects our customers from significant disruption and we will crucially not be attempting to deliver something that is extremely high risk, but indeed adds certainty to future planning. It also provides us with the opportunity to deliver a ‘robust’ series of phased timetable improvements ensuring a seamless delivery of service improvements that will not impact negatively on our customers.

The railways across the north of England continue to be in need of additional services and capacity to cater for the growing passenger numbers. While our planned service improvements will deliver much of this requirement any service changes need to be delivered robustly, with minimal risk and minimal disruption to our customers.

This is disappointing news for our customers who will have a longer wait, with more disruption, before they can experience the service enhancements Manchester to Bolton electrification will make possible. We are committed to working with our industry partners to complete the project to its revised schedule, while doing everything we can to minimise disruption to customer journeys. We will share more detail on any changes the delayed electrification work will have on planned improvements for the May 2018 timetable change as soon as we can.

I would like to reassure you that despite this delay our modernisation plans to transform the train journey experience for our customers by 2020 remains our number one focus, however it is imperative that we act in the best interest of our customers and that is why we have taken this decision.

Yours sincerely



Liam Sumpter

Regional Director

(Arriva)

 

[Railrover700]

This 'number one focus' of '2020' that we keep hearing about is a relatively new concept..........

Notes to editors

The north west electrification programme is being delivered in 5 phases between December 2013 and December 2016:

· phase 1: between Castlefield Junction and Newton Le Willows by December 2013

· phase 2a: Between Liverpool and Newton Le Willows

· phase 2b: Between Huyton and Wigan

· phase 2c: Between Castlefield Junction and Manchester Victoria, all by December 2014

· phase 3: Preston to Blackpool, by May 2016

· phase 4: Manchester Victoria to Preston (Euxton Junction), by December 2016

· phase 5: Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge, Guide Bridge to Stalybridge, December 2016

Published 17 July 2013
From:
Department for Transport and The Rt Hon Sir Patrick McLoughlin MP

 

[GRALISTAIR]

---- and primary concern is the phase 4 electrification between Bolton and Preston.

I made an incorrect assumption - I assumed the main problem was Bolton - Salford --- how wrong was I ? !

 

[Chester1]

I made an incorrect assumption - I assumed the main problem was Bolton - Salford --- how wrong was I ? !

It opens up the possibility of completing the section soon after May and running EMUs between Bolton and Manchester to reduce the number of DMUs required to run services on the whole route. A 6 week blockade while buses are available during the school summer holidays would be a good opportunity to finish the project. What a mess!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This has finally appeared on the Network Rail web site - nothing we didn't know.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/lnw/manchester-to-preston/
No new date offered.

We're working to complete the upgrade of the 25 mile stretch of track between Manchester and Preston. The project was due to complete this December but the discovery of old mine workings, running sand and varying layers of rock have held up the installation of hundreds of steel columns to carry the power cables for the introduction of electric trains. New engineering solutions have been needed - using steel cylinders and filling them with concrete to support poor ground conditions

 

[snowball]

This has finally appeared on the Network Rail web site - nothing we didn't know.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/lnw/manchester-to-preston/
No new date offered.

The Twitter feed has had this since this morning (well, yesterday morning now), saying "by autumn":

https://twitter.com/TheGNRP/status/951429440453652480

Poor ground conditions have delayed our Man-Preston upgrade. To complete work by autumn, trains will be replaced by

at weekends. Weekday services will run as normal. Please check before you travel. @TheBoltonNews @BBCRadioManc @MENnewsdesk @BBCNWT @GranadaReports @leponline

 

[snowball]

QUOTE [---- and primary concern is the phase 4 electrification between Bolton and Preston.] END QUOTE

I made an incorrect assumption - I assumed the main problem was Bolton - Salford --- how wrong was I ? !

However the letter to Lisa Nandy says a blockade would affect the Atherton line, therefore presumably Victoria to Crescent and/or Ordsall to Crescent would be part of the blockade, therefore it seems there's trouble at the Manchester end too.

 

[PR1Berske]

Somewhat frustrating waking up to this news.

 

[mwmbwls]

However the letter to Lisa Nandy says a blockade would affect the Atherton line, therefore presumably Victoria to Crescent and/or Ordsall to Crescent would be part of the blockade, therefore it seems there's trouble at the Manchester end too.

On past occasions when the Bolton to Salford Crescent section has been closed Wigan North Western - Hindley - Atherton - Salford Crescent has been the primary diversion route for services to Victoria and for Piccadilly services that cannot be accommodated on the Chat Moss line.