TPExpress Man - Scotland

[Nev20]

Sorry if this has already been alluded too, but when are the 68s moving to TPE?

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't think the plan is to run 397s doubled up is it?

They wouldn't fit in the platforms at Manchester Airport. No idea if combined working of Manchester and Liverpool portions north of Preston is planned at all.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry if this has already been alluded too, but when are the 68s moving to TPE?

Already happened for driver training purposes, limited passenger service (Scarborough?) should apparently start in May. From memory, I'm sure there'll be a detailed discussion somewhere in the rolling stock forum area...

 

[YorkshireBear]

They wouldn't fit in the platforms at Manchester Airport. No idea if combined working of Manchester and Liverpool portions north of Preston is planned at all.

That's what i thought...

 

[Bovverboy]

YorkshireBear said: ↑
I don't think the plan is to run 397s doubled up is it?

I just presumed that it would be. After all, if the double 350s are going to be replaced by single 397s, then that's a reduction in capacity from 410 seats to 286, which makes a nonsense of all the hype about increasing capacity. I agree that a double 397 is an awfully long train, but it's no longer than a 9-car Pendolino, and the latter routinely call at all but three of the stations which the double 350s currently do. (That's regarding Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly as a separate entity to the main concourse).

They wouldn't fit in the platforms at Manchester Airport. No idea if combined working of Manchester and Liverpool portions north of Preston is planned at all.

Are 9-car Pendolinos similarly too big for Manchester Airport? I admit I don't know the answer to this, I've tried to find some information but haven't been successful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A double 397 *is* longer than a 9-car Pendolino, they are 23m vehicles (Pendolinos are 25m end, 24m intermediate) so the same length as a double Voyager. Only the LHCS is 22m.

 

[WatcherZero]

My understanding and disappointment was it was planned that the 397 would be operating singly, they might double up at Preston but in usual service we will be seeing 8x20m replaced with the 5x23m however there is a recognition by planners that Airport platforms need to be lengthened and in the medium/long term we may see them able to accommodate doubled up or WCML stock displaced by HS2.

 

[Mollman]

8 coach 350s aren't needed however 4 coaches are too short and therefore the only way to solve it at the moment is to double them up. The real comparison is a 6 coach 185 which is 308 standard seats. Double sets will be used to combine the Liverpool and Manchester portions given the lack of spare paths north of Preston. I personally think that it is not the number of units order that is the issue it is the fact that they have gone for 5 rather than 6 coaches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding and disappointment was it was planned that the 397 would be operating singly, they might double up at Preston but in usual service we will be seeing 8x20m replaced with the 5x23m however there is a recognition by planners that Airport platforms need to be lengthened and in the medium/long term we may see them able to accommodate doubled up or WCML stock displaced by HS2.

Not many services are 8x20m, though, most are 4.

Ideally long term there would be an hourly through service from Liverpool which would mean all trains 10-car north of Preston, but that would require more stock. The issue of Wigan commuters would be best resolved a different way, namely by keeping intra-PTE commuters off what is an InterCity service.

With that service you could even be "dead clever" (tm) and run it something like Liverpool to Glasgow/Manchester to Edinburgh (swapping them over every hour so each city gets two-hourly to each, running as a 10-car set between Preston and Carlisle/Lockerbie). ISTR that's actually what did happen with the old portion-worked Class 158 service, albeit only twice a day.

 

[Muzer]

God, the lack of foresight on the railway is so depressing sometimes.

 

[greyman42]

What will be the stopping pattern for the Liverpool - Edinburgh via the east coast?

 

[backontrack]

TPE themselves say that services currently terminating at Newcastle will be extended to Edinburgh (presumably only some of them) in December 2019.

1tph I presume.

 

[Bevan Price]

8 coach 350s aren't needed however 4 coaches are too short and therefore the only way to solve it at the moment is to double them up. .

8 coach 350s ARE needed on some of the busier services; I have seen some 8 coach formations that were "full and standing" at both Manchester & Preston. No way that the new 5 coach sets are going to be adequate on those services.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not many services are 8x20m, though, most are 4.

Friday-Sunday they put on every unit they have available.

 

[Mathew S]

8 coach 350s ARE needed on some of the busier services; I have seen some 8 coach formations that were "full and standing" at both Manchester & Preston. No way that the new 5 coach sets are going to be adequate on those services.

That's very much the exception, though, and increased capacity overall between Preston and Manchester will help ease that, as will the fact that the TPE services are to be pickup/setdown only at Bolton which takes a whole load of commuters off them. I use the current 350s more days than I don't at the moment, at various times and in both directions between Manchester & Wigan, and other than two services in the morning, it's very, very unusual that I don't get a seat. There are rarely more than 15/20 people standing in each carriage even on the busiest service, which I don't think is unreasonable for a peak commuter service even if it's not ideal. Of course, a number of passengers seem to be allergic to sitting down and choose to stand, but that's their own problem.

 

[sprinterguy]

Are 9-car Pendolinos similarly too big for Manchester Airport?

Yep, a 9-car Pendolino would be overlength, too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's very much the exception, though, and increased capacity overall between Preston and Manchester will help ease that, as will the fact that the TPE services are to be pickup/setdown only at Bolton which takes a whole load of commuters off them. I use the current 350s more days than I don't at the moment, at various times and in both directions between Manchester & Wigan, and other than two services in the morning, it's very, very unusual that I don't get a seat. There are rarely more than 15/20 people standing in each carriage even on the busiest service, which I don't think is unreasonable for a peak commuter service even if it's not ideal. Of course, a number of passengers seem to be allergic to sitting down and choose to stand, but that's their own problem.

I think one argument, and it's a valid one (and unlike in Reading much easier to resolve because all that is required to solve it is a Class 319, a driver and a guard to run another service just in front or behind it), is that it is not a local/regional commuter train and that there shouldn't therefore be *any* local/regional commuters on it. I'm inclined to agree.

TPE "proper" is much more blurred, but really now they run via Wigan these are pure InterCity.

 

[BMIFlyer]

A few pointers...

From May 21 the TPE Scotland trains between Man air and Preston will call as follows...

Man Air
Man Picc
Preston

Other way round heading South. No Wigan and no Oxford Road due to time constrains with not being routed via Bolton yet.

Most of the trains that TPE run will lose the Penrith call as well.

They wouldn't fit in the platforms at Manchester Airport. No idea if combined working of Manchester and Liverpool portions north of Preston is planned at all.

No doubled up trains. The couplers are designed to be used for rescue purposes only, primarily. There is a possibility that the 397 fleet wont be 5 cars for very long, in fact a 6th car may be added not long after service entry.

Ideally long term there would be an hourly through service from Liverpool which would mean all trains 10-car north of Preston, but that would require more stock. The issue of Wigan commuters would be best resolved a different way, namely by keeping intra-PTE commuters off what is an InterCity service.

With that service you could even be "dead clever" (tm) and run it something like Liverpool to Glasgow/Manchester to Edinburgh (swapping them over every hour so each city gets two-hourly to each, running as a 10-car set between Preston and Carlisle/Lockerbie). ISTR that's actually what did happen with the old portion-worked Class 158 service, albeit only twice a day.

At the moment it will purely be 3 services each way Glasgow to Liverpool which will utilize 2 sets in total.

8 coach 350s aren't needed however 4 coaches are too short and therefore the only way to solve it at the moment is to double them up. The real comparison is a 6 coach 185 which is 308 standard seats. Double sets will be used to combine the Liverpool and Manchester portions given the lack of spare paths north of Preston. I personally think that it is not the number of units order that is the issue it is the fact that they have gone for 5 rather than 6 coaches.

Many of the 8 car 350's are full primarily due to the massive amount of advance tickets sold for each service. This will be changing.

I can't really add much more to this, yet.

 

[Mathew S]

A few pointers...

From May 21 the TPE Scotland trains between Man air and Preston will call as follows...

Man Air
Man Picc
Preston

Other way round heading South. No Wigan and no Oxford Road due to time constrains with not being routed via Bolton yet.

Most of the trains that TPE run will lose the Penrith call as well.



No doubled up trains. The couplers are designed to be used for rescue purposes only, primarily. There is a possibility that the 397 fleet wont be 5 cars for very long, in fact a 6th car may be added not long after service entry.


At the moment it will purely be 3 services each way Glasgow to Liverpool which will utilize 2 sets in total.


Many of the 8 car 350's are full primarily due to the massive amount of advance tickets sold for each service. This will be changing.

I can't really add much more to this, yet.

Thanks for this. Pretty much what I was expecting. Be interesting to see (for me personally) whether Northern are able to pick up the slack this creates between Wigan and Manchester. There are going to be some grumpy people when they lose the 350s.

 

[Senex]

A few pointers...

From May 21 the TPE Scotland trains between Man air and Preston will call as follows...

Man Air
Man Picc
Preston

Other way round heading South. No Wigan and no Oxford Road due to time constrains with not being routed via Bolton yet.

Most of the trains that TPE run will lose the Penrith call as well.

Nice to see proper inter-city stop-spacing, even if only on a temporary basis because of the eternally drawn-out electrification. And interesting that the Penrith stops are to go too. It would be good if half the Lockerbie stops could go next, to be taken up by the Birmingham (or even London) services.

 

[Philip]

A few pointers...

From May 21 the TPE Scotland trains between Man air and Preston will call as follows...

Man Air
Man Picc
Preston

Other way round heading South. No Wigan and no Oxford Road due to time constrains with not being routed via Bolton yet.

Most of the trains that TPE run will lose the Penrith call as well.



No doubled up trains. The couplers are designed to be used for rescue purposes only, primarily. There is a possibility that the 397 fleet wont be 5 cars for very long, in fact a 6th car may be added not long after service entry.


At the moment it will purely be 3 services each way Glasgow to Liverpool which will utilize 2 sets in total.


Many of the 8 car 350's are full primarily due to the massive amount of advance tickets sold for each service. This will be changing.

I can't really add much more to this, yet.

Do you know if 185s will still be used for additional strengthening at the weekend, even after the 397s enter service?

 

[Bovverboy]

Do you know if 185s will still be used for additional strengthening at the weekend, even after the 397s enter service?

Well, if what has been said is correct, i.e. the 397s are not going to be operated in multiple, the answer is no. Eight 397s on Manchester - Scotland, two on Liverpool - Glasgow, two spare.
Whether a single 397 will prove an adequate replacement for a double 350 is another matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nice to see proper inter-city stop-spacing, even if only on a temporary basis because of the eternally drawn-out electrification. And interesting that the Penrith stops are to go too.

Must admit that my personal view is that everything, once on the WCML, should call at all stations between Preston and Carlisle rather than the random skip stopping.

If they're dropping Penrith are VTWC adding stops they presently miss, or is that a loss of 1tph there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, if what has been said is correct, i.e. the 397s are not going to be operated in multiple, the answer is no. Eight 397s on Manchester - Scotland, two on Liverpool - Glasgow, two spare.
Whether a single 397 will prove an adequate replacement for a double 350 is another matter.

I predict overcrowding from suppressed demand and then (hopefully) a follow on order to take all the sets (of all types) to 6 car and possibly even some to 7.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its interesting as Northern have ruled out lengthening their new stock in future saying if more is required they would be additional units.

 

[Bovverboy]

I predict overcrowding from suppressed demand and then (hopefully) a follow on order to take all the sets (of all types) to 6 car and possibly even some to 7.

What would you say is currently suppressing it?

Can anyone tell me why the Manchester to Edinburgh services are much more heavily patronised than the Manchester to Glasgow? Glasgow is a much bigger place than Edinburgh, and that seems to be reflected in the fact that there are far more VTWC services to Glasgow than Edinburgh.

 

[Altfish]

A few pointers...

From May 21 the TPE Scotland trains between Man air and Preston will call as follows...

Man Air
Man Picc
Preston

Other way round heading South. No Wigan and no Oxford Road due to time constrains with not being routed via Bolton yet.

Many of the 8 car 350's are full primarily due to the massive amount of advance tickets sold for each service. This will be changing.

I can't really add much more to this, yet.

Well, that's one way to stop overcrowding. Let's not stop at some stations so we don't pick as many passengers up!
They could in the long term run Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh non-stop, might get away with a two car train then.
Priceless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would you say is currently suppressing it?

Overcrowding, which like traffic congestion tends to self-manage as people avoid using known overcrowded services. TPE generally is seriously overcrowded, and so I think when more capacity becomes available (not to mention in what looks to be a very high quality environment) some or all of the new capacity will soon re-fill.

Can anyone tell me why the Manchester to Edinburgh services are much more heavily patronised than the Manchester to Glasgow? Glasgow is a much bigger place than Edinburgh, and that seems to be reflected in the fact that there are far more VTWC services to Glasgow than Edinburgh.

Edinburgh classically has more demand because (a) the tourist demand is much higher, and (b) it is the capital. More VTWC services go to Glasgow because classically, from London, the West Coast serves Glasgow and the East Coast serves Edinburgh, and that will no doubt be set out in their franchise agreement.

 

[hibtastic]

Edinburgh classically has more demand because (a) the tourist demand is much higher, and (b) it is the capital. More VTWC services go to Glasgow because classically, from London, the West Coast serves Glasgow and the East Coast serves Edinburgh, and that will no doubt be set out in their franchise agreement.

Plus Edinburgh is a much nicer city...

 

[WatcherZero]

Glasgow is a much larger city and generates more organic passenger demand from residents/family/business while Edinburgh makes up through visitor demand from tourists/being the seat of government.