Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[jonesy3001]

only way folk will know if northern are keeping the 323s, if one gets repainted into the new colours and a complete interior refurbishment, if not then thats the answer to these rumours.

 

[47802]

Circumstances can change, GWR with their 365's is an example

Well yes but on the other hand Northern have refurbished 319's with a lease agreement and a franchise agreement, for Arriva to change it would need a very good offer from Porterbrook and I would think any change and increase in capacity above the franchise agreement would have to be approved by Dft.

In the case of the GWR 365's the change was made well before the 365's got anywhere near the GWR.

 

[pemma]

Keeping the 323s would have meant no new 331s, possibly wrecking the whole CAF new train order.

Not necessarily. Apparently the options of 3 car 319s and fitting air conditioning to the 319s were ruled out due to being too expensive. Even if refitting the 323s to Northern Connect standard was viable Northern wouldn't have had enough to keep them on Manchester area stopping services and use them on Northern Connect services and use them to provide 6 car workings in West Yorkshire, while taking on 323s which LM still required would have been a non-starter.

It's entirely possible if the 323s had been available that Northern would have had no long term plans for 319s and acquired even more new EMUs.

 

[pemma]

Well yes but on the other hand Northern have refurbished 319's with a lease agreement and a franchise agreement, for Arriva to change it would need a very good offer from Porterbrook and I would think any change and increase in capacity above the franchise agreement would have to be approved by Dft.

Worth remembering Northern have the option of handing back some 319s in 2020 anyway and if the 769 plan works out but they don't arrive in time for Northern (Northern signed up on the basis Porterbrook could deliver 8 by May 2018) then it could be a blessing in disguise for the Wales & Borders franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Keeping the 323s would have meant no new 331s, possibly wrecking the whole CAF new train order.

Why? The 331s are not replacing *all* of Northern's EMUs. Having both would give them a good modern fleet.

 

[jonesy3001]

i messaged northern this morning and they dont know whats happening with the 323s, i got this reply of northern before dinner.

Hi Dazza, I'm afraid we do not have any extra details on this yet, as soon as we do we will be updating our customers on our social media feeds. ^LM

 

[pemma]

i messaged northern this morning and they dont know whats happening with the 323s, i got this reply of northern before dinner.

Hi Dazza, I'm afraid we do not have any extra details on this yet, as soon as we do we will be updating our customers on our social media feeds. ^LM

The social media team aren't kept updated on rolling stock changes, they don't even know about the 170s transferring from Scotrail yet!

 

[lejog]

No point in me listing them all, but there are a few more than that

I have a handy list.

Newton-Le-Willows 106m/108m
Earlestown 145m/121m
St Helens Junction 118m/120m
Lea Green 107m/107m
Rainhill 179m/134m
Whiston 107m/107m
Huyton 154/153m
Roby 117m/153m
Broad Green 109m/117m
Wavertree 96m/96m

The only one of these stations that will take a 6*23m service is Huyton, which is possibly why the planned Northern Connect will stop there, if 6 car 195s run through from the Calder Valley.

 

[lejog]

The latter two are supposed to get platform lengthening to allow 6 x 23m, so without any further work it would be possible for 6 car 323s to leave Lime Street with the rear unit locked out-of-use and for it to be opened at Earlestown.

Where has this been announced? There's no mention of it as part of the Train Lengthening Programme in the Northern Franchise Agreement.

 

[pemma]

Where has this been announced? There's no mention of it as part of the Train Lengthening Programme in the Northern Franchise Agreement.

It was in a Network Rail document that mentioned specific stations.

 

[Nymanic]

It was in a Network Rail document that mentioned specific stations.

It could be this one you're alluding to. Either way, however, it's not a very recent document.

Page 134 does indeed mention lengthening at NLW, but not Earlestown.

 

[lejog]

And the latest version of the delivery plan (p70) removes the list of stations from the North West Train Lengthening project scope of works and replaces it with a statement:

Final scope and single option selection will be determined by the rolling stock strategy for services in the North West and the operational plans of the relevant new franchise holder

 

[brel york]

I think the recent rolling stock strategy across the industry is likely to throw up hundreds of these rumours as people try to find homes for several classes of train.

The thing about this rumour is it makes sense, the class 323s are popular with commuters and the class 319s have performance impacts on the routes they serve. Doesn't mean it is true but there is certainly an element of logic about it.

Since when has the railway bothered what commuters really think , most just want a decent train to turn up on time and a seat if possible, they don’t no the difference between classes . And as for logic , really lol

 

[geoffk]

There are no suitable pure EMU services in the Newcastle area though. ECML, Durham coast and Carlisle trains all interwork.

Morpeth services generally run to/from Metro Centre so a bit of extra wiring could enable that service to go electric. The better acceleration would certainly be handy on the ECML, which is getting more fast trains, including an hourly TPE to Edinburgh.

 

[swt_passenger]

Morpeth services generally run to/from Metro Centre so a bit of extra wiring could enable that service to go electric.

However in an upcoming timetable, as has been pointed out earlier, they run to or from Carlisle, and interwork far more than they do today.

 

[Class 170101]

Is it possible the Class 323s may be moved to Northern to replace the remaining Class 319s to enable them to go for conversion to Class 769s for Wales and Borders franchise?

With electrification now a non starter thanks to Chris Grayling and the PRM deadline coming up fast is it possible that the Class 319 conversion is the only game in town?

 

[Jonny]

Is it possible the Class 323s may be moved to Northern to replace the remaining Class 319s to enable them to go for conversion to Class 769s for Wales and Borders franchise?

With electrification now a non starter thanks to Chris Grayling and the PRM deadline coming up fast is it possible that the Class 319 conversion is the only game in town?

Possibly, but if Brexit goes through without a deal then PRM may be up the spout anyway.

 

[Domh245]

Is it possible the Class 323s may be moved to Northern to replace the remaining Class 319s to enable them to go for conversion to Class 769s for Wales and Borders franchise?

With electrification now a non starter thanks to Chris Grayling and the PRM deadline coming up fast is it possible that the Class 319 conversion is the only game in town?

I fail to see how that solves anything, seeing as the 323s aren't PRM compliant (and so would need refurbishing) and I severely doubt that you'd be able to convert enough 319s to 769s before 2020 to 'solve' the PRM issue for Wales.

 

[Grannyjoans]

As a Northern Mainline Driver I'd like to see this happen, the Driving Cab of a 323 is way better than a 319. More legroom and better controls on the 323. The acceleration is also a lot better than the 319 which tests my patience on the stopping work. During leaf fall the 319's can really struggle. Plus the 323's are fitted with LED's which makes night driving better than the dim lights on the 319.


The only problem I can see with this, the reduced capacity for the passengers, with the 323 only being 3-car instead of 4-car. On some routes e.g. Liverpool to Wigan/Preston, four cars are needed on the busier services. 2x 323's wouldn't fit on most of the platforms of many of the minor stations.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Possibly, but if Brexit goes through without a deal then PRM may be up the spout anyway.

Fake news! PRM rules have long since been enacted by the UK parliament and any attempt to revoke them would provoke uproar. In general terms this country is in any case well ahead of the EU when it comes to accessibility; if anything us leaving might tempt them to drag their heels even more.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Fake news! PRM rules have long since been enacted by the UK parliament and any attempt to revoke them would provoke uproar. In general terms this country is in any case well ahead of the EU when it comes to accessibility; if anything us leaving might tempt them to drag their heels even more.

Indeed the arbitrary date for compliance was set by the uk government with most othet eu countries only applying it to new stock!

Fake news indeed.

 

[D365]

Possibly, but if Brexit goes through without a deal then PRM may be up the spout anyway.

Once again: railway regulation is nothing to do with EU membership.

 

[pemma]

As a Northern Mainline Driver I'd like to see this happen, the Driving Cab of a 323 is way better than a 319. More legroom and better controls on the 323. The acceleration is also a lot better than the 319 which tests my patience on the stopping work. During leaf fall the 319's can really struggle. Plus the 323's are fitted with LED's which makes night driving better than the dim lights on the 319.

The only problem I can see with this, the reduced capacity for the passengers, with the 323 only being 3-car instead of 4-car. On some routes e.g. Liverpool to Wigan/Preston, four cars are needed on the busier services. 2x 323's wouldn't fit on most of the platforms of many of the minor stations.

Given Northern will have more EMUs if they finish up with all the 323s instead of 319s it's possible which services get the 331s (mix of 3 and 4 car) could be revised. Maybe some workings will be 6 car 323s instead of 4 car 331s leaving 4 car 331s for services which need more than 3 cars but which can't take 6.

While it wouldn't be popular with certain passengers I think it would make sense for West Yorkshire to get 323s instead of 331s, given the Yorkshire electric routes are all commuter stopping services and the North West electric routes will be a mix of stoppers and regional express services.

 

[scrapy]

The latter two are supposed to get platform lengthening to allow 6 x 23m, so without any further work it would be possible for 6 car 323s to leave Lime Street with the rear unit locked out-of-use and for it to be opened at Earlestown.

Guards get a 6 minute allowance for locking/unlocking a 3 car set where all doors need locking /unlocking individually which a 323 does. I am sure Network Rail would not agree to a unit sitting at Earlestown for 6 minutes whilst this is done.

 

[Rail Blues]

So apart from unsubstantiated chat by Northern drivers who seem to be putting 2+ 2 together and making 5, does it not seem like the 323s to Northern is pretty much wibble?

 

[Grannyjoans]

wishful thinking maybe by northern drivers stuck with 319's which are cramped and slow compared to a 323.

That 100mph capacity on the 319 sees very little use. Out of everywhere that the northern ones operate, it is reached for less than a minute between Wigan NW and Euxton Balshaw Lane and that's about it.

323's however get to 90mph quickly, and will spend a lot of time at 90mph.

 

[driver_m]

There's 37 350's up for grabs soon. Would you Northern Drivers not sooner have them? Start the rumour going from here haha!

They would be the ultimate replacement .Capacity AND can actually get to 100!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

wishful thinking maybe by northern drivers stuck with 319's which are cramped and slow compared to a 323.
That 100mph capacity on the 319 sees very little use. Out of everywhere that the northern ones operate, it is reached for less than a minute between Wigan NW and Euxton Balshaw Lane and that's about it.
323's however get to 90mph quickly, and will spend a lot of time at 90mph.

319s will be able to do 100mph on the Crewe line, and anywhere between Golborne and Lancaster if they work services to Oxenholme.
I thought the plan was to replace some 319s with 331s when they all arrive, leaving the remainder to be replaced in the next franchise.
By then there might well be 350s or 365s available (365s coming free from GN now).
It was bad timing when Northern needed EMUs for the Liverpool services, before anything better than 319s were available.
It was originally intended that they had a bigger upgrade including aircon and retractioning, but that was before all the electrification delays.
It might have been different if GWR were taking most of the fleet for the Thames Valley as the DfT originally planned.

 

[pemma]

There's 37 350's up for grabs soon. Would you Northern Drivers not sooner have them? Start the rumour going from here haha!

Richard Clinnick recently said Porterbrook have a plan for the future of 323s (no further details available yet) but don't for the 350/2s so if that's true a rumour about 350/2s going to Northern is less likely to be true.

 

[pemma]

319s will be able to do 100mph on the Crewe line

It was recently claimed by a driver doing an ECS working that using the driving technique instructed he only got to 100mph near Chelford when doing an ECS from Crewe to Manchester. If that's the case I can't see 319s getting to 100mph on any Northern stopping services.

I thought the plan was to replace some 319s with 331s when they all arrive, leaving the remainder to be replaced in the next franchise.

The franchise agreement makes reference to 5 x 319s going off-lease at the same time as the 321s and 322s but with proposed 769 conversions, a possibility Northern get fewer Sprinters than planned and delays to wiring, how knows exactly what will be the case in 2020.