Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[Bletchleyite]

Of course one thing no onesmentionedis all these brand new DMU's will need to be replaced by 2040

Or have their traction package removed and replaced with something else that provides a rotating shaft with the same speed and torque. The 230 specifically offers this, but there's no reason it can't be done to something else.

 

[pemma]

Is there a need for three car services where the Class 153s currently operate?

Perhaps not, but you put a 2 car something onto a service operated by a 153, and then use that 153 to strengthen a 2 car service to a 3 car service elsewhere.

Indeed. I'm not sure if it's still the case but at one point ATW were using a 150+158 combination on a North Wales coast service, if that became 158+153+153 then it means a 150 available to use to replace a single 153 or a Pacer elsewhere.

 

[pemma]

Of course one thing no onesmentionedis all these brand new DMU's will need to be replaced by 2040

Says who? No new diesel cars can be sold from 2040 but that doesn't mean existing diesel cars will be banned from the roads from that date or that it applies for trains as well.

It's also possible someone creates a diesel alternative fuel, like the leaded petrol alternative which was introduced when sales of leaded petrol was banned.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm sure I read in the past that the Welsh Government wanted to own rolling stock going forward (presumably through TfW) plus this is surely a WG contract not a Keolis-Amey one?

Rather vaguely, Ken Skates has announced somewhere that the stock will be financed directly by Welsh Government (ie no banks involved).
It's not clear who will be the "owner", or if there is a ROSCO handling life cycle issues.
The impression I get from the KeolisAmey version of the announcement is that they will be the owner.
It might yet turn out to be a IEP-like order, with WG signing the supply contract but then handing it to the TOCs to implement.
But very unclear just now.

 

[Domh245]

Says who? No new diesel cars can be sold from 2040 but that doesn't mean existing diesel cars will be banned from the roads from that date or that it applies for trains as well.

It's also possible someone creates a diesel alternative fuel, like the leaded petrol alternative which was introduced when sales of leaded petrol was banned.

Jo Johnson, that's who:

All diesel trains should be scrapped by 2040, Jo Johnson tells rail bosses

The rail industry should reduce its emissions by “aspiring” to remove all trains that run only on diesel by 2040, according to the new rail minister.

Campaigners welcomed the comments by Jo Johnson but questioned the government’s commitment to reducing rail emissions, pointing out that it had cancelled the electrification of key routes last year.

In a speech at the British Museum today, Mr Johnson will say: “I would like to see us take all diesel-only trains off the track by 2040. After all, we’re committed to ending the sales of petrol and diesel cars by 2040. If we can achieve that, then why can’t the railway aspire to a similar objective?”

Not "no new diesels" after 2040 but "no diesels" after 2040.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Jo Johnson, that's who:

All diesel trains should be scrapped by 2040, Jo Johnson tells rail bosses



Not "no new diesels" after 2040 but "no diesels" after 2040.

That’s an aspiration though, not a commitment

 

[pemma]

Jo Johnson, that's who:

Not "no new diesels" after 2040 but "no diesels" after 2040.

That's also a "I would like to see" from someone who won't be Transport Minister in 2040 not a "I'm working on legislation which will ban diesel trains from being used from 2040 once it's passed through parliament."

 

[daikilo]

Rather vaguely, Ken Skates has announced somewhere that the stock will be financed directly by Welsh Government (ie no banks involved).
It's not clear who will be the "owner", or if there is a ROSCO handling life cycle issues.
The impression I get from the KeolisAmey version of the announcement is that they will be the owner.
It might yet turn out to be a IEP-like order, with WG signing the supply contract but then handing it to the TOCs to implement.
But very unclear just now.

I have a feeling that Ken meant that financing would not be the responsibility of the TOC or a ROSCO. I also doubt that Keolis/Amey will be the owner. I expect the WG to arrange direct private finance over a fixed period with nominal ownership by say TfW. What this means for WG balance sheets I don't know.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's also a "I would like to see" from someone who won't be Transport Minister in 2040 not a "I'm working on legislation which will ban diesel trains from being used from 2040 once it's passed through parliament."

Not to mention he doesn't speak for Wales!

It certainly puts the spare 185s back in the frame for other TOCs.
I suppose we could speculate on whether the Mk4s will be hauled by the existing 67s (leased to DB) or new 68s.
Then we could have the debate about whether they are cleared for Holyhead-Cardiff (seeing as they are not cleared for the MML).
Somebody said the Mk3s would not continue as they are owned by Arriva/DB.
I know the Manchester set was supplied by DB - not sure about Gerald's stock.
Then there's whether KeolisAmey will be any more adept than Arriva Rail North in training for a complete fleet replacement (and Metro startup).

 

[Bornin1980s]

Personally, I'm glad they ignored Jo Johnson and ordered what they urgently need right now, which is diesels - lots of them!

 

[swt_passenger]

I appreciate it isn't as simple as all that, but given the subsidy required for HOWL, I'd have thought the LO 172s would be a better fit (once fitted with loos) due to being lighter and more economical.

Despite already being contracted elsewhere, ie in the West Midlands.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think the 50% made in Wales is a contract commitment not an actual number, elsewhere it says final stock selection is subject to track surveys, the bidder might have something in mind but it may need further study to see if its indeed workable. Theres also similar the commitment to use 100% renewable energy of which 50% will be produced in Wales.

 

[Mikey C]

For the Heart of Wales line, wouldn't the end doored 175s have made more sense than 170s, which are better suited for busier services needing a faster turnaround at stations?

 

[krus_aragon]

For the Heart of Wales line, wouldn't the end doored 175s have made more sense than 170s, which are better suited for busier services needing a faster turnaround at stations?

The current rolling stock plan has the 170s introduced and kept until 2025 onwards, with the 175 off-lease from 2022. New lease agreements aside, there's nothing to stop TfW changing their minds and keeping the 175s if another franchise decides they really want the 170s off their hands instead. I suppose the downside is that TfW keeping some of the 175s leaves a smaller microfleet for the ROSCO to try to sell elsewhere.

 

[Gareth Marston]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/busin...plans to change the Wales and Borders network

Link to the infographic on timetable for delivery.

 

[krus_aragon]

Much of the literature released makes use of the acronyms CVL and WCB. CVL I can identify as Core Valley Lines, but I've yet to decode WCB. Has anyone gotten there ahead of me?

 

[Domh245]

Amusing that they don't want to mention what those new trains for the North Wales Metro are!

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the Heart of Wales line, wouldn't the end doored 175s have made more sense than 170s, which are better suited for busier services needing a faster turnaround at stations?

170s are reliable, 175s are not.

It's a real shame as the interiors are really nice, but really Alstom built a load of rubbish quality wise at that point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Amusing that they don't want to mention what those new trains for the North Wales Metro are!

If I was getting a doubled service on my local rural line I wouldn't give a monkeys' what they were.

A half hourly service on what is basically a branch line. It's really quite impressive.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think that introduction of 1st class is a bad idea. Whilst they may claim increased capacity, I suspect it is almost inevitable that some 2 & 3 coach dmus will appear on the core Swansea / Cardiff to Manchester services. Providing 1st Class will mean a reduction in the number of standard class seats, causing more overcrowding on some services that are already quite busy. A better solution would to be to ensure that all standard class areas are comfortable with adequate legroom -- as already applies to Class 175.

 

[ash39]

170s are reliable, 175s are not.

It's a real shame as the interiors are really nice, but really Alstom built a load of rubbish quality wise at that point.

There seems to be a lot of admiration for the passenger experience on the 175's, are they really that well thought of?

I might have had bad luck with ropey units, but in my experience they are hot and stuffy, the engine drone is more irritating than on any other DMU I can think of, and the seat pitch is awful for trying to maintain a decent posture.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There seems to be a lot of admiration for the passenger experience on the 175's, are they really that well thought of?

I think so, yes.

I might have had bad luck with ropey units, but in my experience they are hot and stuffy, the engine drone is more irritating than on any other DMU I can think of, and the seat pitch is awful for trying to maintain a decent posture.

The seat pitch is excellent, helped by seats with a clever design that put the space at the outer sides where your knees go rather than in the middle where they don't. That's their best feature.

You shouldn't need your knees to press on the seat in front to maintain a good posture. If you do, that's a badly designed seat.

 

[Mikey C]

I rarely use the 175s, but thought them nice inside, the end door layout makes them feel more like "proper" longer distance units.

The current rolling stock plan has the 170s introduced and kept until 2025 onwards, with the 175 off-lease from 2022. New lease agreements aside, there's nothing to stop TfW changing their minds and keeping the 175s if another franchise decides they really want the 170s off their hands instead. I suppose the downside is that TfW keeping some of the 175s leaves a smaller microfleet for the ROSCO to try to sell elsewhere.

I can see the attraction of not wanting to split the 175 fleet between 2 operators, but it would be a shame if they ended up on the scrapheap while everyone scrabbles for the Turbostars (where any surplus could surely find a good home with Chiltern or indeed for East West rail.

 

[kje7812]

I've always found them to be quite comfortable, certainly compared to 158s and 150s.

 

[Philip]

I'm unsure about the regular Holyhead-Cardiff service; is it going hourly as was rumoured or is it staying bi-hourly?

Suspect Northern will get the 22 extra 185s now, unless TPE take over the Nottingham-Liverpool services. In terms of second-hand DMUs going spare, surely the 22 185s will fetch the highest price? They're solidly the best of the bunch. Class 175s to ScotRail or South West trains maybe?

 

[Rail Blues]

170s are reliable, 175s are not.

It's a real shame as the interiors are really nice, but really Alstom built a load of rubbish quality wise at that point.

I was thinking this the other day, they had a run of turning out utter dreck in the early 2000s. The 175s, 460s and 334s, have all proved problematic in service. Didn't they have to give ScotRail two additional 334s as they'd messed them around so much? The only thing they got half right was the 390 and that was a Fiat design. Is this why they haven't featured in the UK market much since then?

 

[craigybagel]

170s are reliable, 175s are not.

It's a real shame as the interiors are really nice, but really Alstom built a load of rubbish quality wise at that point.

I was thinking this the other day, they had a run of turning out utter dreck in the early 2000s. The 175s, 460s and 334s, have all proved problematic in service. Didn't they have to give ScotRail two additional 334s as they'd messed them around so much? The only thing they got half right was the 390 and that was a Fiat design. Is this why they haven't featured in the UK market much since then?

Bletchleyites information is about 10 years out of date. Yes, the 175s were very unreliable when they were introduced, as was a lot of Alstom stock back then. Today though it's a very different manner. Take it from someone who spends most of his working days on them - all they need is a refurb and they'd be some of the best DMUs in the UK. I'm hoping as part of the changes to the franchise they'll get that refurb as it's a long wait till their replacements arrive.

 

[headshot119]

Bletchleyites information is about 10 years out of date. Yes, the 175s were very unreliable when they were introduced, as was a lot of Alstom stock back then. Today though it's a very different manner. Take it from someone who spends most of his working days on them - all they need is a refurb and they'd be some of the best DMUs in the UK. I'm hoping as part of the changes to the franchise they'll get that refurb as it's a long wait till their replacements arrive.

He does seem to have a particular dislike for them.

I much prefer them over 158s, if only they had plug sockets.

 

[mmh]

Such a deal would have benefits elsewhere, such as all 15x going to Northern, and the awful 175s in the bin.

What a bizarre thing to say, the 175s are by far the most comfortable trains ATW use. They're the closest any post-BR DMU has come to looking like a Mk3 coach, externally and internally, and I'd say despite their age still the most comfortable sub-125mph DMU.

 

[driver_m]

Bletcheyite is entitled to his opinion on them, however I think his opinion on the 175 is completely wrong. I've travelled on them many a time, never been on one that's failed in service and yes they are extremely comfortable. Also been in the cab of them many times road learning and the cab environment isn't bad at all . As has been said, given them a proper half life refurb that makes them more reliable, and someone should get an excellent train out of them.