Economic Case for the Far North Line

[70014IronDuke]

There has to be some mechanism by which an almost unused station, line or service can be axed. It is irresponsible to preserve the past in some sort of expensive deep freeze at the taxpayers expenses. Given there is likely to be 100% car use somewhere that remote the hardship would be almost zero.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? The pendulum has swung so far away from how it was in the 1960s, and even later, judging by the emotional reaction to this closure proposal. I'm kind of suprised they actually made an official closure proposal, rather than just drop the stops to one train each way per day - rather than the 4 each way per day, as it stands.

 

[Kite159]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? The pendulum has swung so far away from how it was in the 1960s, and even later, judging by the emotional reaction to this closure proposal. I'm kind of suprised they actually made an official closure proposal, rather than just drop the stops to one train each way per day - rather than the 4 each way per day, as it stands.

Next up someone will be demanding the platform is raised to modern standards, as the current platform wouldn't look out of place on light rail networks

 

[yorksrob]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? The pendulum has swung so far away from how it was in the 1960s, and even later, .

Yes, a good safety net, given misjudgements visited on the population during the 1960's and 70's. That said, Folkestone Harbour was done recently, so it can still be done when necessary.

 

[jayah]

Yes, a good safety net, given misjudgements visited on the population during the 1960's and 70's. That said, Folkestone Harbour was done recently, so it can still be done when necessary.

Folkestone Harbour hasn't had a scheduled passenger service since about 2000 when the cross channel ferries stopped.
There remain a slug of stations on the ORR database with <150 pax per year that are never even considered for closure despite the fact that emptying the bins or lighting the platform costs more than they bring.

 

[yorksrob]

Folkestone Harbour hasn't had a scheduled passenger service since about 2000 when the cross channel ferries stopped.
There remain a slug of stations on the ORR database with <150 pax per year that are never even considered for closure despite the fact that emptying the bins or lighting the platform costs more than they bring.

And do you know that they empty bins?

Keeping a few stops on is so much better than having to fight the closure of a load of well used stations, which is what you'll end up with if you give the Establishment Carte Blanche to propose closing things.

 

[Esker-pades]

Arrant nonsense?

The fact is that if you actually want to travel to the highlands for reasons other than the journey itself, you would drive/take a coach because it is much faster.
It's 3 hours instead of 4.

It is possible to do journeys other than end to end.
The discounted travel for residents will encourage some.
The X99 (Inverness to Thurso) runs thrice per day in each direction. The 3h30m journey time Inverness to Thurso is comparable with the train. The last departure south (full length) is also 11am.

 

[Killingworth]

And do you know that they empty bins?

Keeping a few stops on is so much better than having to fight the closure of a load of well used stations, which is what you'll end up with if you give the Establishment Carte Blanche to propose closing things.

As I grow older I'm no longer amazed at how wars start. If a little station miles from anywhere, used by a handful of people, can't be closed the network wil be stuck for ever with many other stations that are no longer providing a service to suit today's needs. The railway needs a degree of flexibilty. Some stations need moving to more suitable sites, we need some brand new stations, many stations badly need further investment, and some may have to close.

See these pictures to judge for yourselves, 76 passengers, in a year, to use this platform, cycles and all. https://www.geograph.org.uk/stuff/list.php?title=Kildonan+Station&gridref=NC9021

And for balance this one as proof of the lack of any significant time savings if the staton were closed. https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5078670

However, with all these comments I'm sure enough will now be booking to go there as a show of support, and double the numbers for 2018/19.

 

[HSTEd]

The X99 (Inverness to Thurso) runs thrice per day in each direction. The 3h30m journey time Inverness to Thurso is comparable with the train.

If the best you can do is be "comparable" with a bus/coach service, you are in serious trouble

What reason is there to subsidise the railway line rather than a handful of additional coach/bus journeys?

 

[Killingworth]

It is possible to do journeys other than end to end.
The discounted travel for residents will encourage some.
The X99 (Inverness to Thurso) runs thrice per day in each direction. The 3h30m journey time Inverness to Thurso is comparable with the train. The last departure south (full length) is also 11am.

THe X99 doesn't go anywhere near Kildonan. https://www.stagecoachbus.com/route...crabster-pier-inverness-bus-station/xiax099.i

 

[Esker-pades]

If the best you can do is be "comparable" with a bus/coach service, you are in serious trouble

What reason is there to subsidise the railway line rather than a handful of additional coach/bus journeys?

Environmental factors, passenger load capabilities, lobbying, etc.

Also, why is being comparable with the only other form of public transport being in serious trouble?

 

[najaB]

Since when have Highland halts had PISs?

I've not been that far north for a while but they've definitely popped up further south on the line. In any case, a help point requires power and comms the same as a PIS.

 

[Killingworth]

The crossing is being upgraded - see post #1.

Still won't save 4 minutes.

 

[najaB]

Still won't save 4 minutes.

On average, perhaps not. In the worst case on a wet autumn night: stop-start-stop-dwell-start could add up to 4 minutes.

 

[HSTEd]

Environmental factors, passenger load capabilities, lobbying, etc.

A railway should exist for lobbying?

And passenger load capabilities hardly applies to the Far North line, and especially not to the likes of this railway station, with its 76 passengers per year.

Also, why is being comparable with the only other form of public transport being in serious trouble?

When you manage to be slower than the form of transport often regarded as the slow-moving bargain-basement form of long distance transport, you are seriously in trouble.
Rail's modern USP is that it is faster than coaches, and this patently isn't.

 

[najaB]

Rail's modern USP is that it is faster than coaches, and this patently isn't.

That depends, of course, on the journey you're making.

 

[Highland37]

There are very few locals/residents who use the train instead of the bus from Thurso or Wick as it's so slow. The bus service is much faster and better. The only way I can see of making the journey faster is introducing a 2 tier service of all stops and limited stops. Basically it's stuck in the 1940s with 1980s technology layered on top.

 

[Steamysandy]

There are very few locals/residents who use the train instead of the bus from Thurso or Wick as it's so slow. The bus service is much faster and better. The only way I can see of making the journey faster is introducing a 2 tier service of all stops and limited stops. Basically it's stuck in the 1940s with 1980s technology layered on top.

Is the bus service better? Not according to a friend who lives in Orkney.Only one bus a day connects with the Orkney ferry and the last bus south is at 11 o clock .Northbound is no better with a service from Inverness at 2-30 pm!
I also hear that the quality of buses used is nothing to write home about.
Now it's Stagecoach,in 1999 it was Rapsons under the Citylink banner and there were several buses daily. I left Inverness at 8am to get the lunchtime sailing from Scrabster.Now that's impossible!
Incidentally Stagecoach have just had 30 vehicle operating licences cancelled by the Traffic Commissioner for appalling service in Orkney itself but this is part of Stagecoach Highland

 

[najaB]

The only way I can see of making the journey faster is introducing a 2 tier service of all stops and limited stops. Basically it's stuck in the 1940s with 1980s technology layered on top.

If i had a reasonable pot of money, I'd tackle reliability first with a long loop using the previously double section through Lentran. Then I'd upgrade Evanton to a station with loop. Next, to tackle journey times it would be a West/North chord at Georgemas (moving the station to Halkirk), barriering all the level crossings, replacing the switches at the loops to ones that can safely/reliably support a higher entry speed and replacing all remaining jointed track with CWR (with remedial works done to any formation issues). With a huge pot of money, a Larig cutoff needs to be the focus.

 

[HSTEd]

Is the bus service better? Not according to a friend who lives in Orkney.Only one bus a day connects with the Orkney ferry and the last bus south is at 11 o clock .Northbound is no better with a service from Inverness at 2-30 pm!
I also hear that the quality of buses used is nothing to write home about.
Now it's Stagecoach,in 1999 it was Rapsons under the Citylink banner and there were several buses daily. I left Inverness at 8am to get the lunchtime sailing from Scrabster.Now that's impossible!
Incidentally Stagecoach have just had 30 vehicle operating licences cancelled by the Traffic Commissioner for appalling service in Orkney itself but this is part of Stagecoach Highland

However the argument could be made that it would be better value for money for the government to forget the passenger railway and subsidise a more frequent bus service instead.

This comes down the central issue - what is the point of this railway?
Is it a serious method of transport for the local population, is it a tourism magnet or is it merely in existence because it is too politically difficult to accept the reality of the local environment?

 

[Steamysandy]

However the argument could be made that it would be better value for money for the government to forget the passenger railway and subsidise a more frequent bus service instead.

This comes down the central issue - what is the point of this railway?
Is it a serious method of transport for the local population, is it a tourism magnet or is it merely in existence because it is too politically difficult to accept the reality of the local environment?

There is more than just passenger traffic on this line with Tesco at least till recently having containers distributed from Georgemas Junction.In addition the road used by the bus is very steep and winding particularly south of Lybster and in the vicinity of Berriedale.
Is the previous poster aware of the realities of the local environment- I wonder?
Has he ever been up there because I have.
And there are more trains than buses between Wick/Thurso and Inverness!

 

[najaB]

Is it a serious method of transport for the local population, is it a tourism magnet or is it merely in existence because it is too politically difficult to accept the reality of the local environment?

Aside from its importance as a passenger railway, as was pointed out above it is very much needed for the transport of highly active waste from Dounreay to Sellafield. It has, until recently, provided intermodal freight services from Mossend (?) with positive moves towards reinstating this flow, and also supported the oil and gas industry. If the recent creep back up closer to £80/bbl proves to be a long term thing that traffic may return as well.

 

[Steamysandy]

Following on from the previous poster,there was a regular flow of pipes for North Sea oil to Georgemas Junction which still has potential

 

[HSTEd]

Aside from its importance as a passenger railway, as was pointed out above it is very much needed for the transport of highly active waste from Dounreay to Sellafield.

Except the policy of the Scottish Government and the Dounreay site management team is that highly active waste is not to be tranported south and willl remain on or near the site for the forseable future.
The plutonium and HEU stockpiles have, I believe, already been evacuated.

It has, until recently, provided intermodal freight services from Mossend (?) with positive moves towards reinstating this flow, and also supported the oil and gas industry. If the recent creep back up closer to £80/bbl proves to be a long term thing that traffic may return as well.

Oil and gas facilities are unlikely to grow drastically however, even if the oil price rise is sustained it is unlikely that there will be a major business case for new facilities given the proven high price of oil in the North Sea (well above $50/bbl breakeven).

There is more than just passenger traffic on this line with Tesco at least till recently having containers distributed from Georgemas Junction.

So an abandoned container flow is a major reason to keep a long, extremely rural railway open at significant cost?

In addition the road used by the bus is very steep and winding particularly south of Lybster and in the vicinity of Berriedale.

And yet the bus still easily beats the end-to-end timing of the train?

And there are more trains than buses between Wick/Thurso and Inverness!

And if passenger operations were abandoned there would be plenty of money to subsidise additional buses.
The railway as it exists today is extermely inefficient and simply serves to squander public money - either abandon the passenger operations and possibly the freight ones or spend the money to actually make it useful as a method of transport.

 

[najaB]

Except the policy of the Scottish Government and the Dounreay site management team is that highly active waste is not to be tranported south and willl remain on or near the site for the forseable future

It will be transferred. Despite the posturing of the Scottish Government, long term on-site storage just isn't an option.

 

[InOban]

And the notorious Berriedale Braes will be reconstructed within the next few years.

The total traffic from Wick and Thurso is about a third of that from Oban, if I'm reading the ORR statistics.

The idea that once people have got into their car they will drive the whole way? I understand that park and ride has been successful in many places! And Parkway stations.

 

[HSTEd]

It will be transferred. Despite the posturing of the Scottish Government, long term on-site storage just isn't an option.

That depends, considering we will have no place to send it this century it might be cheaper to just leave it in place - that way you only have to move it once instead of twice.
Long term storage is de-facto an option, because kicking the can down the road achieves the same!

One of my course modules was on disposal of nuclear waste and there were many chuckles from the room, including from the lecturer, when he quoted a government report that a geological repository will be accepting waste in 2075....

 

[Esker-pades]

So an abandoned container flow is a major reason to keep a long, extremely rural railway open at significant cost?

Pipes service ran this week.

 

[Esker-pades]

A railway should exist for lobbying?

Lobbying counts as any attempt to influence government policy/change their mind. So, a request for a subsidy for the train counts as lobbying.

And passenger load capabilities hardly applies to the Far North line, and especially not to the likes of this railway station, with its 76 passengers per year.

I don't know if you've travelled on the Far North Line, but most services are well loaded. Most passengers are not tourists. The 10:41 Inverness to Wick with the 16:00 return is the most popular for those doing the tourist run, and one doesn't usually get more than 2 or 3 groups out of a well-loaded 158.

And yet the bus still easily beats the end-to-end timing of the train?

As stated before, the bus is faster Inverness to Wick, but not Inverness to Thurso. The bus does not serve everywhere that the train does.

When you manage to be slower than the form of transport often regarded as the slow-moving bargain-basement form of long distance transport, you are seriously in trouble.
Rail's modern USP is that it is faster than coaches, and this patently isn't.

Coaches are not objectively slow. It can't be surprising that a detour of an hour inland (Tain to Golspie) by the railway as compared to the newer road route in addition to the 30 minutes detour via Thurso of Wick passengers leaves the coach with a significant advantage.

And if passenger operations were abandoned there would be plenty of money to subsidise additional buses.
The railway as it exists today is extermely inefficient and simply serves to squander public money - either abandon the passenger operations and possibly the freight ones or spend the money to actually make it useful as a method of transport.

This would significantly add to the congestion of the road. Which is not a good idea. New buses would have to be introduced to places that see their railway service cut which do not currently have bus services (see the entire section from Helsmdale to Halkirk). The road infrastructure does not exist in that area. So money would need to be spent on upgrading roads and building new ones. The small subsidy does not cover this.

As stated before, end-to-end journeys are not and should not be the only consideration. There is significant flow from Tain to Inverness, and patronage justifies an increase in a service from there. An annual patronage of over 30k per year with gaps in service of over 3 and a half hours is pants.

Finally, tourism is not a bad thing.

I've not been that far north for a while but they've definitely popped up further south on the line. In any case, a help point requires power and comms the same as a PIS.

Certainly no halts north of Golspie have PIS. Not sure about Culrain or Invershin though.


It would be interesting to see actually how much was spent maintaining the facilities at small halts such as these. Current posts are, at best, estimates.

 

[geoffk]

There are real things which can be done (increase speed limits, build new passing loops, possibly building the Dornoch rail link) that will make a much bigger impact that will be good for everyone. Such a marginal improvement at the cost of people's journeys (however few those journeys may be) is undesirable.

I've been reading this thread and was surprised it took so long to mention the Dornoch Rail Link. This would save serious time (45 minutes estimate) if the money could be found but you are then left with the loop through Lairg - what do you do with it? I've never travelled the Far North Line and, with no holiday plans this year yet, perhaps I should make the effort!

 

[Esker-pades]

I've been reading this thread and was surprised it took so long to mention the Dornoch Rail Link. This would save serious time (45 minutes estimate) if the money could be found but you are then left with the loop through Lairg - what do you do with it? I've never travelled the Far North Line and, with no holiday plans this year yet, perhaps I should make the effort!

I was referring to it, thanks for mentioning it by name .

The plans by the local passenger groups would be 1 train per hour to Tain, continuing either to Thurso/Wick via Dornoch or to Golspie (or another suitable turnback point) via the Lairg loop.