Northern Unit Refurbishments

[superkev]

I travelled on a refurbished unit last week. It was fine, if that. The two biggest problems - the hideous engine noise and the material they have used on the seat coverings.
On the engines I presume we are just ignoring that in the current programme and so passengers are stuck with something that must now be one of the worst passenger experiences in the EU in that regard until these units are sent for scrap? I travelled on a reasonably new local DMU in Denmark yesterday and the difference in experience is crazy - hopefully a good sign for the new stock. Can anything be done at a sensible cost to reduce the noise of existing engines?

All though Cummins engines are not the quietest the 158's are not too bad due to there carpets rather than vinyl.
No dmu is going to be as quiet as electric or hauled stock particularly with today's heavyweight trains and larger engines.
K

 

[Brian Aylott]

All though Cummins engines are not the quietest the 158's are not too bad due to there carpets rather than vinyl.
No dmu is going to be as quiet as electric or hauled stock particularly with today's heavyweight trains and larger engines.
K

I might have missed something but on which noisy unit was superkev on?
Some classes are louder than others (in fact some units are louder than others within the same class)
There are various factors to take into account including:-
The make of engine - they are not all Cummins
Air conditioned unit or not
Open or shut windows
Unit working hard or not
Brian

 

[507021]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but 156466 is also now refurbished

Thanks Chris, I'll add this to the next update.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But a train should be refurbished throughout its lifetime (with improvements people actually want).

By and large they are. Compare say an Inverness 158 with the original?

 

[yorksrob]

By and large they are. Compare say an Inverness 158 with the original?

Depends on the unit.

Plus it depends what improvements you're putting in.

 

[507021]

As usual, the latest updates are underlined.

Units in red are in the Northern Rail livery or their former operator's livery.
Units in blue are in the Northern or Northern base livery.
Units in bold are refurbished.
Units with a ^ are out of service for repaint/refurbishment/PRM mods.
Units with a * have received PRM modifications.
Units with a $ are currently stored/out of service.
Units in italics have not arrived yet.

Class 150s
150101^, 150102*, 150103, 150104, 150105, 150106, 150107, 150108, 150109, 150110, 150111, 150112*, 150113, 150114, 150115, 150116*, 150117, 150118, 150119, 150120, 150121, 150122, 150123^, 150124*, 150125, 150126*, 150127, 150128, 150129, 150130, 150131, 150132*^, 150133, 150134*, 150135, 150136*, 150137*, 150138*, 150139, 150140*, 150141*, 150142*, 150143, 150144*, 150145, 150146*^, 150147, 150148, 150149*, 150150.

150201, 150203*, 150204*, 150205*, 150206*, 150209, 150210, 150211*, 150214^, 150215, 150218, 150220*, 150222*, 150223*, 150224, 150225, 150226, 150228, 150268, 150269, 150270*, 150271, 150272^, 150273, 150274*, 150275*, 150276*, 150277.

Class 155s
155341*, 155342^, 155343, 155344, 155345*, 155346*, 155347*.

Class 156s
156420*, 156421, 156423^, 156424, 156425, 156426, 156427, 156428, 156429, 156438*, 156440, 156441, 156443*, 156444*, 156448*, 156451*, 156452*, 156454*, 156455, 156459, 156460, 156461, 156463*, 156464, 156466*, 156468*, 156469*, 156471*, 156472*, 156475*, 156479*, 156480*, 156481*, 156482*, 156483*, 156484*, 156486*, 156487*, 156488*, 156489*, 156490*, 156491*, 1564??, 1564??, 1564??, 1564??, 1564??.

Class 158s
158752*, 158753*, 158754*, 158755*, 158756*, 158757*, 158758*, 158759*.

158782*, 158784, 158786*, 158787, 158789*, 158790, 158791*, 158792, 158793, 158794, 158795*, 158796*, 158797*, 158815, 158816, 158817, 158842, 158843, 158844*, 158845*^, 158848*, 158849*, 158850*, 158851, 158853, 158855*, 158859*, 158860*, 158861, 158867*, 158868*, 158869*, 158870*, 158871*, 158872.

158901, 158902, 158903, 158904, 158905, 158906, 158907, 158908, 158909, 158910.

Note: 158906 is fitted with WiFi, charging points and a PIS in one carriage.

Class 170s (All are PRM compliant)
170453*, 170454*, 170455*, 170456*, 170457*, 170458*, 170459*$, 170460*$, 170461*$, 170472*^, 170473*^, 170474*$, 170475*, 170476*, 170477*, 170478*.

Class 319s (All are PRM compliant)
319361*, 319362*, 319363*, 319364*, 319365*, 319366*, 319367*, 319368*, 319369*, 319370*, 319371*, 319372*, 319374*, 319375*, 319376*, 319377*, 319378*, 319379*, 319380*, 319381*, 319382*, 319383*, 319384*, 319385*, 319386*.

319424*, 319426*^, 319431*^, 319434*^, 319442*, 319446*, 319448*, 319450*, 319456*^, 319458*.

Class 333s (All are PRM compliant)
333001*, 333002*, 333003*, 333004*, 333005*, 333006*, 333007*, 333008*, 333009*, 333010*, 333011*, 333012*, 333013*, 333014*, 333015*, 333016*.

Class 769s (Undergoing conversion)
769424*, 769426*, 769431*^, 769434*^, 769442*, 769446*, 769448*, 769450*, 769456*^, 769458*, 7694??.

 

[northernchris]

Thanks for the update @507021

 

[superkev]

Thanks for the update @507021

Here here most interesting. Looking at the list over I get around 90 units still to have prm mods.
K

 

[387star]

I travelled on a refurbished unit last week. It was fine, if that. The two biggest problems - the hideous engine noise and the material they have used on the seat coverings.

On the engines I presume we are just ignoring that in the current programme and so passengers are stuck with something that must now be one of the worst passenger experiences in the EU in that regard until these units are sent for scrap? I travelled on a reasonably new local DMU in Denmark yesterday and the difference in experience is crazy - hopefully a good sign for the new stock. Can anything be done at a sensible cost to reduce the noise of existing engines?

On the seat covers, so frustrating. They have pretty much nailed the style/pattern as far as I am concerned. However, the material is dreadful and the cleaning of it even worse. Most seats already had stains across them and the seats themselves were filthy in the crevices - clearly from lack of general cleaning rather than from the day itself.

I really feel people on here who care about the Northern experience should bombard TfN on this point. I doubt they will get it by themselves as they are too inexperienced at this point as a new body. Whatever various people have been promised by various other people is not the reality. Seats installed in the South Western stock are looking better than these new seat covers more than a decade after they were installed. Northern needs to discontinue use of this material immediately and switch to the far better product, the main manufacturer for which is in Huddersfield. It is bloody typical that London buses get the best Huddersfield can produce whilst the trains in Huddersfield are fobbed off with this second rate rubbish.

I think the 150s should have been ditched along with 155s leaving only the 156s and 158s behind

 

[BurtonM]

150s are too numerous for that to be feasible, sadly.

I'd say 150s are barely passable for the time being anyway, as long as they're run as part of a four car formation (at anything more than times of minmum loadings).

 

[modernrail]

Here are my photos of the 'new' seat covers on my recent Southport trip. Absolutely filthy and covered in stains. I will be emailing the DfT and TfN later today. If other see the same evidence this material is seriously not fit for purpoae - I suggest you do the same. What an incredible waste of money. .

 

[yorksrob]

Here are my photos of the 'new' seat covers on my recent Southport trip. Absolutely filthy and covered in stains. I will be emailing the DfT and TfN later today. If other see the same evidence this material is seriously not fit for purpoae - I suggest you do the same. What an incredible waste of money. View attachment 51426 View attachment 51427 View attachment 51425 .

Yet the refurbed 158's, which for reasons known only unto Northern Rail, have been deemed necessary to have their seats replaced altogether, have had their original seating retrimmed in traditional sturdy moquette. Perhaps they should be using this material in their 150's instead.

 

[modernrail]

That is interesting, is it the same pattern? I have also noticed some sort of interim plain material - again that seems like a giant waste of money. Why not wait until you have a final design and prove the product is good enough? I am trying not to type arse and elbow but it difficult. Meanwhile other TOC's have started and completed a much more comprehensive and well structured refresh, and let's face it this process is nothing other than a refresh when you look at what a full refurbishment means, a la TPE.

Is the problem here the myriad of contractual forms used for different classes from different ROSCO's and maintenance providers? Is northern not only suffering from its own in-house incompetence but also the fact that it has a long list of cast-offs with all the contractual complications as well as the lack of anything approaching a uniform fleet? If so, this point needs to be raised much more clearly. I suspect part of the reason Northern needs so much subsidy is because everything is non-standard.

 

[387star]

Here are my photos of the 'new' seat covers on my recent Southport trip. Absolutely filthy and covered in stains. I will be emailing the DfT and TfN later today. If other see the same evidence this material is seriously not fit for purpoae - I suggest you do the same. What an incredible waste of money. View attachment 51426 View attachment 51427 View attachment 51425 .

I thought the pattern was bright blue and yellow it's been changed again?

 

[M1544]

As usual, the latest updates are underlined.

Units in red are in the Northern Rail livery or their former operator's livery.
Units in blue are in the Northern or Northern base livery.
Units in bold are refurbished.
Units with a ^ are out of service for repaint/refurbishment/PRM mods.
Units with a * have received PRM modifications.
Units with a $ are currently stored/out of service.
Units in italics have not arrived yet.

Class 150s
150101^, 150102*, 150103, 150104, 150105, 150106, 150107, 150108, 150109, 150110, 150111, 150112*, 150113, 150114, 150115, 150116*, 150117, 150118, 150119, 150120, 150121, 150122, 150123^, 150124*, 150125, 150126*, 150127, 150128, 150129, 150130, 150131, 150132*^, 150133, 150134*, 150135, 150136*, 150137*, 150138*, 150139, 150140*, 150141*, 150142*, 150143, 150144*, 150145, 150146*^, 150147, 150148, 150149*, 150150.

150201, 150203*, 150204*, 150205*, 150206*, 150209, 150210, 150211*, 150214^, 150215, 150218, 150220*, 150222*, 150223*, 150224, 150225, 150226, 150228, 150268, 150269, 150270*, 150271, 150272^, 150273, 150274*, 150275*, 150276*, 150277.

Class 155s
155341*, 155342^, 155343, 155344, 155345*, 155346*, 155347*.

Class 156s
156420*, 156421, 156423^, 156424, 156425, 156426, 156427, 156428, 156429, 156438*, 156440, 156441, 156443*, 156444*, 156448*, 156451*, 156452*, 156454*, 156455, 156459, 156460, 156461, 156463*, 156464, 156466*, 156468*, 156469*, 156471*, 156472*, 156475*, 156479*, 156480*, 156481*, 156482*, 156483*, 156484*, 156486*, 156487*, 156488*, 156489*, 156490*, 156491*, 1564??, 1564??, 1564??, 1564??, 1564??.

Class 158s
158752*, 158753*, 158754*, 158755*, 158756*, 158757*, 158758*, 158759*.

158782*, 158784, 158786*, 158787, 158789*, 158790, 158791*, 158792, 158793, 158794, 158795^, 158796*, 158797*, 158815, 158816, 158817, 158842, 158843, 158844*, 158845*^, 158848*, 158849*, 158850*, 158851, 158853, 158855*, 158859*, 158860*, 158861, 158867*, 158868*, 158869*, 158870*, 158871*, 158872.

158901, 158902, 158903, 158904, 158905, 158906, 158907, 158908, 158909, 158910.

Note: 158906 is fitted with WiFi, charging points and a PIS in one carriage.

Class 170s (All are PRM compliant)
170453*, 170454*, 170455*, 170456*, 170457*, 170458*, 170459*$, 170460*$, 170461*$, 170472*^, 170473*^, 170474*$, 170475*, 170476*, 170477*, 170478*.

Class 319s (All are PRM compliant)
319361*, 319362*, 319363*, 319364*, 319365*, 319366*, 319367*, 319368*, 319369*, 319370*, 319371*, 319372*, 319374*, 319375*, 319376*, 319377*, 319378*, 319379*, 319380*, 319381*, 319382*, 319383*, 319384*, 319385*, 319386*.

319424*, 319426*^, 319431*^, 319434*^, 319442*, 319446*, 319448*, 319450*, 319456*^, 319458*.

Class 333s (All are PRM compliant)
333001*, 333002*, 333003*, 333004*, 333005*, 333006*, 333007*, 333008*, 333009*, 333010*, 333011*, 333012*, 333013*, 333014*, 333015*, 333016*.

Class 769s (Undergoing conversion)
769424*, 769426*, 769431*^, 769434*^, 769442*, 769446*, 769448*, 769450*, 769456*^, 769458*, 7694??.

155341 and 150274 need to be in bold on the list.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here are my photos of the 'new' seat covers on my recent Southport trip. Absolutely filthy and covered in stains. I will be emailing the DfT and TfN later today. If other see the same evidence this material is seriously not fit for purpoae - I suggest you do the same. What an incredible waste of money. View attachment 51426 View attachment 51427 View attachment 51425 .

That is disgusting, but it's clearly from passengers putting filthy shoes on seats - time for some Merseyrail style Byelaw enforcement and hauling people who do it through the Courts?

I thought you meant the way the plain grey of GWR 800s show things like small spillages of coffee or even water.

There also appears to be a load of dust and crumbs between the back and base - that shows a lack of adequate cleaning.

 

[Rail Blues]

Here are my photos of the 'new' seat covers on my recent Southport trip. Absolutely filthy and covered in stains. I will be emailing the DfT and TfN later today

That first stain looks well dodgy. Perhaps it is the work of a new and extremely niche type of train enthusiast who really, really likes travelling on a sprinter.

 

[bengley]

Unfortunately until people are forced to stop putting feet up on seats we are always going to have this problem. I'd rather see the dirt as on this seat material than have the truth hidden from me. The new 185 seats are also quickly starting to look horrendous, particularly on the seat bases.

 

[MatthewRead]

Unfortunately until people are forced to stop putting feet up on seats we are always going to have this problem. I'd rather see the dirt as on this seat material than have the truth hidden from me. The new 185 seats are also quickly starting to look horrendous, particularly on the seat bases.

You should look at Southern Electrostars and the ones on GWR they aren't even that old!

 

[390112A]

Please correct me if I am wrong but is 150207 missing off the list ?
(If there is a reason for this what is it ?)

 

[cactustwirly]

Please correct me if I am wrong but is 150207 missing off the list ?
(If there is a reason for this what is it ?)

150207 is no longer a Northern unit, now with GWR, it was swapped with 150209

 

[61653 HTAFC]

150207 is no longer a Northern unit, now with GWR, it was swapped with 150209

With regard to 209, the ultimate plan is to form a fleet of 3-car units. Has there been any news about the size of this fleet or which units/vehicles (besides the two orphaned cars) will be used?

 

[jonesy3001]

With regard to 209, the ultimate plan is to form a fleet of 3-car units. Has there been any news about the size of this fleet or which units/vehicles (besides the two orphaned cars) will be used?

Northern will probably wait till the bolton electrification is finished, that should free up some DMUs.

 

[Frothy]

With regard to 209, the ultimate plan is to form a fleet of 3-car units. Has there been any news about the size of this fleet or which units/vehicles (besides the two orphaned cars) will be used?

I have it written down on my aide-mémoire post-it that there should eventually be 18 150s in 3-car formation and 54 in 2-car formation. Although that information comes from the Franchise agreement so may now be out of date.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I have it written down on my aide-mémoire post-it that there should eventually be 18 150s in 3-car formation and 54 in 2-car formation. Although that information comes from the Franchise agreement so may now be out of date.

Thanks. From what I've heard, they'll be largely used on the sorts of services that currently get Pacers. Huddersfield to Sheffield is supposed to get 3-car 150s (requires 3 units for the current timetable) but platform 2 at Huddersfield needs extending first. That in turn requires P1 to be extended at the Leeds end to compensate.

 

[Andyh82]

Do any other TOCs use office chair fabric for their seats or is this some cost cutting only Northern have come up with?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Do any other TOCs use office chair fabric for their seats or is this some cost cutting only Northern have come up with?

The seat covers on the refurbished 185s for TPE (despite being a Huddersfield native I'm not a textile specialist and to be honest don't even know what distinguishes "moquette" from other sorts of material) don't seem to be holding up too well to the rigours of the Ale Trail too well... unless it's the "plebs" of Deighton, Batley and Slaithwaite/Marsden that are unable to keep hold of their overpriced Pumpkin cappuccinos!

 

[jhy44]

Delighted to have got my first ever non-Pacer from Sheffield to Swinton this morning, almost fell over when I saw it.

Couldn't tell you what it was (maybe a 153?), was in northern livery, coupled with one in GWR livery.

Great surprise anyway!

 

[td97]

Can't remember the unit number, but here's a few shots of how the posh 'new' seats are holding up on Northern's finest 150s

 

[LOL The Irony]

Here are my photos of the 'new' seat covers on my recent Southport trip. Absolutely filthy and covered in stains. I will be emailing the DfT and TfN later today. If other see the same evidence this material is seriously not fit for purpoae - I suggest you do the same. What an incredible waste of money. View attachment 51426 View attachment 51427 View attachment 51425 .

They look about 10 years old in some of those shots.

Can't remember the unit number, but here's a few shots of how the posh 'new' seats are holding up on Northern's finest 150s
View attachment 51467 View attachment 51468 View attachment 51469

This is a pandemic. Northern & Camira need to do something about this.