Arriva Rail North DOO

[Moonshot]

RMT have now announced Saturday strikes in October. The guards must have lots of disposable income to be able to take so many days off work unpaid in such a short period.

In effect, we are now on a 3 day week till further notice. Or a 25% reduction in salary. Pay rise is on hold until dispute is sorted.

 

[js1000]

RMT have now announced Saturday strikes in October. The guards must have lots of disposable income to be able to take so many days off work unpaid in such a short period.

Good to have more Saturdays off with the family!

 

[Moonshot]

Good to have more Saturdays off with the family!

And the footy .

 

[footprints]

How long do the RMT keep this up while achieving nothing? Let's fast forward a year with zero to show for another 52 Saturdays of strike action. What happens then? Carry on regardless?

 

[Eccles1983]

In effect, we are now on a 3 day week till further notice. Or a 25% reduction in salary. Pay rise is on hold until dispute is sorted.

Again absolute wibble.

The pay rise is not on hold at all. Another one of your lies passed off as gen.

The collective bargaining agreement means that if it was on hold then tssa and ASLEF have valid grounds to escalate the issue to industrial action. Which the company will seek to avoid considering the agreement for training that has just been met.

You really do need to turn in this continuous misleading. There's enough on here to call out your falsehoods.

 

[Robertj21a]

How long do the RMT keep this up while achieving nothing? Let's fast forward a year with zero to show for another 52 Saturdays of strike action. What happens then? Carry on regardless?

Well, it's been the RMT approach to date and they're too stuck in the dark ages to see that they now need to rethink how they proceed.

 

[Moonshot]

Well, it's been the RMT approach to date and they're too stuck in the dark ages to see that they now need to rethink how they proceed.

How would you have the RMT proceed if you were in charge?

 

[Smidster]

How would you have the RMT proceed if you were in charge?

That is a question for someone with a Union background but surely it is clear to everyone involved that striking isn't doing an awful lot of good - we have been playing this game for 18 months now and the only thing that has happened is that passengers have been put off using the railway (and you will have to work incredibly hard to get them back) and guards have lost thousands of pounds each. Northern do not seem to have, and likely do not have the ability to, change their position and frankly if they haven't done after 45 days of action then is the 46th going to be the one that makes them capitulate?

I just don't see a plan being thought through by the RMT here - the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and hoping for a different outcome. . What next - do you strike on Saturday and Mondays? How about indefinitely? Do you think that would produce a different outcome?

We have reached a stage where this must end - the parties need to be locked in a room and not let out until there is an agreement. I pity the poor people at ACAS - they must need counselling after having to deal with these numpties (and that applies to DaFT and Northern as well)

 

[Andyh82]

It also doesn’t help the RMT that the Northern strikes are under the radar, it gets a brief mention of the news and that is it.

Imagine if a London operator had 10 weeks of no Saturday service.

 

[pemma]

It also doesn’t help the RMT that the Northern strikes are under the radar, it gets a brief mention of the news and that is it.

Imagine if a London operator had 10 weeks of no Saturday service.

The strikes barely get a mention because the RMT Southern dispute went on for years. Reporting rail strikes is now as fashionable as reporting Tory austerity, people are bored of hearing it even if they don't like it.

 

[pemma]

That is a question for someone with a Union background but surely it is clear to everyone involved that striking isn't doing an awful lot of good - we have been playing this game for 18 months now and the only thing that has happened is that passengers have been put off using the railway (and you will have to work incredibly hard to get them back) and guards have lost thousands of pounds each. Northern do not seem to have, and likely do not have the ability to, change their position and frankly if they haven't done after 45 days of action then is the 46th going to be the one that makes them capitulate?

I just don't see a plan being thought through by the RMT here - the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and hoping for a different outcome. . What next - do you strike on Saturday and Mondays? How about indefinitely? Do you think that would produce a different outcome?

We have reached a stage where this must end - the parties need to be locked in a room and not let out until there is an agreement. I pity the poor people at ACAS - they must need counselling after having to deal with these numpties (and that applies to DaFT and Northern as well)

Anyone who is put in a room with the RMT's rent a thug John Tilley will need counselling. At least Darren Ireland seems like a reasonable person, Tilley is just a liar who looks like he wants to hospitalise anyone who disagrees with him. Remember according to Tilley the Merseyrail dispute was about the Dutch government wanting to trial DOO in Liverpool in case it went wrong.

 

[DaveB10780]

I think there is virtually no public support for action in this way to continue.

 

[387star]

I’d be surprised if almost any of striking guards themselves genuinely believed a deal was actually possible during the recent talks considering they’d withdrawn the offer of driver door control and were now demanding full control of door closure

Why did they withdraw it if accept it on Mersey and anglia

 

[387star]

Why aren't guards first aid trained

 

[Carlisle]

- the parties need to be locked in a room and not let out until there is an agreement. )

I still doubt even that would deliver a breakthrough right now.
northern have contracts to fulfill but the RMT dont believe the TOC would go as far as dismissals however do believe ASLEF would likley get involved if things were pushed.too far.

 

[Iskra]

I think there is virtually no public support for action in this way to continue.

Agreed.

Aggravating your customers is a poor way to improve your job security.

 

[DaveB10780]

Agreed.

Aggravating your customers is a poor way to improve your job security.

I am afraid the strike leaders are more interested in political point scoring than the interests of their members and the public.

 

[Carlisle]

Why did they withdraw it if accept it on Mersey and anglia

I’m not sure, possibly northern’s recent timetabling and reliability debacle plus a much better and quicker than anticipated deal on nearby Merseyrail has given the union renewed confidence to try and raise their demands in the northern dispute.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I am afraid the strike leaders are more interested in political point scoring than the interests of their members and the public.

I'm admitting to passing comment upon leaving a train at Piccadilly to a guard. It was something anti union like stop striking or something.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why aren't guards first aid trained

I personally find this scandalous, however it isn't really relevant to this dispute.

 

[LOL The Irony]

By this point I feel like a guard is going to get assaulted by an irate passenger tired of Northern's problems or who lost their job. Something is going to boil over soon. I feel sorry for those who want this to end so they can start earning money again. And if things do boil over, it'll sadly be one of them assaulted. Twisted situation that needs to be fixed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would you have the RMT proceed if you were in charge?

Personally, I wouldn't try to fight the changes, I would try to ensure that current members have their jobs until they no longer need them (i.e. they retire or decide voluntarily to move to another role e.g. driver). I don't believe job creation to be a Union's role, and there are enough Guard roles at Northern for everyone to stay in one as long as they require it - just stop recruiting.

I would also accept OBS as a role, because I think excluding those people wishing to join the Union to be childish.

 

[PR1Berske]

Good to have more Saturdays off with the family!

While ordinary people who are "the family" struggle to use the trains at all!

 

[Robertj21a]

How would you have the RMT proceed if you were in charge?

I would have the guts to go back to my members and explain some hard facts - the strikes aren't effective - the government and TOC aren't going to budge - members are losing a lot of money - the Southern OBS system is not ideal, but seems a reasonable compromise.

It appears that the RMT still likes to have an old-fashioned 'Bully Boy' Trade Union Leader, whereas the population at large moved on after the Miners vs Thatcher. It takes a big man to recognise that his aims are unattainable - so does he have the guts to recommend OBS to his members ?

 

[Kite159]

I bet someone in metrolink/Supertram is happy with the potential extra income coming their way with those passengers who would normally use the train deciding to drive to a park & ride site served by the trams.

This is when northern should block any striking guards ability to recover some money by blocking them taking on overtime.

 

[northernchris]

This is when northern should block any striking guards ability to recover some money by blocking them taking on overtime.

I suspect that would increase the cancellation levels. Although if a work to rule was imposed instead of striking this could lead to wider disruption than the now standard Saturday strikes as it would affect the service just about every day

 

[Killingworth]

The strikes are now approaching a critical point and much depends on possibly minor interventions at local levels. But all should remember that neither side is coming out with credit in the eyes of passengers.

This is the time when any union has to convince it's members they can still win. It's also the time when the employer should be making some public concessions. What is a win? Driving passenger numbers down by 10, 20, or even 30% surely isn't winning.

Employee moral will be wavering, but not universally. In some places it will be hardened. It's stressful for many, but gradually a few more will find reasons to break the strikes. I've lived this. We won, but if the employer had held on for just a few more weeks many of even the most militant were ready to quit.

What should the union do now? Work to rule, ban on overtime? That would really mess the railway up.

Make some public concessions asap. Get in first. Offer line by line reviews and get some lines operating normally where there's no real dispute. Get the public back on side. Get drivers opening doors wherever possible. That's what hacks passengers off most, waiting for the doors to be released whether they're wanting to get out or get in.

 

[CN75]

How would you have the RMT proceed if you were in charge?

Well, what is this all about? It isn’t really about guards suddenly caring about safety or disabled customers, it’s about:
- job security
- RMT union power
- not being easily replaced
- and fear of the unknown

Many guards of course do care and are professional, but many care about the above and they and the RMT are deeply affronted that after years of being treated with kid gloves by the private railway, the companies are now daring to finish off what BR started.

So, as a purely hypothetical alternative - first, call off the strikes for the time being. It’s going to become unsustainable for some guards and people will cross the picket lines, and then the guards and union members will just turn on one another and start infighting. As soon as the strike breaks up, it’s game over - so why push it to that level of pressure when there is no movement from anyone else in sight?

Next, ask Arriva how much DOO they really require. Accept that figure and start to think of a plan B. Ask them what they will legally commit to introducing and no more. Tempt the DfT to make a deal which will help get the strikes off the agenda.

Third, ask Arriva how many station staff jobs there are to come out of the switch to DOO and where they are to be located. Clarify what those imagined jobs involve.

Then, plan how to share the station duties out with the guards jobs within a shared roster, so that every guard keeps guards competence and the switch to working on stations is shared. The job becomes multi-functional. Highly paid jobs for all - and if a guard can’t manage guards duties any more, a job on the station to fall back onto on the same money. Arriva get their DOO.

Arriva might feel they had to accept this outcome but the real winner would be the RMT. No guard would get ‘downgraded’, the whole grade would still have the industrial weight to secure pay rises, no guard would lose salary, the training required would stay the same length, and it wouldn’t be easy to replace guards short notice. A strike would still mean no trains could run without the contingency arrangements that happens now.

The RMT is shouting at the incoming tide to go back out again. In a few years, signals will all be in cabs rather than at the end of platforms and the guard will be a job that exists on steam railways. It’s the worst aspect of the RMT that they lack the vision to compete in and not fight progress.

It also doesn’t help the RMT that the Northern strikes are under the radar, it gets a brief mention of the news and that is it.

Imagine if a London operator had 10 weeks of no Saturday service.

SWR is a London operator?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wasn't over DOO, but there were weeks on end of random days of Silverlink strikes in their latter period. They had pretty much decided to sit it out until the end of the franchise.

 

[muz379]

??? Why ??. They have stated a requirement and the management have a contract to deliver - that's what management does. Just because a Trade Union doesn't like the idea doesn't change the requirement.

That might hold some weight if all other elements of "the contract" have been , are or will be delivered . But when you see the TOC going back to the DFT to rengotiate other terms you have to ask yourself why for their financial interests but not inanybody else's interest

In effect, we are now on a 3 day week till further notice. Or a 25% reduction in salary. Pay rise is on hold until dispute is sorted.

Again repeating the same old rubbish . Pay rise is not on hold . As I have explained to you multiple times the pay discussions are a collective bargaining issue . That is any pay rise is agreed for all non management grades by process of collective bargaining with all 4 recognised unions for non management grades party to those negotiations .

If you really think that ASLEF , UNITE or TSSA would accept that they wont be getting any pay rise until the RMT dispute is resolved then think again .

Maybe in the future pay discussions will not be by way of collective bargaining process like this , mainly because ASLEF has always wanted to discuss pay on its own . But for this pay claim submission it is a collective bargaining issue and discussions are ongoing with all unions .

We have reached a stage where this must end - the parties need to be locked in a room and not let out until there is an agreement. I pity the poor people at ACAS - they must need counselling after having to deal with these numpties (and that applies to DaFT and Northern as well)

IMO this is actually part of the problem . The DFT are not being party to any of the negotiations and are basically washing their hands of the issue

Anyone who is put in a room with the RMT's rent a thug John Tilley will need counselling. At least Darren Ireland seems like a reasonable person, Tilley is just a liar who looks like he wants to hospitalise anyone who disagrees with him. Remember according to Tilley the Merseyrail dispute was about the Dutch government wanting to trial DOO in Liverpool in case it went wrong.

Wholly irrelevant , neither of them are the FTO for Northern so wont be party to any negotiations

This is when northern should block any striking guards ability to recover some money by blocking them taking on overtime.

That can backfire though and make the TOC look bad on a day to day basis .