ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Goldromans]

Can't help thinking that spending a little more on electronic PIS displays would have been a good idea - paper labels kinda spoil 'the look' a bit! Never mind, a minor gripe!

Untrue, they’ve fitted electronic destination displays inside and have removed the compartment where the paper would go on the outside, where the Inter7City logos and coach letter are now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly, the legroom is fine, even on the 'high density' ex GWR unrefurbished stock (still more room than a refurbished 158) - I've tried it out on the training train (I'm relatively tall too).

Agreed. I think the OP may be looking at seats vs. windows without considering that the Class 158 has one more bodyside window per side than a Mk3.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Untrue, they’ve fitted electronic destination displays inside and have removed the compartment where the paper would go on the outside, where the Inter7City logos and coach letter are now.

Most TOCs don't/didn't use the compartments in the bog window - only whatever-East-Coast-is-called-now seems to do that, other TOCs use disposable sticky window labels on the first window of the coach.

 

[fgwrich]

Most TOCs don't/didn't use the compartments in the bog window - only whatever-East-Coast-is-called-now seems to do that, other TOCs use disposable sticky window labels on the first window of the coach.

That’s a minor gripe I’ve had with HST refurbishments since the FGW Demonstrator vehicles were shown off to the public in 2006. FGW did originally propose to fit electronic PIS screens in the black space at the end of each vehicle, and there was talk about fitting a VT style version in the lower toilet window as well. With the loss of the small toilet window now due to the door pockets, I can understand not fitting them - the only solution now would either be a Mk5 style effort on the side, or an electronic version in the window.

Without trying to drift the thread off topic, I’m glad no-one else has used the Hitachi efforts as seen on the 800s - the screen appears to be too small for the apature and only reccently have they managed to make them work better.

But I believe ScotRail is to continue with the tried and tested (and probably more reliable!) paper version - I’m sure I saw a photo of them in the window of a Mk3 recently.

 

[Stoney1979]

Great news about the 15/10 start for the new set.

Is anyone here who is "in the know" any clearer about if/when/where any un-refurbished sets will come into service?

 

[EIKN]

Not knowing much about the subject, but could these be used on the Glasgow - Oban , fortwilliam and Mallaig routes.
A 156 pacer must be torture .
Surley even a cascaded refurbished lengthened 158 would be better.
They are quite comfortable trains .
Also is there any scope for loco hauled down the Borders route , given recent traffic figures .
Surley passenger numbers on there would warrant a better solution than a class 170 ?..

 

[mde]

A 156 pacer must be torture .

Just to clarify, they are 'Super Sprinter' units, a 'Pacer' is a class 140-144 railbus.

Also is there any scope for loco hauled down the Borders route , given recent traffic figures .
Surley passenger numbers on there would warrant a better solution than a class 170 ?..

A 170 would be better than the existing LHCS service that ScotRail runs (e.g. the Fife Circle mk2s which are paired with a Class 68) as the LHCS stock is very dated, and, is completely inaccessible.

If you mean putting a HST on that route it would seem a bit crazy - have passenger numbers really exceeded the number of seats available on a 3 car Class 170 (circa 190 seats?) on a consistent enough basis to merit a HST (circa 238 seats in 4 coach variant)?

 

[Rail Blues]

Can't help thinking that spending a little more on electronic PIS displays would have been a good idea - paper labels kinda spoil 'the look' a bit! Never mind, a minor gripe!

That's the last thing they need, another layer of complexity and more work to delay their introduction even further.

 

[sprinterguy]

Not knowing much about the subject, but could these be used on the Glasgow - Oban , fortwilliam and Mallaig routes.
A 156 pacer must be torture .

Not really; the West Highland and Far North lines are part of Scotrail's Scenic Trains initiative, which is utilising refurbished class 158 units. Though the introduction of 158s to the West Highland line seems a bit up in the air at the moment. You can't split or join HSTs at Crianlarich as has been done with class 156s on the West Highland line for the best part of thirty years, and short HST formations would be very costly in fuel usage and track access charges on these heavily subsidised rural routes compared to pairs of class 156s.

The HSTs are Abellio's answer to the Inter-city trains initiative between Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness, those are the routes they have been leased for and will operate until the end of the franchise (and beyond).

Also as has been noted, class 156s are Super Sprinter units, a world away from Pacer trains: If you think 156s are bad, dare I suggest that you've never encountered a Pacer.

Also is there any scope for loco hauled down the Borders route , given recent traffic figures .
Surley passenger numbers on there would warrant a better solution than a class 170 ?..

The Borders line typically uses 2-car class 158s. Except on those occasional services where a pair of them are used, a 170 would be a significant improvement in capacity.

 

[Mingulay]

Not knowing much about the subject, but could these be used on the Glasgow - Oban , fortwilliam and Mallaig routes.
A 156 pacer must be torture .
Surley even a cascaded refurbished lengthened 158 would be better.
They are quite comfortable trains .
Also is there any scope for loco hauled down the Borders route , given recent traffic figures .
Surley passenger numbers on there would warrant a better solution than a class 170 ?..

In defence of the 156. Refurbished it’s not bad at all and legroom and space is good. Trust me. Far better than a refurbished 158 which looks ok but if you have tried sitting 1 hour at a table with4 adults kness interlocked and wrapped round a table leg is a deeply uncomfortable experience . It would be insufferable on a long run to Oban. They really did not improve the 158 post refurb beyond initial impression. Legroom is non existent. In a set of 4 158s one set old one set refurbished. I sit in the old set despite looking shabby and knackered. Legroom is better. Oban would be good with the 170 with the buffet bar in the middle carriage. But the splitting of the train precludes that I guess. Unless they use a 170 158 combo ?

 

[northernbelle]

That’s a minor gripe I’ve had with HST refurbishments since the FGW Demonstrator vehicles were shown off to the public in 2006. FGW did originally propose to fit electronic PIS screens in the black space at the end of each vehicle, and there was talk about fitting a VT style version in the lower toilet window as well. With the loss of the small toilet window now due to the door pockets, I can understand not fitting them - the only solution now would either be a Mk5 style effort on the side, or an electronic version in the window.

Without trying to drift the thread off topic, I’m glad no-one else has used the Hitachi efforts as seen on the 800s - the screen appears to be too small for the apature and only reccently have they managed to make them work better.

But I believe ScotRail is to continue with the tried and tested (and probably more reliable!) paper version - I’m sure I saw a photo of them in the window of a Mk3 recently.

The Scotrail sets, like the GWR sets, are having internal PIS fitted to meet the PRM compliance law. This doesn't require the use of externally facing screens though.

 

[jingsmonty]

Not knowing much about the subject, but could these be used on the Glasgow - Oban , fortwilliam and Mallaig routes.
A 156 pacer must be torture .
Surley even a cascaded refurbished lengthened 158 would be better.
They are quite comfortable trains .
Also is there any scope for loco hauled down the Borders route , given recent traffic figures .
Surley passenger numbers on there would warrant a better solution than a class 170 ?..

I thought this too - even the odd special, missing out the request stops? After all, as per the Rule Book, HST can use the 'MU' speed boards (whether NR would allow this is another matter though).

From my neck of the woods, a summer only HST special to Kyle of Lochalsh would make a lot of sense - like the WHL, the Kyle line sees a lot of tourists/coach party block bookings. I'm sure a special with a hot buffet would be very popular with the tourists!

As for the WHL, I believe there were plans to use 158s, which were shelved for some reason (sure someone on here will know why - I believe it may have been to do with clearance for the outward opening plug doors?). We use 158s on tbe Far North & Kyle lines quite happily.

Also, 156s aren't "pacers", they are "super sprinters" - a pacer would have no wheels left after a trip on the WHL personally, I don't mind 156s, compared to 158s.

 

[jingsmonty]

The Scotrail sets, like the GWR sets, are having internal PIS fitted to meet the PRM compliance law. This doesn't require the use of externally facing screens though.

External screens would have looked much better than paper labels - more environmemtally friendly too. Not a big deal though....

 

[najaB]

External screens would have looked much better than paper labels - more environmemtally friendly too. Not a big deal though....

If the stopping patterns are regular then there's nothing stopping reuse of the labels.

 

[jingsmonty]

If the stopping patterns are regular then there's nothing stopping reuse of the labels.

Very good point, but someone will still have to take the time to check them. The HML stopping pattern is very variable just now as well, the scope for reusing labels isn't great. Agree that they should be reused whenever possible.

 

[380101]

In defence of the 156. Refurbished it’s not bad at all and legroom and space is good. Trust me. Far better than a refurbished 158 which looks ok but if you have tried sitting 1 hour at a table with4 adults kness interlocked and wrapped round a table leg is a deeply uncomfortable experience . It would be insufferable on a long run to Oban. They really did not improve the 158 post refurb beyond initial impression. Legroom is non existent. In a set of 4 158s one set old one set refurbished. I sit in the old set despite looking shabby and knackered. Legroom is better. Oban would be good with the 170 with the buffet bar in the middle carriage. But the splitting of the train precludes that I guess. Unless they use a 170 158 combo ?

The 170 isn't cleared for the WHL due to bogie wheelbase length apparently. There's still a proposal being explored of inserting a 153 unit in the middle of 5 of the WHL 156 units to make 3 cars to allow extra carrying capacity for bikes, sporting gear etc. so scope for a mini buffet possibly.

 

[gingertom]

Very good point, but someone will still have to take the time to check them. The HML stopping pattern is very variable just now as well, the scope for reusing labels isn't great. Agree that they should be reused whenever possible.

I recall a few years back paper labels were reintroduced on the HML. These advertised a stop at Kincraig, which closed in 1965. So someone had found a batch of labels in a store cupboard somewhere.

 

[Northhighland]

In defence of the 156. Refurbished it’s not bad at all and legroom and space is good. Trust me. Far better than a refurbished 158 which looks ok but if you have tried sitting 1 hour at a table with4 adults kness interlocked and wrapped round a table leg is a deeply uncomfortable experience . It would be insufferable on a long run to Oban. They really did not improve the 158 post refurb beyond initial impression. Legroom is non existent. In a set of 4 158s one set old one set refurbished. I sit in the old set despite looking shabby and knackered. Legroom is better. Oban would be good with the 170 with the buffet bar in the middle carriage. But the splitting of the train precludes that I guess. Unless they use a 170 158 combo ?

Travelled from Wick to Inverness last week on a 158, am 6'3" and in party of 4 never found leg room to be an issue. That is nearly 4.5 hours. Much longer than a trip to Oban. Would not call it deeply uncomfortable by any stretch. refurbed 158 with seats that line up with windows are decent trains.

 

[jingsmonty]

The 170 isn't cleared for the WHL due to bogie wheelbase length apparently. There's still a proposal being explored of inserting a 153 unit in the middle of 5 of the WHL 156 units to make 3 cars to allow extra carrying capacity for bikes, sporting gear etc. so scope for a mini buffet possibly.

That sounds right - same issue bans 170s North of Inverness. I think 170s were planned for the RETB lines when they were first built, as the original 'series 1' 170s have a slot for fitting the original RETB (portable) unit - the slot is perfect for a cup of coffee now....

Think I saw Scotrail announce the 153 'luggage unit' on twitter, so looks like this is probably going to happen.

Still think there may be scope at some point for HST 'summer specials'....Not sure about the Kyle/Far North lines, but HSTs are definetly cleared for Oban (not 100% sure about Fort William/Mallaig), as the Network Rail New Measurment Train (or the 'flying banana', if you prefer...) has been on the WHL. A potential issue would be crew training, as on the WHL, it would only be Queen St crews that were trained & I'm not sure how much of the WHL they sign (Oban & Ranoch, I think) - no such issues for the Kyle line, as Inverness crews could work this.

 

[jingsmonty]

Travelled from Wick to Inverness last week on a 158, am 6'3" and in party of 4 never found leg room to be an issue. That is nearly 4.5 hours. Much longer than a trip to Oban. Would not call it deeply uncomfortable by any stretch. refurbed 158 with seats that line up with windows are decent trains.

It's more the pitch of the seats in the 158 that's a problem, rather than the actual legroom - I'm a similar height to you & I detest sitting at a table, trying to avoid kicking whoever is sitting opposite. I'd agree that the legroom isn't horrendous, though - it's better than the unrefurbished haymarket 158s - I can barely fit into an airline seat on them! I'll be interested to see what the legroom is like on the refurbished Mk3s - I am pretty optimistic, as, like you say, the refurbished 158s, whilst not generous, are acceptable enough.

 

[mcmad]

Travelled from Wick to Inverness last week on a 158, am 6'3" and in party of 4 never found leg room to be an issue. That is nearly 4.5 hours. Much longer than a trip to Oban. Would not call it deeply uncomfortable by any stretch. refurbed 158 with seats that line up with windows are decent trains.

There seems to be at least 2 different specs of refurbed 158's out there. Some have the badly positioned table support and not sufficient room to avoid playing footsie with whoever is sat opposite and other are ok.

 

[theblackwatch]

There appears to be another 'slam door' set on its way from Ely to Scotland today, this being the second this week.

 

[Highlandspring]

That sounds right - same issue bans 170s North of Inverness. I think 170s were planned for the RETB lines when they were first built, as the original 'series 1' 170s have a slot for fitting the original RETB (portable) unit - the slot is perfect for a cup of coffee now...

The space in the side wall of the original batch cabs (units 401 - 424) would have housed a standard CDU rather than a suitcase sized car battery powered TTU; there’s the appropriate wiring harness in there for power supply and to connect to the former NRN radio equipment but with the upgrade to Next Gen any future fitment of a new CDR would require modifications to the unit. Adtranz offered this as an option because the batch of 12 170/2s they built for Anglia required it for use over the Saxmundham RETB area (I’ve seen a photo of one fitted with a CDR) and I believe the 170/5 and 170/6 subclasses for Central Trains were RETB capable as well. By the time the later batches of ScotRail 170s were built Adtranz had upgraded the class with Mitrac and the space was lost to the interface screen.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see HSTs run north of Inverness at some point. I did hear mention a while ago that there may be a trip to Wick/Thurso in the offing as part of the launch but I don’t have any further info or confirmation of that.

 

[fgwrich]

There seems to be at least 2 different specs of refurbed 158's out there. Some have the badly positioned table support and not sufficient room to avoid playing footsie with whoever is sat opposite and other are ok.

The problem with the 158 fleet is this. The “Inverness” 158s - 701 to 725 are rather good inside and in my opinion sets the bar that all 158 refurbishments should be set at - Grammer seats, good luggage space, seats that line up with the windows. The other units in the fleet, the former “Haymarket” 158s - 726-741 are the awful sets even after their disappointing refurbishment. These are the ones with the chunkier Richmond seats that, since their refurbishment have been moved far too closely together and are now very cramped.

I believe there is a thread on the subject somewhere on here though.

Had a browse through Twitter last night and the reactions to yesterday’s launch are very positive. The interiors do look great and will certainly be a step up from a Turbostar.

(Pictures not mine)

 

[Temple Meads]

. It'll be interesting to see if this minor first hiccup breeds the same instant intolerance by enthusiasts seen on GWR IET launch day last October.

It definitely won't.

 

[jingsmonty]

There seems to be at least 2 different specs of refurbed 158's out there. Some have the badly positioned table support and not sufficient room to avoid playing footsie with whoever is sat opposite and other are ok.

Think the refurbished Haymarket sets have kept the seats they previously had, just reconfigured to the same layout as the Inverness allocated sets. I'll be interested to see what the grammer seats on the refurbished HST set is like - I believe they are being recushioned as part of the refurb?

 

[SC43090]

There appears to be another 'slam door' set on its way from Ely to Scotland today, this being the second this week.

0952 Ely MLF Papworth Sidings to Perth

Understand its 43175 43124 with 4 coaches..... If anybody observes the formation can they please post formation.....

Also understand that there is a power car movement from Loughborough to Ely Papworth sidings 43141 43026

Thanks in advance

SC43090

 

[theblackwatch]

0952 Ely MLF Papworth Sidings to Perth

Understand its 43175 43124 with 4 coaches..... If anybody observes the formation can they please post formation.....

Coaches are 41124 42256/572 and 44029.

 

[59CosG95]

Also understand that there is a power car movement from Loughborough to Ely Papworth sidings 43141 43026

Thanks in advance

SC43090

That did indeed run; as 0L46.
There is a return working (light engines) booked to leave Ely Papworth at 1728, activated at 1628; it may be a non-runner.

 

[CC 72100]

Coaches are 41124 42256/572 and 44029.

TF/TS/TS/TGS - Hmm, already marshalled for how I'd guess they'd use a slam door set in service

43175 and 43124 only went off lease from GWR at the end of last month, potential quick turn around unless they'll be used for the transport and then disappear for a little while.