Northern strike action suspended

[HLE]

I can see another fight happening at the start of the next franchise. The guards role isn't what it used to be and with this statement may see door operation passed over to the driver completely.

@Bletchleyite hit the nail on the head. The guards who sit around in the back cab need managing better to do their revenue checks.

 

[387star]

Still Waiting to hear the details of the Mersey agreement for which their strike ended

Although they did say it might take months

 

[PR1Berske]

I can see another fight happening at the start of the next franchise. The guards role isn't what it used to be and with this statement may see door operation passed over to the driver completely.

@Bletchleyite hit the nail on the head. The guards who sit around in the back cab need managing better to do their revenue checks.

Think you're absolutely right here. There are many lessons to be learned, from both sides, and on the side of the RMT I hope those guards who do hide in the cab are politely told, "You won the fight once, you might not win it again."

 

[craigybagel]

I can see another fight happening at the start of the next franchise. The guards role isn't what it used to be and with this statement may see door operation passed over to the driver completely.

@Bletchleyite hit the nail on the head. The guards who sit around in the back cab need managing better to do their revenue checks.

Think you're absolutely right here. There are many lessons to be learned, from both sides, and on the side of the RMT I hope those guards who do hide in the cab are politely told, "You won the fight once, you might not win it again."

To be fair, most guards at Northern are pretty good about not hiding in the back - and in my experience they're certainly a lot better then the TOC Bletchleyite is likely to have more experience with. At my own TOC conductors can and have been disciplined (including dismissal) for persistent failures to perform revenue duties, and I'd be surprised if Northern don't come up with something similar if they haven't already. There are bad eggs at every TOC but most at Northern already do a good job, despite the obstacles thrown at them by their own management (even before this recent issue which won't have helped morale very much, Northern had much more strict rules on dispatch then any other TOC, which coupled with their unwillingess to invest in fitting extra door control panels made it even more difficult to perform revenue duties). I'm sure if an agreement can be reached, and the signs are looking good, the guards at Northern will be even more visible in the future

 

[ainsworth74]

I think there is, yet again, an East v West split here. I cannot recall the last time at any time of day or night that I haven't had my ticket checked by a conductor on a Northern service in the North East or at the very least an announcement to the effect of "I'm sorry I can't sell tickets but my machine is broken". It's been a while since I've been a regular user of Northern services in and around Yorkshire but there as well ticket checks were common any time of day or night.

 

[Intermodal]

I think there is, yet again, an East v West split here. I cannot recall the last time at any time of day or night that I haven't had my ticket checked by a conductor on a Northern service in the North East or at the very least an announcement to the effect of "I'm sorry I can't sell tickets but my machine is broken". It's been a while since I've been a regular user of Northern services in and around Yorkshire but there as well ticket checks were common any time of day or night.

The North East region of Northern is basically a separate company. They don't interact with the other regions at all due to the York Darlington split - different management, different trainers, different traction, different routes, etc, etc. I have always seen guards in the North East region doing revenue at all times (with a few exceptions).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does this mean now, that those newly installed boxes on platform walls, are now a waste of money. These are the dispatch boxes that have new train ready, close door and right away buttons in, such as installed last april at BTM.

The "CD" might be, but you can use the rest to dispatch a guarded train and this is done at other points on the network already, e.g. Euston. In what is a charmingly archaic method of working, the guard produces a green flag to the platform staff who then indicate the RA.

I must admit to not entirely understanding what the benefit of this is over two on the buzzer, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think your right, the insistence on guards closing all doors as part of any settlement was quietly dropped by the RMT once it became clear ASLEF were at least willing to negotiate on it rather than just refuse and enter an immediate dispute

I think one of the aspects of the "doors" thing is that if trains are built to have the guard control the doors (i.e. there are only panels in the saloon or away from the desk, say) then that means there is a capital cost to switching to DOO that acts as a dissuader. Whereas if the driver does open and close from his desk, changing to DOO (or something like OBS working) doesn't have that kind of obstacle, only a "political" one based on who is responsible to what - and if, as with Southern, the drivers agree, the guards find themselves up the proverbial creek.

That said, that barrier is only small, after all the built-for-DOO Class 319s have been modified for guard operation for their new lives after Thameslink despite having I think been DOO from day one.

I also think there's a job satisfaction aspect relating to feeling in control - the train doesn't go until you've had those two on the buzzer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Still Waiting to hear the details of the Mersey agreement for which their strike ended

Although they did say it might take months

"Bloke sitting around reading the Mirror[1] just in case the train crashes" was roughly that one, wasn't it? Though being more serious, I suspect some kind of revenue role will feature.

Obviously that's more than a little different from Northern where guards have more of a revenue role (though with PFs reducing a bit) and an accessibility one which won't be there for Merseyrail due to the level boarding and bridged gap planned throughout. That's why I always supported DOO for Merseyrail but not for Northern, and think it's very positive that what has happened has not been the "nuclear option" from either side as I feared it would have to be.

[1] Not the Sun on Merseyside, obviously.

 

[craigybagel]

I think there is, yet again, an East v West split here. I cannot recall the last time at any time of day or night that I haven't had my ticket checked by a conductor on a Northern service in the North East or at the very least an announcement to the effect of "I'm sorry I can't sell tickets but my machine is broken". It's been a while since I've been a regular user of Northern services in and around Yorkshire but there as well ticket checks were common any time of day or night.

My comments were based on observations both East and West, but with the vast majority in the West. The West guards aren't very far behind those in the East in my own experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My comments were based on observations both East and West, but with the vast majority in the West. The West guards aren't very far behind those in the East in my own experience.

Certainly there's more chance of it on any Northern service than on the south WCML, where guards doing revenue are very much the exception. North of Northampton it's very different - the culture around Birmingham is to do revenue.

 

[Matt_pool]

From personal experience using the Liverpool-Warrington-Man Oxford Rd line, out of the last 5 or 6 times I have caught a Northern service into Lime Street my ticket has only been checked once. And thinking about it, I can't remember the last time my ticket was checked on a train departing from Lime Street!

The majority of these trains use platforms 6-10 at Lime Street which have no barriers. I always have a ticket, but I'm guessing that a lot of people don't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The majority of these trains use platforms 6-10 at Lime Street which have no barriers. I always have a ticket, but I'm guessing that a lot of people don't.

I must admit I was very surprised that these platforms did not gain barriers as part of the recent rebuild. It's not like it'd be difficult to do - the layout would make it very easy to have them at the concourse end, which is where the manned barrier used to be years ago. Indeed, the whole reason for the glass wall at the end of those platforms was to allow a manned barrier to be operated effectively.

 

[driver_m]

Again, I am baffled by how the TOCs haven't enforced the guards to check tickets, purely because it's in all their interests to increase revenue, commission for guards, bonuses for management that get their figures up, and also lowers complaints from those who say their tickets don't get checked. One thing our lot do is counts of people on board. Because the train also has a weighing ability to send back to base, it can corroborate what has been counted, and therefore gets tickets checked . I've heard of various carrot and stick methods being used at TOCs to do similar too . (Obvs this would be for newer units)

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Thanks for that, does it mean someone turning up in a wheelchair at an unmanned station can't get on? In 2018??

Edit - adds that I have just read the post above. Could a driver not see the pax; maybe if thye are in a shelter?

1) it's 2019.
2) Disabled assistance should be booked.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/disabled_passengers.aspx

 

[Andrew Nelson]

So RMT have caved to the position Northern and the Government have been offering for months and they've previously refused to even discuss (guarantee of a second trained staff member on board, not necessarily a guard)?

Wonder what caused them to finally stop digging their heels in and actually talk about the offer on the table.

Exactly.

Just shows the pointlessness of the RMT's willy waving.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

To be fair, if said guards were OBSs instead they'd still be sat around reading the paper. What is needed is sanctions against people who fail to do their job properly, and for the Unions to support this, as such people damage the reputation of the majority of staff who *do* do their job properly and of the railway more widely.

Absolutely.

 

[craigybagel]

Exactly.

Just shows the pointlessness of the RMT's willy waving.

As has been pointed out numerous times, the offer RMT have accepted is not what has offered in the past. That is what has changed. The RMT's "willy waving" as you so crudely describe it has achieved a good result for their members - which is pretty much their only purpose in life.

 

[gazzaa2]

From personal experience using the Liverpool-Warrington-Man Oxford Rd line, out of the last 5 or 6 times I have caught a Northern service into Lime Street my ticket has only been checked once. And thinking about it, I can't remember the last time my ticket was checked on a train departing from Lime Street!

The majority of these trains use platforms 6-10 at Lime Street which have no barriers. I always have a ticket, but I'm guessing that a lot of people don't.

When they do come around there's loads without tickets and the guard has his/her hands full. There should be barriers. It's a lot of lost revenue.

 

[edwin_m]

In what is a charmingly archaic method of working, the guard produces a green flag to the platform staff who then indicate the RA. I must admit to not entirely understanding what the benefit of this is over two on the buzzer, though.

Perhaps because the RA is interlocked with the platform starter signal so can't be given if it's at danger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps because the RA is interlocked with the platform starter signal so can't be given if it's at danger.

Ah, good point, I guess it would prevent "ding ding and away" SPADs.

 

[Gems]

So much upset because the RMT has won again. Has it ever occurred to anyone here that the RMT might have won because their approach was actually the most cost effective, safest, and logical? I think it say's far more about the ineptitude of the DFT and TOC's that they allowed this to drag on for two years only to come right back to where they started.

 

[furnessvale]

So much upset because the RMT has won again. Has it ever occurred to anyone here that the RMT might have won because their approach was actually the most cost effective, safest, and logical? I think it say's far more about the ineptitude of the DFT and TOC's that they allowed this to drag on for two years only to come right back to where they started.

Has the role of the conductor been agreed yet?

 

[Tomnick]

I also think there's a job satisfaction aspect relating to feeling in control - the train doesn't go until you've had those two on the buzzer.

I’m sure that’s a part of it (it certainly would be for me, I admit!), but on a more practical level it also largely eliminates the risk - and worry - of being accidentally left behind whilst carrying out duties on the platform.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Is there any actual evidence this is going to happen? Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Sarcasm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m sure that’s a part of it (it certainly would be for me, I admit!), but on a more practical level it also largely eliminates the risk - and worry - of being accidentally left behind whilst carrying out duties on the platform.

The Southern OBSs still have a key and use local door to prevent the train departing.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

As has been pointed out numerous times, the offer RMT have accepted is not what has offered in the past. That is what has changed. The RMT's "willy waving" as you so crudely describe it has achieved a good result for their members - which is pretty much their only purpose in life.

No it hasn't "achieved a good result for their members", it's cost them thousands each.

And for what, we'll have a second member of staff on the train, just like we have now, and just like we were always going to have.

Short of having barriers at EVERY station, what other option was there?

 

[WatcherZero]

Ok, details starting to emerge on whats been agreed at ACAS. Northern have agreed to a conductor on every train not just rostered for every train and in return RMT has dropped the insistence that the Guard/Conductor are performing safety critical duties, so likely eventual end to their role with doors.

Basically another Merseyrail type agreement.

ASLEF has signalled to Northern they have no problem operating doors.... for a price.

 

[bb21]

Ok, details starting to emerge on whats been agreed at ACAS. Northern have agreed to a conductor on every train not just rostered for every train and in return RMT has dropped the insistence that the Guard/Conductor are performing safety critical duties, so likely eventual end to their role with doors.

Basically another Merseyrail type agreement.

Do you have a source for that?

 

[WatcherZero]

Tony Miles