Northern strike action suspended

[scrapy]

I thought that the matter most stressed by the RMT in debates and interviews was the safety-critical duties performed to be protectful of the travelling public in instances when this need should arise, so surely that is one matter that they now cannot be seen to agreeing to.

Conductors/guards would still have personal track safety cards and be able to assist in out of course situations on trains where drivers operate doors. They need this to operate trains that don't have driver operated doors.

 

[yorksrob]

DOO only works with stations which are staffed and barriered. This is fine on London commuter routes where stations have been barriered for years, but to implement it on a route like Wharfedale or Calder Valley would cost more than the savings in guards' wages. Stations like Walsden, Ravensthorpe and even the newly built Low Moor and Kirkstall Forge, would need buildings installed (or at the very least canopies over the gatelines) and fencing to prevent folk from dodging round said gatelines. Considering TPE spent a load of money installing barriers at Dewsbury which can't be used due to a lack of fire exits from P1, a bit more common sense is required.

Quite. There was absolutely no justification of the Government putting Northern passengers through this fiasco, given our trains would have to have a second person anyway.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

To me, whether they have "achieved a good result for their members" depends on your perspective and your level of scepticism about the intentions of the government. You are both correct to a certain extent, but I wouldn't be getting overly excited just yet.

Encouraging signs so far for those poor customers who have suffered a great deal of late.

Spot on.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Northern don't give a damn about revenue. If they did they'd have fitted their units with extra door controls years ago, or made a better effort of barriering their stations

This dispute was about making it possible to run trains with only a driver. Thanks to this dispute, they have failed in their attempt to make this happen.

And it's worth pointing out - this dispute wasnt the reckless action of an uncontrolled Union - it was democratically voted for by it's members, who from what I can tell are now pretty happy, or at least cautiously optimistic, about their future.

For "it was democratically voted for by it's members" read "tiny proportion".

 

[driver_m]

For "it was democratically voted for by it's members" read "tiny proportion".

I take it you can back that comment up with figures?

 

[driver_m]

My comment was not to suggest that DOO is necessary in order to secure a hefty pay increase, rather to suggest that, from a TOC's POV, by avoiding full DOO it might be possible to avoid such an increase being granted just to make DOO agreeable to drivers.

I know what you were getting at. But here on the ground, you'll do well to find a driver happy to accept said money at a TOC that doesn't have any DOO. It's pointless to offer it now. Northern and Merseyrail drivers would never have accepted it, but until it gets put to the test via an actual proposal, then some will continue to think a bribe could work .

 

[craigybagel]

For "it was democratically voted for by it's members" read "tiny proportion".

I take it you can back that comment up with figures?

The internet is great, you can find lots of useful figures.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/ballot...-of-doo-arriva-rail-north280217/?preview=true

Dear Colleague,

Role of the Guard & Extension of Doo – Arriva Rail North

I write to advise you that the ballot of you and your colleagues has now concluded and the result is as follows: -

Are you prepared to take strike action?

Total Votes Cast 837
Number Voting ‘Yes’ 696
Number Voting ‘No’ 137
Spoilt Papers 4

Are you prepared to take industrial action short of a strike?

Total Votes Cast 837
Number Voting ‘Yes’ 777
Number Voting ‘No’ 54
Spoilt Papers 6

The National Executive Committee is currently considering this result and I shall revert back to you in due course.

Yours sincerely

Mick Cash
General Secretary

 

[Lemmy99uk]

How are those routes for fare evasion?

Pretty low I would imagine as the frequency of ticket checks seems to be far higher than on trains with a Guard.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can confirm that the above is incorrect on all counts, the only thing that has been agreed is a safety critical guard on all services for the remainder of the franchise, thats from a senior RMT officer.

Just as I thought.

I can imagine that the RMT have agreed to driver door control (as on XC) but that the guard controls closure with the bell.

Unless @WatcherZero fancies coming back with a source?

 

[furnessvale]

I can confirm that the above is incorrect on all counts, the only thing that has been agreed is a safety critical guard on all services for the remainder of the franchise, thats from a senior RMT officer.

In regards as Merseyrail agreement, there isn't one yet as its still being discussed.

I don't question your source but I do wonder why the RMT press release didn't say that.

They refer to a "conductor" when they have always previously referred to a "safety critical guard" and the press release says the operational details have still to be agreed.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't question your source but I do wonder why the RMT press release didn't say that.

They refer to a "conductor" when they have always previously referred to a "safety critical guard" and the press release says the operational details have still to be agreed.

I think we should go no further than there is a very broad agreement in principle which is enough to suspend action pending further discussions on implementation.

 

[LowLevel]

I think we should go no further than there is a very broad agreement in principle which is enough to suspend action pending further discussions on implementation.

I think with all the banging on about what it means you've finally got it spot on.

Northern have agreed that all trains will run with a conductor, the end.

The RMT and Northern are now in a position to enter talks to discuss what exactly the conductor will be doing going forward.

 

[ricoblade]

I can see another fight happening at the start of the next franchise. The guards role isn't what it used to be and with this statement may see door operation passed over to the driver completely.

@Bletchleyite hit the nail on the head. The guards who sit around in the back cab need managing better to do their revenue checks.

Both Northern guards on my Retford<>Sheffield journey this week were very active in ticket checking many times and in helping passengers on/off.

 

[DarloRich]

I think with all the banging on about what it means you've finally got it spot on.

Northern have agreed that all trains will run with a conductor, the end.

The RMT and Northern are now in a position to enter talks to discuss what exactly the conductor will be doing going forward.

exactly. The good news is that action is suspended to allow detailed talks to take place. lets leave it there for now.

 

[Carlisle]

Ahem...You can also achieve decent pay increases without DOO. Look at what XC drivers pick up .

But nearly everyone realises that’s almost entirely down to whether a TOC wishes to spend time and money on training new recruits alongside the bargaining power of the de facto closed shop that exists within the drivers grade, rather than any meaningful difference in productivity between XC and drivers at other TOCs

 

[Goldfish62]

Just as I thought.

I can imagine that the RMT have agreed to driver door control (as on XC) but that the guard controls closure with the bell.

Unless @WatcherZero fancies coming back with a source?

Or maybe the guard not involved with the doors at all as appears to have been agreed at GA.

Incidentally driver door release is much more extensive than just on XC - it's probably the most common method of door operation across the UK.

 

[R G NOW.]

Or maybe the guard not involved with the doors at all as appears to have been agreed at GA.

Incidentally driver door release is much more extensive than just on XC - it's probably the most common method of door operation across the UK.

In my area I have never known doors to be released by drivers. It appears the conductor always does it. First, the train pulls in, the conductor opens their local door, looks at the side of the train, then presses release button.

I suggest we wait the outcome, as darlorich says?.

 

[radamfi]

Even before Southern strikes, Southern used to have the driver opening the doors and the guard closing them. Now of course the driver opens and closes the doors. The On Board Supervisor was supposed to check tickets more often than guards do but I still don't see that much ticket checking on Southern.

 

[Goldfish62]

In my area I have never known doors to be released by drivers. It appears the conductor always does it. First, the train pulls in, the conductor opens their local door, looks at the side of the train, then presses release button.

I suggest we wait the outcome, as darlorich says?.

That's your area, same as mine. However if you look at the all the trains and TOCs which use driver door release it seems obvious to me that it's the most common method.

 

[coppercapped]

Or maybe the guard not involved with the doors at all as appears to have been agreed at GA.

Incidentally driver door release is much more extensive than just on XC - it's probably the most common method of door operation across the UK.

If one includes the Underground trains in London, which carry some 40% of all the passenger journeys in the country with a very frequent service (and therefore number of trains), with ONLY a driver on board, then the proportion of trains where the driver operates the doors is probably around three quarters of the total.

(And yes, including LT is valid - the central area stations are often packed and it runs out to much less frequented areas on the fringes. It is, in many ways, a microcosm of the national system).

 

[Carlisle]

However if you look at the all the trains and TOCs which use driver door release it seems obvious to me that it's the most common method.

Partly or completely non DOO TOCs currently using driver door release (on compatible stock)
GWR
VTWC
Southern
South Eastern
Cross Country
Scotrail
Greater Anglia
Chiltern

 

[CaptainHaddock]

As Northern must have lost a huge number of leisure travellers due to the lack of Saturday services for the last 6 months, it would be good if they introduced some special offers to entice them back. Maybe they could extend the Northern £10 Day Ranger deal to cover all Saturdays for the next six months, but remove the requirement to collect tokens?

 

[cactustwirly]

DOO only works with stations which are staffed and barriered. This is fine on London commuter routes where stations have been barriered for years, but to implement it on a route like Wharfedale or Calder Valley would cost more than the savings in guards' wages. Stations like Walsden, Ravensthorpe and even the newly built Low Moor and Kirkstall Forge, would need buildings installed (or at the very least canopies over the gatelines) and fencing to prevent folk from dodging round said gatelines. Considering TPE spent a load of money installing barriers at Dewsbury which can't be used due to a lack of fire exits from P1, a bit more common sense is required.

I'm of the opinion that the whole debacle was driven by a Tory determination to smash the unions. That they appear to have failed in those efforts for now doesn't mean it's all champagne and smiles though. Come the next franchise negotiations, it'll all come round again. If any moves towards DOO are implemented, they need to be properly costed with regard to alternatives, including staffing and barriering ALL stations.

Not all DOO stations are barriered, it doesn't really matter as most people will be travelling to barried stations.
Anyway it'll be much more effective than a guard that spends all day in the back cab...

 

[Weekender]

Let's hope that the guards who tend to be 'shy' realise the significance of this decision to retain them for this franchise. We have also had one guard dismissed recently at my place for serial failure to collect revenue.

Not an RMT member then, otherwise Mick Cash will be preparing another strike ballot.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not all DOO stations are barriered, it doesn't really matter as most people will be travelling to barried stations.
Anyway it'll be much more effective than a guard that spends all day in the back cab...

It'll be more expensive too... even if not ALL stations are barriered, most of them will need to be for it to have any effect. When those costs are taken into account on a route which isn't already geared to it, I'm convinced that DOO on routes with less than 4tph* is a false economy.

*= discounting branches off a core with a more frequent service, such as Braintree.

 

[bb21]

Not an RMT member then, otherwise Mick Cash will be preparing another strike ballot.

From what I understand, the unions don't go on strike willy nilly. They still assess each case to see whether there is any merit to the member's case. I have knowledge of quite a few cases where the union was unable to help the member in question, so there is no guarantee at all there would be a strike.

 

[Jonfun]

Conductors/guards would still have personal track safety cards and be able to assist in out of course situations on trains where drivers operate doors. They need this to operate trains that don't have driver operated doors.

To be fair, any member of staff could be PTS trained and assist in out of course situations. "Assist" is the key word. It has little bearing on whether they're trained and assessed competent as a Guard.

As it stands this suspension of industrial action could be anything from maintaining the status quo, to the RMT caving and accepting DOO provided there is an OBS on every train. It would be a shame to see the latter because the RMT Guards have fought hard to remain as Guards. We're likely to see something in between.

 

[6Gman]

From what I understand, the unions don't go on strike willy nilly. They still assess each case to see whether there is any merit to the member's case. I have knowledge of quite a few cases where the union was unable to help the member in question, so there is no guarantee at all there would be a strike.

This. The idea that it's "everybody out" whenever a member is disciplined is just not accurate.

 

[nuts & bolts]

Perhaps because the RA is interlocked with the platform starter signal so can't be given if it's at danger.

I know of one location where the RA has been given before CD!

 

[R G NOW.]

I know of one location where the RA has been given before CD!

How did that happen, the computer system should not of allowed that function to work. But sometimes they only need to use the RA I suppose.

Dispatch staff not having their eyes on the job.