More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

[LowLevel]

Sadly, it isn't possible to manage, design or legislate away all risk. The UK has miles of substandard fencing because people keep pulling it down to take shortcuts across the railway. People WILL get hit by trains, just in the same way that they get hit by cars, buses and lorries.

I'm not bothered if the FS is taken out of service and put in a museum or put out to pasture at 25mph on a preserved railway, but the key to reducing the risk of a coupling/person interface is education in schools from the word go. Make it clear to kids just how horrible the aftermath of a person being hit by a train is and that the other side of the fence (even if it is mostly not there) isn't somewhere to go, at any time.

NR should identify the individuals in these videos and photos and throw the legal book at them as well as publicly humiliating them by publishing their names and faces in the national media.

The reason the fencing is substandard is largely because it's old, wooden, rotten and has fallen over on some of places I work

 

[bramling]

That it is the rail enthusiast/spotter that is casuing lots of the problems in these situations. If we see such behaviour we have to take a stand. Turning a blind eye is endorsing such behaviour.

"We" (all of us here who use the railway and pay tax) already fund the BTP, who have the responsibility to deal with criminal behaviour on the railway system.

In my view it isn't for people to be going round picking potential fights with others doing wrong, although I'd be quite happy to share information with the BTP if prompted to do so. Likewise it's for railway staff to deal with out-of-course problems, one reason staff get generously paid. Where I am people moan about things and "wouldn't my job be so much easier if X didn't happen"; yes it would be, which means recruitment would be rather easier and in consequence pay quite probably rather lower. Careful what one wishes for...

 

[yorksrob]

No. The principle that we should, as someone else once put it, go back to the days of the only way a driver knowing he'd killed a platelayer on a blind bend was seeing a flat cap fly past the window, is however fairly abhorrent to me as is the concept of families wandering around on high speed mainlines.

The question then, is how do we stop the safety authorities going too far, since (I would argue) the unwillingness to authorise further third rail infill electrification is an example of that.

Banning all steam on the mainline would also be an example of that, as would (IMO) doing away with all droplights on the mainline (something Mr Prosser recently alluded to in one of his interviews).

 

[Ianno87]

In terms of safety, I agree with your point to an extent. But only to an extent.

I do not agree (for example) that further infill electrification with the third rail shouldn't be undertaken because it is supposedly "unsafe".

...but in the electrification case, better safety is not the *only* reason why overhead electrification is generally preferred, it is one benefit of several (e.g. better cold weather resilience, lower long term operating cost, higher speed/better traction performance, etc)

 

[driver_m]

For those who were saying it’s mainly FS and Tornado. Not so. I remember being at Lime St where the platform staff were effectively herding cats trying to get people to stop going off ramp and almost onto the old pl8 to get a picture of some minor Steam Engine. Leander I think it was called. I was waiting to go off 7 at the time. One of the NR guys was going mad saying that this happens every time a steamer comes in.
The occasion when I nearly bowled someone at Beeston involved another less famous steam loco, something from BR era I recall and another one was another LMS loco. The ‘worst’ diesel for spotting trouble is undoubtedly a Deltic, but 40s attract the odd idiot too.

 

[LowLevel]

The question then, is how do we stop the safety authorities going too far, since (I would argue) the unwillingness to authorise further third rail infill electrification is an example of that.

Banning all steam on the mainline would also be an example of that, as would (IMO) doing away with all droplights on the mainline (something Mr Prosser recently alluded to in one of his interviews).

I don't want to see all steam on the mainline banned (although make no mistake there are plenty of people in the industry who would love to see the back of it and that's why the current situation is so dangerous).

Droplights though - not fussed. They've been superseded.

 

[yorksrob]

...but in the electrification case, better safety is not the *only* reason why overhead electrification is generally preferred, it is one benefit of several (e.g. better cold weather resilience, lower long term operating cost, higher speed/better traction performance, etc)

That may be the case (and I say "may", because the third rail may be more susceptible to ice, but it's a lot more resilient to high winds)

But even if those were supposedly all correct arguments, surely the railway industry would decide not to install third rail from an operational point of view, rather than having the decision imposed by the ORR.

 

[The Box Photter]

So we have a steam ban on the mainline, no need for droplight windows or Mk1 stock anymore. NR is happy, TOCs are happy and BTP are happy. But the world has become a little more soulless.

 

[Ianno87]

For those who were saying it’s mainly FS and Tornado. Not so. I remember being at Lime St where the platform staff were effectively herding cats trying to get people to stop going off ramp and almost onto the old pl8 to get a picture of some minor Steam Engine. Leander I think it was called. I was waiting to go off 7 at the time. One of the NR guys was going mad saying that this happens every time a steamer comes in.
The occasion when I nearly bowled someone at Beeston involved another less famous steam loco, something from BR era I recall and another one was another LMS loco. The ‘worst’ diesel for spotting trouble is undoubtedly a Deltic, but 40s attract the odd idiot too.

I was on The Pennine Blackpool Express the other week, hauled in part by Leander.

On the return engine change at Preston some of the behaviour was....interesting. Not much respect for the yellow line, to the point where the conductor of a departing TPE 350s had to yell 'Stand Back!' at the top of her voice out of the window.

It's also on these tours I see how few enthusiasts actually understand railway operations... like having cameras poised awaiting the perfect shot when the platform starting signal tells you the train ain't moving anywhere just yet!

 

[yorksrob]

I don't want to see all steam on the mainline banned (although make no mistake there are plenty of people in the industry who would love to see the back of it and that's why the current situation is so dangerous).

Droplights though - not fussed. They've been superseded.

I was on a Mk 3 to Wales recently. The announcements were "do not open or stick any part of your body out of the window until the train has stopped".

Ludicrous. By all means instruct people not to stick body parts out of the window while moving, but there is absolutely no safety related reason to instruct people not to open drop lights.

This goes for charter stock, where the droplight has not been superceded, and won't be for many years either.

 

[jamesst]

So we have a steam ban on the mainline, no need for droplight windows or Mk1 stock anymore. NR is happy, TOCs are happy and BTP are happy. But the world has become a little more soulless.

Excellent, the sooner the better in that case

 

[The Box Photter]

Excellent, the sooner the better in that case

But people will still trespass on the railway.

 

[Ken H]

...but in the electrification case, better safety is not the *only* reason why overhead electrification is generally preferred, it is one benefit of several (e.g. better cold weather resilience, lower long term operating cost, higher speed/better traction performance, etc)

yes. but small infill schemes in an otherwise 3rd rail area make sense. Uckfield is the obvious one. maybe ormskirk-preson or Kirby -Wigan

and if they had made the underground section of crossrail 3rd rail, the tunnels could have been a lot smaller and far far cheaper.

 

[433N]

Ah, the "yellow line of death" some three feet from the edge of the platform. Just another way that those in authority get to exert power over the ordinary folk. The edge of the platform is a dangerous place, go over it and get hit by a train that should be the responsibility of the person hit by the train and no-one else.

Can I just make a pedantic point, as somebody who knows probably a bit too much about flow dynamics. It is my understanding that the yellow line is actually to prevent you being sucked up by the train at speed - 1 metre being 'safe' in this regard. It would probably be narrower if it were there just to stop people being hit by a train.

 

[Ken H]

Can I just make a pedantic point, as somebody who knows probably a bit too much about flow dynamics. It is my understanding that the yellow line is actually to prevent you being sucked up by the train at speed - 1 metre being 'safe' in this regard. It would probably be narrower if it were there just to stop people being hit by a train.

didnt they start that so people were not hit by doors before central locking. Opening the rear door of a Mk 3 coach would catch the wind and fly open.

 

[Ianno87]

So as presumably “ordinary folk,” what’s the position of safety if the line speed is <100mph?? Or >101mph?

I assume you know more than the people tasked with making sure you’re not smeared down the side of a train?

Can I just make a pedantic point, as somebody who knows probably a bit too much about flow dynamics. It is my understanding that the yellow line is actually to prevent you being sucked up by the train at speed - 1 metre being 'safe' in this regard. It would probably be narrower if it were there just to stop people being hit by a train.

didnt they start that so people were not hit by doors before central locking. Opening the rear door of a Mk 3 coach would catch the wind and fly open.

And gives a clear line of sight down the side of the train for safe despatch, of course.

But some apparently think they know better....

 

[bramling]

It's also on these tours I see how few enthusiasts actually understand railway operations...

Yes it's always amusing to hear some of the rubbish some people come out with, both on tours and during events. Often especially those who feel the need to give a running commentary!

 

[driver_m]

Ah, the "yellow line of death" some three feet from the edge of the platform. Just another way that those in authority get to exert power over the ordinary folk. The edge of the platform is a dangerous place, go over it and get hit by a train that should be the responsibility of the person hit by the train and no-one else.

When I see barriers set up at the ends of platforms and staff in high-viz vests telling people that part of the platform that was perfectly safe to stand on yesterday, but today is a death zone because a "steamer" is arriving, it makes my heart sink and I contemplate taking up golf.

I bet more people died on golf courses last year than did trespassing on the railway, or crossing the yellow line.

And this is exactly the sort of attitude that we have to put up with when telling people to get behind the line. Do you seriously think for one minute that people enjoy telling others to get back? Who seriously enjoys listening to some old goat telling staff that ‘back in the day, you could do this and that’ You didn’t have ambulance chasing lawyers in quite the same way back then, or a compo culture. Watch that video of the trolley rolling off the platform at Nuneaton and being shredded by a Freightliner on the down slow platform. The line is there for a good reason. I’ve blasted so many distracted people on phones, spotters taking photos, even staff not getting back far enough when passing through stations. But hey, the golf course will welcome your wallet with open arms. Fill your boots.

 

[GB]

Can I just make a pedantic point, as somebody who knows probably a bit too much about flow dynamics. It is my understanding that the yellow line is actually to prevent you being sucked up by the train at speed - 1 metre being 'safe' in this regard. It would probably be narrower if it were there just to stop people being hit by a train.

Nothing to do with being "sucked up". The lines are marked at safe distance for potential issues such as open doors, out of gauge load and reduce risk of lose cloths being caught up.

 

[Stampy]

Just putting this here that I saw on Youtube....

Stupid Trainspotter gets too close to 170 unit

 

[DanDaDriver]

Exactly which part of the train extends for three feet over the edge of the platform? Is the train going to jump off the tracks and grab me? No, the yellow line just allows orange-vested jobsworths to shout at the paying public as they do every day at Blackfriars.

You should probably write to the RSSB and give them the benefit of your knowledge...

 

[Llanigraham]

Why so different in the UK?

Because UK Law and the Acts of Parliament that lines were built under required all lines to be "enclosed".

 

[HaggisBotherer]

Nothing to do with being "sucked up". The lines are marked at safe distance for potential issues such as open doors, out of gauge load and reduce risk of lose cloths being caught up.

If memory serves me correctly, platform yellow lines were first introduced at certain stations on the Western Region with the advent of the HSTs. Which is where I first saw them, in the late 1970s. When they were originally introduced it was absolutely nothing to do with open doors and everything to do with the perceived risk of people standing close to the edge of platforms as HSTs banged through at 125 mph. And I seem to recall that the risk of being 'sucked off' was involved.

Although keeping people back from opening doors may well be the reason that they were introduced at major stations, they were not, and never have been, to...

 

[JN114]

So looking in TRUST, well over 2000 delay minutes either directly associated with Scotsman or Trespass from its running yesterday; dozens of trains cancelled or altered. That’s more disruptive than some major signalling failures or high-traffic mainline fatalities.

 

[ComUtoR]

So potentially pushing half a mil quid. Maybe the operator should take the attribution.

 

[HOOVER29]

Just putting this here....

Change of y-fronts sir?
Look at all the beaming faces.
Meanwhile the driver of the water drinking device is sounding his whistle.
Not to show off his lovely polished brass work to all the ageing attendees but to try & warn the one brainless pillock that thinks trains will stop for him while he stands almost on the track to get his stupid shot.
Imagine what the driver of the 170 unit was going through when he saw numbnuts standing almost on the line.
Then there’s the elderly groupies on the platform ramp.
Death will come a knocking one day make no doubt about it.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Change of y-fronts sir?
Look at all the beaming faces.
Meanwhile the driver of the water drinking device is sounding his whistle.
Not to show off his lovely polished brass work to all the ageing attendees but to try & warn the one brainless pillock that thinks trains will stop for him while he stands almost on the track to get his stupid shot.
Imagine what the driver of the 170 unit was going through when he saw numbnuts standing almost on the line.
Then there’s the elderly groupies on the platform ramp.
Death will come a knocking one day make no doubt about it.

But it was fine, why in the early 50’s you could slip the porter 2p (a weeks wages for a working man) and sit on the running line all day. Only a few kids got killed, and it sure as hell beat getting polio. But things were better then.

 

[HOOVER29]

So looking in TRUST, well over 2000 delay minutes either directly associated with Scotsman or Trespass from its running yesterday; dozens of trains cancelled or altered. That’s more disruptive than some major signalling failures or high-traffic mainline fatalities.

From just yesterday?
Blimey it’s a lot isn’t it.
It really is time to stick steamers on the Settle & Carlisle.
Now the coal flows have disappeared there are plenty of free paths.

 

[Meole]

Time for a ban on locos both diesel and steam, an outdated haulage method in the modern world, slow freight should stick to the road.

 

[HOOVER29]

But it was fine, why in the early 50’s you could slip the porter 2p (a weeks wages for a working man) and sit on the running line all day. Only a few kids got killed, and it sure as hell beat getting polio. But things were better then.

Everything was better back then or so I’m told by my mum, uncles, aunts etc etc.