ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

It does to an extent, yes. If it's just a trolley, what's the difference against the previous catering service?

Seems a shame to go to the bother of having a buffet and not use them. Mind you, it's not the first time.

Heard something very dissapointing re the buffet & cycle storage. Just a 'bothy rumour' though, so I won't elaborate. Those on here who are staff & on the HST group on Yammer may know what I mean

 

[BRX]

Currently, an HST stabled at the depot in the evening, for service the next day, would be left with a power car running (at 1000rpm, equivalent to Notch 2 power) all night. Not ideal!

Seems a bit crazy that this is the case. As far as the "what could Scotrail have done better" argument is concerned - surely getting the infrastructure ready before the trains arrived would have been a good idea.

 

[jingsmonty]

Seems a bit crazy that this is the case. As far as the "what could Scotrail have done better" argument is concerned - surely getting the infrastructure ready before the trains arrived would have been a good idea.

I couldn't possibly comment!! The shore supply in the station all depends on how long the set is stabled for - if it's a quick turnaround, it wouldn't be worth doing - I'm not even sure if this is something that maintenance staff would have to do, open the nose door, shut the engines down, connect the jumpers & turn on the shore supply.

However, most definetly worth doing if the set is to be stabled for a significant amount of time. A set may be sitting in the station overnight for example. I, personally, hope there's a shore supply installed in the 'Motorail Siding' (beside Debenhams/Morrisons), as we stable sets in there quite often.

 

[Railperf]

Not sure if you're just taking about the Scotrail 4+2 sets, ot the GWR 'Castle' sets as well? I'd expect the GWR ones to be better, given the 40+ Years of experience & infrastructure that's in place for them (as scotraildriver said in an earlier post).

I'm sure modern railways magazine was referring to the gwr versions but not sure whether that was classic or refurbished or indeed a mixture of both.

 

[Railperf]

I'm sure modern railways magazine was referring to the gwr versions but not sure whether that was classic or refurbished or indeed a mixture of both.

And I don't recall seeing ScotRail sets being listed in the figures

 

[hexagon789]

To be honest, Inverness station area hasn't really had an issue with noise. eg, no restrictions with doing safety checks (including sounding the horn) when working nightshift. Only real area where noise pollution would be an issue is out North of the station, as there's houses that back onto the line. We only go out there to couple sets & to change ends for shunt moves.

I thought it might pacify those who complain about the noise/constantly running engines

 

[hexagon789]

Heard something very dissapointing re the buffet & cycle storage. Just a 'bothy rumour' though, so I won't elaborate. Those on here who are staff & on the HST group on Yammer may know what I mean

They are getting rid of the buffet and replacing it with bike storage?

Wouldn't surprise me

 

[jingsmonty]

I'm sure modern railways magazine was referring to the gwr versions but not sure whether that was classic or refurbished or indeed a mixture of both.

And I don't recall seeing ScotRail sets being listed in the figures

Sounds right

 

[jingsmonty]

They are getting rid of the buffet and replacing it with bike storage?

Wouldn't surprise me

You've heard that rumour too, then. It's an utter disgrace if it's true. Plenty of bike storage in the Power Car luggage area, surely it can't be that difficult to figure out how to use this? Even if only for end to end trips? I'm getting a hint of 'Deja Vu' here, think this discussion has been had already!

 

[hexagon789]

You've heard that rumour too, then. It's an utter disgrace if it's true. Plenty of bike storage in the Power Car luggage area, surely it can't be that difficult to figure out how to use this? Even if only for end to end trips? I'm getting a hint of 'Deja Vu' here, think this discussion has been had already!

No, it was a guess based on your statement. I agree though, it is a disgrace if true.

Mind you, as if recall correctly Abellio didn't have to provide a buffet service under the terms of the franchise agreemebt.

 

[sprinterguy]

Mind you, as if recall correctly Abellio didn't have to provide a buffet service under the terms of the franchise agreemebt.

It is specified in the franchise agreement:

On or before the 31st December 2018, the Franchisee shall ensure that catering facilities are available on all rolling stock deployed on Inter-city Routes. The Franchisee shall install a catering area located between First and Standard featuring a service hatch, coffee machine, combination oven, refrigeration, water boiler, preparation surfaces and product storage to support the at seat trolley services.

Of course the deadline date has already been missed, as a result of the delayed introduction of the refurbished HST fleet.

 

[hexagon789]

It is specified in the franchise agreement:

Of course the deadline date has already been missed, as a result of the delayed introduction of the refurbished HST fleet.

Ah, okay. For some reason I thought it only specified at-seat catering.

 

[jingsmonty]

It is specified in the franchise agreement:

Of course the deadline date has already been missed, as a result of the delayed introduction of the refurbished HST fleet.

Many thanks, sprinterguy - I wasn't sure. I'm sure it did specified cycle storage as well.....

 

[sprinterguy]

We need some positivity in this thread.

In good news then, yesterday was apparently the first day that four of the current five refurbished sets were in passenger service (With the fifth set at Inverness for staff training). Admittedly that feels like a bit of a Pyrrhic victory given that all 26 sets were supposed to have been in service for six months now...

Many thanks, sprinterguy - I wasn't sure. I'm sure it did specified cycle storage as well.....

No problem. There is indeed a mention of cycle storage regarding the inter-city fleet:

The Franchisee shall ensure that the Rolling Stock shall include a Bicycle Storage Area with space for the storage of at least two bicycles in a dedicated area adjacent to an entrance vestibule.

Which means, unfortunately, that there is no requirement for Scotrail to actually use the van area in the power cars for bicycles, as absurd as that seems.

 

[RLBH]

No problem. There is indeed a mention of cycle storage regarding the inter-city fleet:

Which means, unfortunately, that there is no requirement for Scotrail to actually use the van area in the power cars for bicycles, as absurd as that seems.

One would have hoped for a requirement for more than two bicycles in a train with twice the capacity of a 170. But there again the franchise agreement doesn't have an explicit requirement for luggage larger than a medium rucksack or small suitcase, either - only a vague recognition of 'larger items of luggage'.

 

[Highlandspring]

The shore supply in the station all depends on how long the set is stabled for - if it's a quick turnaround, it wouldn't be worth doing - I'm not even sure if this is something that maintenance staff would have to do, open the nose door, shut the engines down, connect the jumpers & turn on the shore supply.

There have been I hesitate to use the word many but it’s certainly more than just ‘a few’ - occasions where a ScotRail HST has been shunted from Aberdeen station to Clayhills for overnight stabling and been plugged into the shore supply and shut down by the LNER fitter as per their operating practice. The fitter then books off in the morning, the driver goes across to move the set and can’t because he or she isn’t passed out in switching off and unplugging the shore supply. Result.. train cancelled and set knocked off diagram until LNER have a fitter available later in the day to release it. Presumably LNER drivers must be passed on plugging/unplugging duties.

 

[hexagon789]

There have been I hesitate to use the word many but it’s certainly more than just ‘a few’ - occasions where a ScotRail HST has been shunted from Aberdeen station to Clayhills for overnight stabling and been plugged into the shore supply and shut down by the LNER fitter as per their operating practice. The fitter then books off in the morning, the driver goes across to move the set and can’t because he or she isn’t passed out in switching off and unplugging the shore supply. Result.. train cancelled and set knocked off diagram until LNER have a fitter available later in the day to release it. Presumably LNER drivers must be passed on plugging/unplugging duties.

Are ScotRail drivers going to get trained on this or will it be fitters only?

 

[Highlandspring]

I have no idea.

 

[hexagon789]

I have no idea.

Thanks anyway.

 

[jingsmonty]

In good news then, yesterday was apparently the first day that four of the current five refurbished sets were in passenger service (With the fifth set at Inverness for staff training). Admittedly that feels like a bit of a Pyrrhic victory given that all 26 sets were supposed to have been in service for six months now...

No problem. There is indeed a mention of cycle storage regarding the inter-city fleet:

Which means, unfortunately, that there is no requirement for Scotrail to actually use the van area in the power cars for bicycles, as absurd as that seems.

The issue is that passengers wouldn't be able to access the power car van area to stow their own bikes. But I'd have thought 'End to End' trips only would be a sensible compromise

 

[Wst71Pa2]

A new classic HST set was introduced today into service However due to signal fault earlier in the day has ended up in Dundee carriage sidings.

There's meant to be a course coming up

 

[Wst71Pa2]

Current rumour is that only 1 hospitality staff member will be onboard. Which isn't great. I've not travelled on a refurbished set in service yet, but others have said that the buffet hasn't been used & has only had a trolley onboard. Seems like missing an open goal to me. .

Bike storage beside a non powered door, .. Well done.
Bikes in via the next vestibule thru the gangway.
You can't make this stuff up

 

[Esker-pades]

Yes passengers are such a pain, they are so stupid.

As a passenger, and someone who has tried to explain, that statement is utter rubbish. Not everyone who defends ScotRail on this thread works for them, or works in the industry. It is very childish to extrapolate any attempt to debate with you out to that poster being against all passengers, or having a certain opinion about them.

Training excuse is really poor and has worn so thin it is now threadbare. Scotrail have had a few years to plan for this. It was obvious classics were going to needed at least a year before they did anything.

And where were these Classic HST sets then? Oh yes. Being operated by GWR.

Hard to argue this is anything other than a shambles. Also the GWR point if experience is so vital why not make more use of GWR knowledge?

I'm arguing that it isn't ScotRail's fault, and pinning all the blame for everything on them is incorrect and pointless.
Re. GWR, your statements about what should and should not have happened between ScotRail and GWR have proved to be false in the past, so forgive me for not trusting your statements about them for a second time.

Still doesn’t explain the classic sets lying out of service. The number leased would indicate more should be in service than currently is the case.

How many Classic sets are there in total, and how many are out on a given day?

You are both wasting your time trying to explain.

I need some light relief sometimes.

 

[jingsmonty]

As a passenger, and someone who has tried to explain, that statement is utter rubbish. Not everyone who defends ScotRail on this thread works for them, or works in the industry. It is very childish to extrapolate any attempt to debate with you out to that poster being against all passengers, or having a certain opinion about them.


And where were these Classic HST sets then? Oh yes. Being operated by GWR.


I'm arguing that it isn't ScotRail's fault, and pinning all the blame for everything on them is incorrect and pointless.
Re. GWR, your statements about what should and should not have happened between ScotRail and GWR have proved to be false in the past, so forgive me for not trusting your statements about them for a second time.


How many Classic sets are there in total, and how many are out on a given day?



I need some light relief sometimes.

The 3 extra Classic sets were made up from spare Scotrail Power cars (presumably zone that haven't been refurbished). The additional trailers were from the stock stored at Ely (?).

Re GWR knowledge - GWR still run some HSTs, so I'd presume the staff there eanted to remain with them. I do think some LNER fitters moved over to Scotrail from Craigentinny though. Scotrail did use some GWR training material for our training, I do know that much. They also trained the original group of Scotrail trainers on HST, so they could, in turn, train us.

 

[jingsmonty]

Bike storage beside a non powered door, .. Well done.
Bikes in via the next vestibule thru the gangway.
You can't make this stuff up

I'd emphasise this is JUST A RUMOUR - you make a very valid point about the non opening vestibule doors by the buffet.

I'd think it would be more likely that a disused toilet/cupboard would be converted (pretty sure there is at least one). A 4+2 refurbished set has 3 toilets (1 of which is prm compliant), so, given a Classic would have had 2 per coach, this shouldn't be too much of an issue.

As others have stated, ripping out the buffet would be a breach of the franchise agreement anyway

 

[Highlandspring]

Variations on the agreement are routinely negotiated with Transport Scotland. Not sure they’d agree ditching the buffet altogether just because ScotRail are too tightfisted to resource it properly though..

 

[hexagon789]

I'd emphasise this is JUST A RUMOUR - you make a very valid point about the non opening vestibule doors by the buffet.

I'd think it would be more likely that a disused toilet/cupboard would be converted (pretty sure there is at least one). A 4+2 refurbished set has 3 toilets (1 of which is prm compliant), so, given a Classic would have had 2 per coach, this shouldn't be too much of an issue.

As others have stated, ripping out the buffet would be a breach of the franchise agreement anyway

Appreciate it just a rumour, but a rumour with a grain enough of logic in it that it wouldn't seem totally 'out there' if it happened. Though the point of the franchise agreement is a good one, but as noted they do renegotiate these things - so you never know...

 

[Killingworth]

Over 8400 posts to wade through! Having travelled to Bristol and Cardiff in new HSTs about 1977 it's remarkable that they're still in use, and will be for a few years yet.

2 power cars with 4 coaches seems a lot of spare capacity, especially when 9 car units have apparently operated successfully on the ECML.

Assuming these teething problems can be resolved, surely a refurbished fleet that doesn't fail is going to attract new users.

Is there any likelihood, even possibility, that the units could subsequently be stretched to 5 or 6 cars to match increased demand?

Sorry if this was discussed months ago.

 

[hexagon789]

Over 8400 posts to wade through! Having travelled to Bristol and Cardiff in new HSTs about 1977 it's remarkable that they're still in use, and will be for a few years yet.

2 power cars with 4 coaches seems a lot of spare capacity, especially when 9 car units have apparently operated successfully on the ECML.

Assuming these teething problems can be resolved, surely a refurbished fleet that doesn't fail is going to attract new users.

Is there any likelihood, even possibility, that the units could subsequently be stretched to 5 or 6 cars to match increased demand?

Sorry if this was discussed months ago.

Of the 26 sets, 17 are to be 2+5, the other 9 2+4 with 2 two sets (one of each I think) being extended to 2+6 within a few years.

That was the plan, this far all sets have been 2+4, hopefully we see some 2+5s before long.

Edit - You could probably make them all 2+5 quite easily, 2+6 might not fit everywhere, not too sure.

 

[pt_mad]

Of the 26 sets, 17 are to be 2+5, the other 9 2+4 with 2 two sets (one of each I think) being extended to 2+6 within a few years.

That was the plan, this far all sets have been 2+4, hopefully we see some 2+5s before long.

Edit - You could probably make them all 2+5 quite easily, 2+6 might not fit everywhere, not too sure.

And is there a buffet within every set / just the classic sets / or just the Inter7City sets? And are there seats within the buffet coach?