ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[RLBH]

LNER currently operate 2+9 HSTs (soon to become Azumas) to Inverness so their needs also come into this, as do Caledonian Sleeper. Of course there are also long special charter trains to be allowed for as well. Combined with Scotrail shorter HSTs to Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow the number of trains wanting to use the 4 south facing platforms should be manageable - until two power cars are added onto the revenue earning vehicles!

The Aberdeen-Inverness line is limited to six vehicles by Elgin station - I believe that the platform is just barely long enough for 6x23m without overhangs. If Scotrail are planning to run 2+5 HSTs over that route, platform length will presumably be an issue as I don't believe power cars are allowed to be off the platform.

 

[najaB]

If Scotrail are planning to run 2+5 HSTs over that route, platform length will presumably be an issue as I don't believe power cars are allowed to be off the platform.

Is this a new restriction? They certainly are off the platform at other stations. Have HSTs operated over the route before (and therefore have grandfather rights)?

Example: East Coast HST standing at Inverkeithing: https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/31/671/

 

[RLBH]

Is this a new restriction? They certainly are off the platform at other stations. Have HSTs operated over the route before (and therefore have grandfather rights)?

I believe they've operated over the route, but I don't know that they've actually called at stations. Given the nature of the refurb, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they were considered to be effectively new trains and lose their grandfather rights.

 

[bigmoose]

Managed to get my first journey on an HST today. ‘Classic’ set, very comfortable in first class, just floats along compared to a 170 and seems to be quick and always capable of going faster. No downsides other than slam doors (hello, 1970s!) and warnings not to flush the bogs in the stations. And the limited ability to carry bikes is just madness in this era. Encouraging active travel? Joining up journeys?

Overall a big upgrade from first class on the 170s. Keen to try a refurb for the full experience with full catering facilities.

Overall very good.

 

[Northhighland]

New Timetable still leaves a fir number of busy services on HML without HST. Improvement yes but why cant the get more than 11 out 18 classics on the rails at one time?

 

[najaB]

New Timetable still leaves a fir number of busy services on HML without HST. Improvement yes but why cant the get more than 11 out 18 classics on the rails at one time?

Being conservative? If a service is timetabled for a 170 and a HST turns up, everyone's happy. The other way around...

 

[hexagon789]

1A53 bore a striking resemblance to a 170 today, so I guess HA945 had taken the hump with the world at large. Intrigued to see if HA972 wants to meet me tomorrow to claim the prized crown of bigmoose’s first Scotrail HST.

Well as has been said, substitutions will unfortunately still happen for some time, but good luck with HA972.

 

[hexagon789]

thanks for this. The increase to 75 from these will be most welcome, HSTs will achieve it with ease. I suppose any improvement in journey time will be offset by the new Kintore station stop when it opens.

I'm sure that journey times were supposed to decrease to 2 hours, all stops including Kintore with the HSTs, though I forget if that was based on linespeed increases.

 

[hexagon789]

Is this a new restriction? They certainly are off the platform at other stations. Have HSTs operated over the route before (and therefore have grandfather rights)?

Example: East Coast HST standing at Inverkeithing: https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/31/671/

If you mean on Inverness-Aberdeen, I'm sure the Chieftain has run via Elgin on Sundays in the past.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The Aberdeen-Inverness line is limited to six vehicles by Elgin station

Have the platforms at Elgin not been extended recently? I know they were fairly short before the extension but I thought they could take more than 6 carriages now?

 

[Killingworth]

Have the platforms at Elgin not been extended recently? I know they were fairly short before the extension but I thought they could take more than 6 carriages now?

January 2018 picture here by John Lucas suggests that's probably correct; https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5665807

 

[InOban]

If you check back through the A2I thread, I think you will be able to confirm this.

 

[Northhighland]

Being conservative? If a service is timetabled for a 170 and a HST turns up, everyone's happy. The other way around...

Aye kinda get that, but stringing people along that jam will come tomorrow is never great strategy for managing expectations. Why not just do it?

 

[mikey9]

Inverness - Platform lengths
P1 241m outside - and the buffers are pretty much in line with the canopy
P2 241m outside Plus 50m (+- a couple of metres - will check tonight) inside so 291m
P3 121m Outside - Plus 47m inside
P4 121m outside - PLUS 47m estimated inside canopy so 168m each in total for P3 and P4

 

[RLBH]

After a bit of research, I come armed with facts. A shocking notion I know.

If you check back through the A2I thread, I think you will be able to confirm this.

Sectional appendix updated November 2017 gives Elgin's Platform 1 160m and Platform 2 161m, which is enough for a 5-car HST.

Inverness - Platform lengths
P1 241m outside - and the buffers are pretty much in line with the canopy
P2 241m outside Plus 50m (+- a couple of metres - will check tonight) inside so 291m
P3 121m Outside - Plus 47m inside
P4 121m outside - PLUS 47m estimated inside canopy so 168m each in total for P3 and P4

The 2014 Rules of the Plan (most recent I can find) give:
P1 272m
P2 305m
P3 161m
P4 164m
P5 104m
P6 105m
P7 102m

So in principle a 2+5 HST can fit into any of 1-4, and a 2+6 into 1 or 2. An HST of useful length won't go into the Far North side of the station, so I think we can rule out any dreams of HSTs on the Far North.

 

[InOban]

gregA was asking about the platform lengths at Elgin, which AIRC were the length-limiting infrastructure between Aberdeen and Inverness.

 

[RLBH]

gregA was asking about the platform lengths at Elgin, which AIRC were the length-limiting infrastructure between Aberdeen and Inverness.

It was actually me originally asking, and I've answered my own question - they have indeed been extended. As have those at Insch, which were previously only slightly longer than Elgin.

 

[mcmad]

With the stand off from the buffers, platforms 3 and 4 will be quite tight as the starting signal is at the top of the ramp.

 

[Killingworth]

So in principle a 2+5 HST can fit into any of 1-4, and a 2+6 into 1 or 2. An HST of useful length won't go into the Far North side of the station, so I think we can rule out any dreams of HSTs on the Far North.

I'm sure someone might suggest a reversal

 

[Paul Kerr]

After a bit of research, I come armed with facts. A shocking notion I know.

Sectional appendix updated November 2017 gives Platform 1 160m and Platform 2 161m, which is enough for a 5-car HST.

The 2014 Rules of the Plan (most recent I can find) give:
P1 272m
P2 305m
P3 161m
P4 164m
P5 104m
P6 105m
P7 102m

So in principle a 2+5 HST can fit into any of 1-4, and a 2+6 into 1 or 2. An HST of useful length won't go into the Far North side of the station, so I think we can rule out any dreams of HSTs on the Far North.

This is great info. Thanks for clarifying. From what has been discussed on here about passenger loadings, 2+5 is definitely the way to go so it's great that the southbound platforms at the station at Inverness can accommodate them. Trying to do it all on Platforms 1 and 2 clearly wouldn't work.

Are the sidings at Inverness long enough to stable 2+5 sets in between turns?

 

[jamieintercity]

Are 1T76 0925 Aberdeen to Glasgow and 1A93 1945 glasgow to Aberdeen booked HSTs on sunday. Travelling on sunday 7th july with my brother on 1T76 and 1A93 and curious if the these 2 trains tend to be HSTs

 

[hexagon789]

Are 1T76 0925 Aberdeen to Glasgow and 1A93 1945 glasgow to Aberdeen booked HSTs on sunday. Travelling on sunday 7th july with my brother on 1T76 and 1A93 and curious if the these 2 trains tend to be HSTs

RTT has them booked as HSTs, but I would caution that they simply might be HSTs, what with the A-I closure affecting diagramming somewhat along with everything else, all that can be said is an HST could operate them as opposed to them being 170s.

 

[FtoE]

I notice the 18:54 from Inverness to Waverley is cancelled and starting at Perth due to a “broken down train”. Was this an HST?

 

[oldman]

I notice the 18:54 from Inverness to Waverley is cancelled and starting at Perth due to a “broken down train”. Was this an HST?

Possibly this one.

I was waiting at Dunkeld for the 1747 Edinburgh (170, no reservations). It was preceded by an out of service classic which paused to pass the Chieftain and contributed to my train leaving 57 late and giving up at Perth. Fortunately the next Perth local was a 170 so not too crowded, and conveniently got me in just 61 minutes late.

Congrats to the Perth station staff who were helping with luggage transfer and the conductor on the local who explained delay repay.

 

[hexagon789]

I notice the 18:54 from Inverness to Waverley is cancelled and starting at Perth due to a “broken down train”. Was this an HST?

RTT says it was cancelled due to "a fault with the onboard safety systems"

 

[Highlandspring]

1H15 1508 Glasgow Queen Street - Inverness had to be terminated at Blair Atholl due to a problem with 43181. Due to the operation impact of this there were several resultant long delays and part cancellations for Highland Main Line services. LNER agreed to stop 1W96 1200 Kings Cross - Inverness additionally at Blair Atholl to pick up the passengers from 1H15.

 

[Northhighland]

1H15 1508 Glasgow Queen Street - Inverness had to be terminated at Blair Atholl due to a problem with 43181. Due to the operation impact of this there were several resultant long delays and part cancellations for Highland Main Line services. LNER agreed to stop 1W96 1200 Kings Cross - Inverness additionally at Blair Atholl to pick up the passengers from 1H15.

Really nice of LNER. Nice to see some focus on customer service for a change.

 

[jingsmonty]

Managed to get my first journey on an HST today. ‘Classic’ set, very comfortable in first class, just floats along compared to a 170 and seems to be quick and always capable of going faster. No downsides other than slam doors (hello, 1970s!) and warnings not to flush the bogs in the stations. And the limited ability to carry bikes is just madness in this era. Encouraging active travel? Joining up journeys?

Overall a big upgrade from first class on the 170s. Keen to try a refurb for the full experience with full catering facilities.

Overall very good.

Pretty much my experience too (although I'd mention the toilets as another '1970s' throwback on the classics too).

I think you may be waiting a while for the full catering experience (sadly) & 100% agree with you on the bike carrying situation!

As someone who gets to sit up at the 'pointy end', you're spot on with the performance - light years ahead of our usual DMUs!

 

[jingsmonty]

Really nice of LNER. Nice to see some focus on customer service for a change.

Agree. Qudos to LNER for that - would Scotrail do the same? I'd like to think so....

 

[jingsmonty]

This is great info. Thanks for clarifying. From what has been discussed on here about passenger loadings, 2+5 is definitely the way to go so it's great that the southbound platforms at the station at Inverness can accommodate them. Trying to do it all on Platforms 1 and 2 clearly wouldn't work.


Are the sidings at Inverness long enough to stable 2+5 sets in between turns?

Trust me, a 5+2 HST will most definetly NOT fit into Patforms 3 or 4 at Inverness - the leading power car would be hanging off the end of the platform, ahead of the signal. A 4+2 is fine though - the most you can fit into Platforms 3 & 4 is either 2x 170s or 3x 158s (eg, 6x 23m coach lengths).

Yes, the sidings at Inverness will take 5+2 HSTs (nos 6, 7 & 8 roads, beside the CMD were recently lengthened to take HSTs), also I've seen 2 4+2 HST sets stabled together in the Motorail siding (beside Platform 1) .

It's quite time consiming to shunt back & fore from the CMD though, but certainly possible