Rossobus

[SCH117X]

They are not removing all journeys across Burnley
"We're making your Mainline better from Sunday 1 September
30-07-2019
It's been a long time since we made any significant changes to Mainline. From 1 September, we'll be making some changes with the aim of improving our punctuality for you, which will include splitting the route at Burnley bus station.

Why are we making this change?
The investment of £4.4million in new buses for Mainline in 2017 was a huge success, however, with so many extra people now using our buses, and the increased congestion we're having to battle with, we need to take another look at how our buses are performing.

How did we decide what to do?
We took a look at our realtime and bus tracking data, and undertook extensive surveys to find out how you're using Mainline. We've taken all of your comments and suggestions on board, and created a new Mainline which we think will work better for everybody.

So what's happening?
Our research found that only 3% of people were making cross-town journeys on Mainline, with the vast majority of these taking place at school time, and the majority of those making cross-town journeys were only going one stop further than the bus station.

With this in mind, we're making Mainline between Padiham and Burnley every 10 mins Monday Saturday, combined with Hotline. On Sundays, there'll still be a bus every 15 mins between Padiham and Burnley alongside Hotline.

Our frequency will stay the same between Burnley, Nelson and Colne, with a bus every 7/8 mins Monday to Saturday, and every 15 mins on Sundays.

Most buses will no longer run as cross-town routes, instead starting and finishing in Burnley - if you're wanting to travel across town, you'll need to change buses in most cases. This will help us to run a much more reliable service - and certain buses at peak times will still run across Burnley to cater for demand, like the school journeys we mentioned above.

We'll also be renumbering our Mainline network to better reflect these changes."
http://lancashirebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=2762
which then continues in listing a new numbering for the routes
M1 Burnley to Padiham and Accrington
M2 Burnley to Padiham and Clitheroe
M3 Burnley to Nelson, Colne and Trawden
M4 Burnley to Nelson, Colne and Keighley
M5 Burnley to Nelson, Colne and Barnoldswick

 

[peterblue]

Despite not being excellent news, it makes sense and undoubtedly will make it more reliable.

I'm unsure how it's gonna be "a bus every 7/8 minutes between Colne, Nelson and Burnley", as advertised, when currently all mainline routes are every 30 minutes, combining to be more frequent on the common section of the route. It would suggest there's further timetable changes. There's also the Witchway between Colne-Burnley (but direct via the motorway, not serving Nelson) and a myriad of local routes that serve various housing estates.

 

[Andyh82]

I’ll give you, that this sort of thing is one area where the obsession with everything being ‘better’ is unnecessary.

In the past they’ve said services were being made better when they were actually reduced.

They could just say ‘service changes’

 

[158756]

Despite not being excellent news, it makes sense and undoubtedly will make it more reliable.

I'm unsure how it's gonna be "a bus every 7/8 minutes between Colne, Nelson and Burnley", as advertised, when currently all mainline routes are every 30 minutes, combining to be more frequent on the common section of the route. It would suggest there's further timetable changes. There's also the Witchway between Colne-Burnley (but direct via the motorway, not serving Nelson) and a myriad of local routes that serve various housing estates.

Presumably either one route will have short journeys to Colne or maybe the Witch Way might go back to all stops.

These changes might improve reliability, but that's achieved simply through removing the through journeys. Cutting the Padiham route, which is packed at peak times at least, wasn't necessary to improve reliability. It's what posters up the thread were accusing First of in Manchester, managing decline, (or in this case wielding the axe in response to allegedly increased patronage) - Mainline had been one of the few routes seemingly doing OK - look what's happened to the Burnley and Blackburn local routes in the last decade or so. It'll be down to every 15 or 20 minutes in a few years.

 

[peterblue]

or maybe the Witch Way might go back to all stops.

I was concerned that was what they planned. Certainly not as good as the PR makes it appear.

 

[Stan Drews]

I understand the same number of buses will be used on the revised Mainline. The buses ‘saved’ by reducing Burnley-Padiham from 7/8 to 10 mins, are effectively being used to provide the extra time required to improve the reliability of all the other parts. Much the same as many operators have been doing to counteract the ever increasing congestion.
The core 7/8min frequency between Burnley and Colne is made of 30m through services to Barnoldswick, Trawden and Keighley, plus there are ‘shorts’ that terminate at Colne every 30.

 

[Alexbus12]

What's happening with the #Amazing red express from September? Heard many complain but haven't looked/ found the chnages yet

 

[SCH117X]

I'm unsure how it's gonna be "a bus every 7/8 minutes between Colne, Nelson and Burnley", as advertised, when currently all mainline routes are every 30 minutes, combining to be more frequent on the common section of the route.

That's the same frequency as existing - Mainline Buses are timed from Burnley to Colne and Nelson at -05, -12, -20, -27, -35, -42, -50 and -57.

 

[158756]

What's happening with the #Amazing red express from September? Heard many complain but haven't looked/ found the chnages yet

Rumour is it's reducing to hourly. They're giving up basically. Two years ago it went to Blackburn as well, was 15 minutes faster from Accrington, there was the 484 between Accrington and Ramsbottom . People said at the time the Ramsbottom diversion was a mistake. #Amazing. The only thing Transdev are good at is cuts.

 

[Andyh82]

You should be happy as reducing services is like other operators who you prefer operate?

Rumour is it's reducing to hourly. They're giving up basically. Two years ago it went to Blackburn as well, was 15 minutes faster from Accrington, there was the 484 between Accrington and Ramsbottom . People said at the time the Ramsbottom diversion was a mistake. #Amazing. The only thing Transdev are good at is cuts.

Or there weren’t enough passengers on the old route so they diverted it via Ramsbottom to increase the number of potential passengers?

 

[peterblue]

Transdev aren't perfect, and sure, their obsession with over-marketing themselves can irritate especially when the news isn't positive.

But I think despite that they do a lot right. They've achieved growth areas when most other operators are have bigger losses every year.

In terms of the UK bus scene as a whole Transdev are above average, and there's certainly far, far worse than Transdev.

 

[AJW12]

I'm looking at the changes to Mainline now... I can't see that as a reduction in terms of frequency, or a massive cut. Naturally it is going to be annoying for the 3% of people who do use the cross-city routes. But traffic all over the north now is becoming worse and cross-city routes almost always results in buses bunching and racking up lateness, so I guess this will help reliability.

But it isn't really an improvement, is it. It's a change that will see some routes curtailed, there's no real way to interpret it as an amazing improvement.

It will be interesting to see how the reaction is to this - cross-city routes are more unreliable but they do provide people with limited mobility with a 'door to door' service and they can really kick up a fuss when that's removed for them. I remember in York, when Service 6 from Tang Hall to the Hospital was 'split' - they curtailed the service in York City centre, and replaced the Tang Hall - city bit with another service. The net result was frequency increases to every 10 minutes for both routes (from every 12) 'due to demand'. However, Winnefred and Elsie who use the bus from somewhere East of the centre to the Hospital kicked up a fuss about having to walk 25 metres up the road to change buses - they only accounted for a tiny number of the passengers but it was enough for First to reverse those changes only a couple of months later. Net result = frequency down to every 15 minutes. So it went from 5bph, to 6bph, to 4bph. I wonder if this will happen here too and before long there's a local press story about 'pensioners punished by bus cuts'....

Re. the overall debate though - there's some harshness on both sides but ultimately, Transdev is a company ran by people who have a very close eye on PR. I don't like the fact that they do disguise fare increases or journey reductions as 'improvements' or 'simpler fares', but actually, it's not just Transdev who does it nowadays. First have recently started doing the same - in York I've seen them 'improve' services between the City and Uni (basically by reducing the frequency yet again, on an already chronically overcrowded corridor), and 'simplify' fares - by putting them up. But Transdev are just trying to keep things looking positive, and it's no different to what most businesses in every other sector do. The only difference is Transdev have no choice but to announce any changes. Any other company would just push anything negative out very quietly.

I think the problem with some of the views on branding in this thread is that it's very easy to see all of this from an enthusiasts' point of view, seeing the city's network as a whole. For most of the routes which Transdev has recently brought branding to, it's aimed at people who live on the route, to use their bus rather than take the car / alternative. Take the 'TottingtonLine' for example. If you live on that route, you're almost definitely not going to care about any route other than the one that comes closest to your house. That's why they introduce branding, to make buses look more attractive, increase their presence and ultimately make more people consider using them. I think people really underestimate the fact that great numbers of people in these areas who live near a bus route don't even consider using it. Branding increases visual presence and is designed to change that. They are taking note of the fact their existing branding and publicity around their more flagship routes (Coastliner, 36, Witchway - ones which do take people from home to town but also take people on 'day out' routes) works and has increased passenger numbers.

And let's be honest... First had/has for way, way too long not given a toss about making their services look appealing. Their 'it's a bus, if you can't drive you have no other option than our bus' meant unappealing exteriors, repulsive interiors and an overall service you couldn't make more unattractive if you tried.

 

[158756]

But I think despite that they do a lot right. They've achieved growth areas when most other operators are have bigger losses every year.

West of the Pennines, what are the success stories?

 

[peterblue]

West of the Pennines, what are the success stories?

Lakeline has done rather well, certainly in my experiences at least.

 

[Andyh82]

I’m sure said 3% will be running to the local paper, as they’ll no longer be able to make that all important journey in one go. There will be a picture of some pensioners stood next to a bus stop in Colne or Padiham looking annoyed.

All bus companies have the issue of having to throw more resources at a service to maintain the current frequency due to increased congestion, with no additional revenue coming in. This obviously reduces the viability of the route even on a route that is well patronised.

 

[Alexbus12]

I hear Lakeline has done rather well.

Thats because First reduced and reduced the frequency of their competitive route. No new passengers really..

 

[tbtc]

I’m sure said 3% will be running to the local paper, as they’ll no longer be able to make that all important journey in one go. There will be a picture of some pensioners stood next to a bus stop in Colne or Padiham looking annoyed.

All bus companies have the issue of having to throw more resources at a service to maintain the current frequency due to increased congestion, with no additional revenue coming in. This obviously reduces the viability of the route even on a route that is well patronised.

Agreed - it's a bit like the complaints on the "rail" side of the Forums where the tiny number of people doing an occasional long distance journey (or at least wanting the ability to make a long distance journey, even if they don't do so) are quite vocal compared to the number doing shorter journeys regularly (e.g. the small number of people wanting to do Liverpool - Norwich once a year compared to the daily commuters from Manchester to Sheffield) - plus it's always easier to find someone upset about their current direct service being threatened with a cut (but a lot harder to find people today who will benefit from future changes).

As for the criticism of Transdev on here for the way that they promote route changes/ fare changes... it's not just a transport thing, it's every company nowadays - no firm ever has price rises any more, they have "revised" prices, they have "Streamlined" opening hours, your local Bank branch closes "in line with changing customer demand" etc. It's pure spin, of course, but it seems a bit unfair to single out one transport company for this.

 

[Stan Drews]

As for the criticism of Transdev on here for the way that they promote route changes/ fare changes... it's not just a transport thing, it's every company nowadays - no firm ever has price rises any more, they have "revised" prices, they have "Streamlined" opening hours, your local Bank branch closes "in line with changing customer demand" etc. It's pure spin, of course, but it seems a bit unfair to single out one transport company for this.

But some people just can’t grasp that some bus companies actually understand this, and are trying their best to promote their services in ways that almost any other industry would.
I’d be interested to hear from the ‘haters’, when they last saw Tesco/Asda/Morrison’s etc advertising the fact that the price of anything they sell was increasing?

 

[Alexbus12]

My comments have been deleted, I may have lost this battle, but I will win the war!

Edit- this is meant to be amusing, before someone reports me

 

[RustySpoons]

I'm surprised there are only 3% making cross-Burnley journeys. As with all stats though, this surprisingly low number could mean anything. Was it 3% of people they asked on the bus on a particular day, 3% of people who filled out the online survey, 3% of ENCTS pass users, 3% of single fare paying passengers... Who knows. Either way, it's happening. Not ideal for me personally as the few journeys I made on the Mainline were through Burnley, and having to buy two single fares would make an expensive bus journey even more expensive.

And this is where Transdev did well, they announced their intentions a few months ago with regards to these potential changes, and they did put a few posts out on social media asking for peoples opinions. Yet you can guarantee that the same people who saw those posts on social media and didn't say anything will be complaining come September. You could say that the changes were coming regardless, but even so, if you didn't bother to voice your opinion you can't really complain at the outcome.

Rumour is it's reducing to hourly. They're giving up basically. Two years ago it went to Blackburn as well, was 15 minutes faster from Accrington, there was the 484 between Accrington and Ramsbottom . People said at the time the Ramsbottom diversion was a mistake. #Amazing. The only thing Transdev are good at is cuts.

The 484/X41 debacle is a complete mess. Not many people were happy about the changes to two already relatively successful services, and now they've been effectively ruined - X41 is reducing to hourly off peak, 484/Red4 struggling. The X41 was diverted through Rammy to give passengers a direct link to Manchester, but at the same time ruined the service for Accrington passengers by increasing journey times and taking away the direct Blackburn to Accrington link, forcing passengers onto the slower Hyndburn Circular (or whatever they call it nowadays) with no alternative.

The 484 rebrand using the high spec ex-MancZap B7s was also a waste. It was a well used service from Accrington to Bury, but by improving it (by removing it) they ruined it. I get that they were trying to poach passengers from First, but for a 20 minute shuttle bus between Ramsbottom and Bury no one will be bothered about leather seats or USB chargers. And as it's apparently being reduced to hourly they've effectively killed what was once a great service.

When Transdev do good, they're good - I wouldn't call it amazing, I think pre-Transdev Blazefield in their prime were genuinely amazing in making changes in the industry. When Transdev don't do good, they're pretty terrible.

 

[Alexbus12]

.

The 484 rebrand using the high spec ex-MancZap B7s was also a waste. It was a well used service from Accrington to Bury, but by improving it (by removing it) they ruined it. I get that they were trying to poach passengers from First, but for a 20 minute shuttle bus between Ramsbottom and Bury no one will be bothered about leather seats or USB chargers. And as it's apparently being reduced to hourly they've effectively killed what was once a great service.

I spoke with a friend who works for First Bolton a couple of weeks ago about this, and he says the First services (very bogg standard) always do better than the Transdev service along that corridor. It's not uncommon for First trips to have standing loads he said. Presume this is the 472/4 he was on about..

 

[RustySpoons]

I spoke with a friend who works for First Bolton a couple of weeks ago about this, and he says the First services (very bogg standard) always do better than the Transdev service along that corridor. It's not uncommon for First trips to have standing loads he said. Presume this is the 472/4 he was on about..

I got called all sorts of names from one of the Transdev-can-do-no-wrong fanboys (who doesn't even live anywhere near a Transdev operating area) when I suggested that using 'luxury' buses on a short competing service is a waste of time. Apparently First would have been off the route in 6 months because 'Transdev would blow them out of the water'. Right then.

 

[158756]

I'm surprised there are only 3% making cross-Burnley journeys. As with all stats though, this surprisingly low number could mean anything. Was it 3% of people they asked on the bus on a particular day, 3% of people who filled out the online survey, 3% of ENCTS pass users, 3% of single fare paying passengers... Who knows. Either way, it's happening. Not ideal for me personally as the few journeys I made on the Mainline were through Burnley, and having to buy two single fares would make an expensive bus journey even more expensive.

In my limited experience most passengers do get off at the bus station or outside M&S. Padiham, Nelson and Colne don't have anything Burnley doesn't, the hospital is only accessible from the Mainline route for reasonably fit people. (The hospital incidentally is another example of the decline in local buses - it was once server every 7/8 minutes, and I'm sure Rosso served it as well, now there are two routes with uncoordinated 20 and 30 minutes frequencies. The blame for this lies mostly with the last Labour government rather than Transdev though)

And this is where Transdev did well, they announced their intentions a few months ago with regards to these potential changes, and they did put a few posts out on social media asking for peoples opinions. Yet you can guarantee that the same people who saw those posts on social media and didn't say anything will be complaining come September. You could say that the changes were coming regardless, but even so, if you didn't bother to voice your opinion you can't really complain at the outcome.

I live locally, occasionally use the bus and have relatives who use the bus frequently, but this is the first I've heard of the cuts. I will say that if increasing passenger numbers won't persuade them not to make cuts I don't think any consultation responses would have made any difference.

I got called all sorts of names from one of the Transdev-can-do-no-wrong fanboys (who doesn't even live anywhere near a Transdev operating area) when I suggested that using 'luxury' buses on a short competing service is a waste of time. Apparently First would have been off the route in 6 months because 'Transdev would blow them out of the water'. Right then.

They might have a better chance on this route now if the bits of the former First empire end ticket acceptance with each other or Rotala is anything like the West Midlands. The people of Ramsbottom and their MP will be cheesed off with the X41 situation though.

 

[RustySpoons]

In my limited experience most passengers do get off at the bus station or outside M&S. Padiham, Nelson and Colne don't have anything Burnley doesn't, the hospital is only accessible from the Mainline route for reasonably fit people. (The hospital incidentally is another example of the decline in local buses - it was once server every 7/8 minutes, and I'm sure Rosso served it as well, now there are two routes with uncoordinated 20 and 30 minutes frequencies. The blame for this lies mostly with the last Labour government rather than Transdev though).

Funny you should mention this, I've got an old timetable from the mid-2000s for Burnley & Pendle's then extensive town services. It included a section on buses that served the hospital, there was one literally every 4 or 5 minutes most of the day. And that was just B&P, Tyrer Bus at the time also ran a regular service that served the hospital grounds too, as well as Northern Blue who also ran a few services past the hospital.

EDIT -- edited to add a picture of the timetable. Almost right with the frequencies - still 11 buses an hour most of they day just with B&P!

 

[158756]

That's even worse than I thought! Every 10 minutes to Rosegrove.... I don't remember the 12A, where did that start?

 

[RustySpoons]

That's even worse than I thought! Every 10 minutes to Rosegrove.... I don't remember the 12A, where did that start?

The 12A was basically the same as the 12, but instead of terminating at Harle Syke it continued up to Haggate Crossroads, then turned left and down into Nelson. I think it only ran as far as Burnley though, don't think it went as far as Rosegrove, but ran in addition to the 10 minute frequency on the 12.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I spoke with a friend who works for First Bolton a couple of weeks ago about this, and he says the First services (very bogg standard) always do better than the Transdev service along that corridor. It's not uncommon for First trips to have standing loads he said. Presume this is the 472/4 he was on about..

I take it you have not heard about the current situation of First in Bolton, despite what was said to you a couple of weeks ago. One matter that I discussed with three of their drivers just a couple of days ago is that there seems to be a bone of contention is the "Vantage" fleet on the Guided Busway routes that is based in Bolton is still not part of the sale of the First operations in Bolton to Rotala, but the idea of relocating to the Rusholme depot is very unpopular with the drivers, as most of them are resident in the Bolton area.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Crikey - this thread has got very emotive. All we need is for Lothian to register some services in Lancashire and we'll be well away

First of all, I agree with the general sentiment that the press release is a bit disingenuous. As per some poster's observations, they don't need to go all "sackcloth and ashes" - you don't see that with retailers and manufacturers. I'm all for operators being positive about what they do, and promoting their business. However, it is stretching credibility to suggest that it's all good news as that press release suggests. As I've said before, I do find the Hornby self promotion all a bit cloying, and when you have to make sensible, understandable decisions like disconnecting the two halves or saving some resources on the Padiham end, just play a straight bat.

As it is and given the way that traffic congestion is affecting all operators, such moves as chopping the Mainline in half makes sense. I don't doubt the 3% as a true figure either - a friend who was a Transdev manager (pre Hornby) said they didn't have much cross town traffic when I queried the routeing. They also explained the issue of Transdev/Caisse de Depots leasing vehicles - not a UK decision and hence why they have a disjointed fleet profile, and how Transdev had massively improved the 1 from Blackburn to Bolton with attendant increases in patronage (a West of the Pennines success story??) AND that the local services were suffering because of the general economic malaise. As I said, this was pre Hornby but the issue of the intensely local, secondary routes was being felt then and it's perhaps no surprise that they continue to decline. To be honest, you can pick out any smaller northern town (South Shields, Doncaster, Rotherham) on the bones of it's a**e and see how it's those services that are suffering most with collapsing high street footfall and a reliance on ENCTS.

For some of the other criticisms made, the Red4 was clearly just to find a home for the CityZap Volvos. Said it at the time that the CityZap to Manchester was baffling in terms of what the market they hoped to exploit. In that respect, they had to find a home for them and yes, the luxury seats and USB was hardly likely to create some fantastic competitive advantage on a local route with a short average journey. The Red Express X41 is an interesting one as it has often had a chequered existence and has often been a bit marginal? Was it part of the old X1 from Clitheroe? Been a long while since I travelled on it but I'm wondering if it's one of those routes that it's difficult to get the mix of speed and hitting the population centres? Too few passengers to support a fast limited stop but put in stops and the timings become unattractive - seen it before and wonder if this is one of those routes that falls between the two stools.

Finally, can we please stop the "Amazing" and "Lord Hornby" comments? I don't like the unstintingly positive spin from Transdev and the personal promotion of Alex Hornby. However, such comments on this thread come across as a bit childish and doesn't add anything to what should be a reasoned and mature discussion.

 

[Alexbus12]

I take it you have not heard about the current situation of First in Bolton, despite what was said to you a couple of weeks ago. One matter that I discussed with three of their drivers just a couple of days ago is that there seems to be a bone of contention is the "Vantage" fleet on the Guided Busway routes that is based in Bolton is still not part of the sale of the First operations in Bolton to Rotala, but the idea of relocating to the Rusholme depot is very unpopular with the drivers, as most of them are resident in the Bolton area.

I'm very well aware of the current situation at Bolton, so much so, living there and using the buses every day... If you ever look at complaints on social media etc, First Bolton quite rarely drop boards on the 472/4 but instead will drop them on much busier routes ie the 8, 471, 163 etc etc.. Whether this is because of the competition who knows..

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For some of the other criticisms made, the Red4 was clearly just to find a home for the CityZap Volvos. Said it at the time that the CityZap to Manchester was baffling in terms of what the market they hoped to exploit. In that respect, they had to find a home for them and yes, the luxury seats and USB was hardly likely to create some fantastic competitive advantage on a local route with a short average journey. The Red Express X41 is an interesting one as it has often had a chequered existence and has often been a bit marginal? Was it part of the old X1 from Clitheroe? Been a long while since I travelled on it but I'm wondering if it's one of those routes that it's difficult to get the mix of speed and hitting the population centres? Too few passengers to support a fast limited stop but put in stops and the timings become unattractive - seen it before and wonder if this is one of those routes that falls between the two stools.

The 1994 reopening of the four railway stations from Clitheroe to Blackburn and subsequent direct rail services from Clitheroe to Manchester seem to cater for the travellers these days.