Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[LOL The Irony]

Slightly off topic..we'd love the 319s back down south to replace the southern 313s

We'll all personally gift wrap them for you. I can't wait to see them go.

 

[prod_pep]

Just my humble opinion but I'd take the Southern 313s over the 319s any day. Better interiors and much better acceleration. I dare say the 319s would struggle to keep to 313/377 times.

Back on topic, it's a pleasant surprise to hear Northern plans to take on all the WMT 323s. Without platform lengthening, there doesn't appear to be enough work for them. Hopefully the Alderley Edge service goes back to EMUs following timetable revisions.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Back on topic, it's a pleasant surprise to hear Northern plans to take on all the WMT 323s. Without platform lengthening, there doesn't appear to be enough work for them. Hopefully the Alderley Edge service goes back to EMUs following timetable revisions.

Couldn't they double up on Manchester - Crewe stoppers without platform lengthening or SDO?

 

[Bovverboy]

Hopefully the Alderley Edge service goes back to EMUs following timetable revisions.

Assuming there continues to be an hourly service Wigan - Atherton or Bolton - Manchester Piccadilly service, as there is now, and it continues to be DMU-operated, which it will (since the route isn't fully wired), what do you suggest should happen to the service after it reaches Piccadilly?

 

[prod_pep]

Assuming there continues to be an hourly service Wigan - Atherton or Bolton - Manchester Piccadilly service, as there is now, and it continues to be DMU-operated, which it will (since the route isn't fully wired), what do you suggest should happen to the service after it reaches Piccadilly?

Alderley Edge could be swapped with a DMU service which currently turns back at Piccadilly. Didn't Manchester - Buxton used to be a through service?

 

[Bovverboy]

Alderley Edge could be swapped with a DMU service which currently turns back at Piccadilly. Didn't Manchester - Buxton used to be a through service?

I can't help but think that there is some impediment to running trains from the west of Manchester through to Buxton, or for that matter, Chester, or it would be happening now. Passengers for those services wouldn't be too pleased at having to traipse to P13, for instance, but that could be said about passengers for Alderley Edge. The latter do, though, have an alternative service which goes from the main concourse.
As to Buxton being a through service, in recent years it's only been such at peak times, but I don't know what prevailed prior to that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Back on topic, it's a pleasant surprise to hear Northern plans to take on all the WMT 323s. Without platform lengthening, there doesn't appear to be enough work for them. Hopefully the Alderley Edge service goes back to EMUs following timetable revisions.

If the Mancs and Scousers can't find work for them all, we'll happily bring them home to West Yorkshire!

 

[jonesy3001]

If the Mancs and Scousers can't find work for them all, we'll happily bring them home to West Yorkshire!

You've got the new 331s operating around WY with all the soon to be refurbished 333s.

Rail magazine are also running the story about the 323s.

https://t.co/u2FBnRB2mu?amp=1

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You've got the new 331s operating around WY with all the soon to be refurbished 333s.

Rail magazine are also running the story about the 323s.

https://t.co/u2FBnRB2mu?amp=1

323 > 331, swapsies?

 

[notlob.divad]

Modern Railways’ website is now reporting, (in an article published today 15th), that all 323s are definitely staying with or going to Northern:

Have been expecting this announcement for a while. Just surprised it has taken so long to become formalised.

You've got the new 331s operating around WY with all the soon to be refurbished 333s.

Rail magazine are also running the story about the 323s.

https://t.co/u2FBnRB2mu?amp=1

As expected that seems to indicate Porterbrook want all the 319s to convert to 769s. So even though none have run on the mainline yet, they still seem to have confidence in the project. I wonder how long it is before they announce 769s will be taken on as replacements for the 150s.

 

[jonesy3001]

Have been expecting this announcement for a while. Just surprised it has taken so long to become formalised.


As expected that seems to indicate Porterbrook want all the 319s to convert to 769s. So even though none have run on the mainline yet, they still seem to have confidence in the project. I wonder how long it is before they announce 769s will be taken on as replacements for the 150s.

Probably get more 195s or 331s by the time the 769s hit the rails, flex project is a dead duck in my opinion.

 

[Mollman]

I can't help but think that there is some impediment to running trains from the west of Manchester through to Buxton, or for that matter, Chester, or it would be happening now. Passengers for those services wouldn't be too pleased at having to traipse to P13, for instance, but that could be said about passengers for Alderley Edge. The latter do, though, have an alternative service which goes from the main concourse.
As to Buxton being a through service, in recent years it's only been such at peak times, but I don't know what prevailed prior to that.

There used to be an hourly Blackpool N - Buxton services but it proved too unreliable.

 

[Bovverboy]

Back on topic, it's a pleasant surprise to hear Northern plans to take on all the WMT 323s. Without platform lengthening, there doesn't appear to be enough work for them.

I don't think there's enough work for them, full stop. When the 331s were ordered, the intention was that Northern's 319s were going to be kept, and the 323s were going to go. So 27x319 are now going to go, and 43x323 are going to be kept/acquired instead. Sixteen is a lot of extra EMUs, and, as for running more trains than it really needs, well that isn't Northern's strategy at all.
It could be said that a 323 is a smaller train than a 319, well yes it is, but not by very much, a 319 is 4x20m carriages, and a 323 is 3x23m. Where 323s have partially replaced 319s (i.e. on Chat Moss stoppers), they have replaced them one for one without any obvious problems - although one or two journeys are uncomfortably oversubscribed, but, even then, probably no more so than on most other routes at peak times. What overcrowding there is, could, I feel, be countered by timetable tweaks.

 

[NoMorePacers]

There is one route in the North West where 323s would be perfect, but unfortunately that requires extra infrastructure.

 

[Bovverboy]

There is one route in the North West where 323s would be perfect, but unfortunately that requires extra infrastructure.

Windermere?

 

[NoMorePacers]

Windermere?

Nope, their traits wouldn't really be needed for Windermere. I was thinking more along the lines of the CLC.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If it was down to me, the full fleet of 323s (with the odd double up on suitable routes - although I'm guessing there isn't many!) would be supplemented by the 30 Renatus 321s. The 321s could be used on the Blackpool North services (8 car particularly) as well as some more limited stop trains in the North West. No need for 331s to operate on the Hadfield & Glossop, in my opinion; nor for them to work in and around Blackpool. They can be better used on the premier stuff.

 

[Greybeard33]

Couldn't they double up on Manchester - Crewe stoppers without platform lengthening or SDO?

I believe Chelford Down and Alderley Edge Up are both too short for 6-cars. Plus several platforms on the Styal line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I believe Chelford Down and Alderley Edge Up are both too short for 6-cars. Plus several platforms on the Styal line.

Were the station platforms at Mauldeth Road, Burnage and Gatley when rebuilt some years ago with new style construction, all the same length?

 

[Greybeard33]

I don't think there's enough work for them, full stop. When the 331s were ordered, the intention was that Northern's 319s were going to be kept, and the 323s were going to go. So 27x319 are now going to go, and 43x323 are going to be kept/acquired instead. Sixteen is a lot of extra EMUs, and, as for running more trains than it really needs, well that isn't Northern's strategy at all.
It could be said that a 323 is a smaller train than a 319, well yes it is, but not by very much, a 319 is 4x20m carriages, and a 323 is 3x23m. Where 323s have partially replaced 319s (i.e. on Chat Moss stoppers), they have replaced them one for one without any obvious problems - although one or two journeys are uncomfortably oversubscribed, but, even then, probably no more so than on most other routes at peak times. What overcrowding there is, could, I feel, be countered by timetable tweaks.

There are also the 31x331/0s yet to enter traffic in the North West, which will take over some of the routes currently worked by the 319s and 323s. The rolling stock plan in the franchise agreement was to keep only 27x319s, of which 8 are now being converted to 769s. So the 43x323s are effectively replacing only 19x319s, unless future electrification enables them to take over the 769 diagrams too.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Chelford Down, Alderley Edge Up, Gatley (all), East Didsbury (all) and Mauldeth Road Down are no good for 6x23m.

Longport Down, Kidsgrove Up, Prestbury Down, Cheadle Down (Stoke) also not good.

On the Hadfield / Glossop, only Hattersley, Guide Bridge, Gorton and Glossop can handle 6x23m.

 

[43096]

Have been expecting this announcement for a while. Just surprised it has taken so long to become formalised.


As expected that seems to indicate Porterbrook want all the 319s to convert to 769s. So even though none have run on the mainline yet, they still seem to have confidence in the project. I wonder how long it is before they announce 769s will be taken on as replacements for the 150s.

There is also the issue that Porterbrook have invested recently in traction re-engineering for the 323s with Alstom IGBT kit replacing the original Holec GTOs. The 319s, being older, will be substantially more financially written down than the 323s.

 

[geoffk]

Chelford Down, Alderley Edge Up, Gatley (all), East Didsbury (all) and Mauldeth Road Down are no good for 6x23m.

Longport Down, Kidsgrove Up, Prestbury Down, Cheadle Down (Stoke) also not good.

On the Hadfield / Glossop, only Hattersley, Guide Bridge, Gorton and Glossop can handle 6x23m.

How many stations on the Bolton/Blackpool route will take 6x23m? Obviously Bolton, Preston and Blackpool North, but any others?

 

[AMD]

flex project is a dead duck in my opinion.

While 769s aren't the subject of this thread, this duck will arise again in a few weeks time....

 

[4-SUB 4732]

How many stations on the Bolton/Blackpool route will take 6x23m? Obviously Bolton, Preston and Blackpool North, but any others?

For starters, Manchester Oxford Road doesn't allow it in Platform 1 (towards Preston), nor does Platform 3 (towards Manchester). That level of restriction is far too great at a place that requires flexibility.

Kearsley, Farnworth, Moses Gate, Blackrod, Adlington and Leyland are also no go; as are Salwick or Leyton (up only).

 

[Geeves]

How many stations on the Bolton/Blackpool route will take 6x23m? Obviously Bolton, Preston and Blackpool North, but any others?

Salford Crescent, Bolton, Lostock, Horwich PW, Chorley and Buckshaw PW can all take six cars. Not too sure about Blackrod and Adlington.

 

[Tynwald]

Class 319 are quite dated now. With DC traction motors, they will be expensive to maintain. They also have aged traction electronics as per class 91. Spares will be difficult and expensive to get. 323 have AC traction motors, and had new traction converter units fitted recently. Total no brainer realy.

 

[_toommm_]

Chelford Down, Alderley Edge Up, Gatley (all), East Didsbury (all) and Mauldeth Road Down are no good for 6x23m.

Longport Down, Kidsgrove Up, Prestbury Down, Cheadle Down (Stoke) also not good.

On the Hadfield / Glossop, only Hattersley, Guide Bridge, Gorton and Glossop can handle 6x23m.

The shortest platforms on the Glossop line (Flowery Field and one other) have just been extended to 4 carriage length, so they could either retrofit ASDO/SDO, or lock out doors as and when needed like TPE do with Dore and Totley.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I believe Chelford Down and Alderley Edge Up are both too short for 6-cars. Plus several platforms on the Styal line.

There's 2 TPH and one is via the Airport and continues to Liverpool so just put them on the direct via Stockport and lengthen the Chelford Down & Alderley Edge up.

 

[6026KingJohn]

I don't think there's enough work for them, full stop. When the 331s were ordered, the intention was that Northern's 319s were going to be kept, and the 323s were going to go. So 27x319 are now going to go, and 43x323 are going to be kept/acquired instead. Sixteen is a lot of extra EMUs, and, as for running more trains than it really needs, well that isn't Northern's strategy at all.
It could be said that a 323 is a smaller train than a 319, well yes it is, but not by very much, a 319 is 4x20m carriages, and a 323 is 3x23m. Where 323s have partially replaced 319s (i.e. on Chat Moss stoppers), they have replaced them one for one without any obvious problems - although one or two journeys are uncomfortably oversubscribed, but, even then, probably no more so than on most other routes at peak times. What overcrowding there is, could, I feel, be countered by timetable tweaks.

As far as seats are concerned, a 319 has 300 seats, a 323 has 284, so not much difference.
They were originally designed for the Cross City line in the West Midlands with good acceleration between closely spaced stations - anything like that on Northern that would be suitable?