EC Scottish trains plans

[Invincibles]

Can HST Mk3 be loco hauled in a simple enough way, generator coach or whatever?

My reasoning is that if all HST operations were moved to Cross Country then presumably they would not need to be as long as they are under East Coast where extra pick up at Edinburgh, Newcastle, York etc needs the longer train. If they were shortened to lengths more suitable for Cross Country (say 7 car) then that would free some carriages to form a loco hauled set that could be used on the Highland line (giving a longer train at the same times as the current Chieftain perhaps) The extra capacity that could then create through the Cross Country core could be really useful if it worked well.

 

[sprinterguy]

Can HST Mk3 be loco hauled in a simple enough way, generator coach or whatever?

My reasoning is that if all HST operations were moved to Cross Country then presumably they would not need to be as long as they are under East Coast where extra pick up at Edinburgh, Newcastle, York etc needs the longer train. If they were shortened to lengths more suitable for Cross Country (say 7 car) then that would free some carriages to form a loco hauled set that could be used on the Highland line (giving a longer train at the same times as the current Chieftain perhaps) The extra capacity that could then create through the Cross Country core could be really useful if it worked well.

There was a loco hauled HST carriage rake used on the Western Region in 1979/80 during a period of power car shortages: This used a generator coach to provide train supply, so yes it is reasonably easy to do: Said generator coach is now in use with Riviera Trains powering standard mark 2s, so I suspect that a new generator coach would have to be converted for use with a loco hauled HST rake.

It would also be possible to re-engineer the spare HST coaches to loco hauled mark 3 specifications if the rake was to be used for a reasonable length of time.

 

[4SRKT]

There was a loco hauled HST carriage rake used on the Western Region in 1979/80 during a period of power car shortages: This used a generator coach to provide train supply, so yes it is reasonably easy to do: Said generator coach is now in use with Riviera Trains powering standard mark 2s, so I suspect that a new generator coach would have to be converted for use with a loco hauled HST rake.

It would also be possible to re-engineer the spare HST coaches to loco hauled mark 3 specifications if the rake was to be used for a reasonable length of time.

Or buy some second hand mk IIIs on sale from Irish Rail and regauge 'em.

 

[LE Greys]

DONT DARE TAKE AWAY OUR CHEIFTAIN

agreed

+1

Hear! Hear!

+2

There was a loco hauled HST carriage rake used on the Western Region in 1979/80 during a period of power car shortages: This used a generator coach to provide train supply, so yes it is reasonably easy to do: Said generator coach is now in use with Riviera Trains powering standard mark 2s, so I suspect that a new generator coach would have to be converted for use with a loco hauled HST rake.

It would also be possible to re-engineer the spare HST coaches to loco hauled mark 3 specifications if the rake was to be used for a reasonable length of time.

Been done the other way for XC, so I'm sure it's possible. You would need to do a complete rewire, replace the jumpers with TDM ones and add buffers (not sure about replacing the coupler with a drophead). A MkIII DVT (of which there are quite a few spares) would make an excellent generator coach, especially if it could MU with whatever's on the other end of the train.

 

[TrainBrain185]

I am hoping that the Government will be long sighted and grant the funding for the high speed East Coast IEP Project and Hitachi will choose Newton Aycliffe, County Durham as the location for Rolling Stock Manufacture and Maintenance on behalf of the ECML.

 

[Lampshade]

Or buy some second hand mk IIIs on sale from Irish Rail and regauge 'em.

My sense of national pride plummets when someone suggests this. It really does say something about the state of our railways and indeed the country when people are suggesting buying back old stock from the Irish as a viable option :-x

 

[route:oxford]

Ok, so if the wires go as far as Perth (which they really should do), despite plans to halt at Dunblane...

What unit would be suitable to haul a Pendolino or M4+DVT from Perth* to Inverness?

Would 2 37s be suitable?

*Or Dunblane, seeing as there is still a siding there where a loco could be stabled.

 

[MCR247]

My sense of national pride plummets when someone suggests this. It really does say something about the state of our railways and indeed the country when people are suggesting buying back old stock from the Irish as a viable option :-x

I agree, also by the way, RE your sig; if you have been on a 377 you have travelled on Southern or First Captial Connect

 

[tbtc]

Ok, so if the wires go as far as Perth (which they really should do), despite plans to halt at Dunblane...

Why?

Hardly anything from Stirling terminates at Perth (the only trains that terminate at Perth in the daytime are from Edinburgh via Ladybank)

Either wire to Dunblane (and Alloa) or do it to Aberdeen/ Inverness. Wiring Dunblane - Perth makes about as much sense as terminating at Gleneagles.

I'm not against electrification, but if there are better 25 mile stretches to wire up (unless you're going to extend the services beyond Dunblane or wire all the way to Aberdeen)

 

[Skimble19]

I am hoping that the Government will be long sighted and grant the funding for the high speed East Coast IEP Project and Hitachi will choose Newton Aycliffe, County Durham as the location for Rolling Stock Manufacture and Maintenance on behalf of the ECML.

What on earth for!? Oh wait, I just saw your location... :roll:

 

[ainsworth74]

What on earth for!?

Why not? Is it any worse location than the other proposed ones?

 

[LE Greys]

Why?

Hardly anything from Stirling terminates at Perth (the only trains that terminate at Perth in the daytime are from Edinburgh via Ladybank)

Either wire to Dunblane (and Alloa) or do it to Aberdeen/ Inverness. Wiring Dunblane - Perth makes about as much sense as terminating at Gleneagles.

I'm not against electrification, but if there are better 25 mile stretches to wire up (unless you're going to extend the services beyond Dunblane or wire all the way to Aberdeen)

Just realised I answered this one on another thread.

Still, Perth would be a useful step on the way, but I would hold off at Dunblane until Fife gets done, then go on to Aberdeen and Dyce. Inverness probably won't ever be electrified, the Highland Line simply does not have an intensive-enough service. If they did so, they would need Swiss-style cantenry to cope with the winters up there.

It's probably more important to ensure that the system is connected to the North Clyde and West Coast systems, and to electrify through Cumbernauld and Falkirk Grahamston to provide diversionary routes and operational flexibility. Aberdeen can wait, at least until the suburban network is done properly.

 

[Bittern]

I think there are certain lines that won't ever see Electrification. The West Highland Line comes to mind.

I'd also like to think there won't be wires to Inverness simply because the Highland Main Line passes through some incredible scenery, and I personally find it harder to enjoy such views if there's giant metal poles in the way!

 

[Skimble19]

Why not? Is it any worse location than the other proposed ones?

Was on about IEP itself, not the location

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh well in that case I'm in full agreement with your sentiments

 

[krus_aragon]

What unit would be suitable to haul a Pendolino or M4+DVT from Perth* to Inverness?

Would 2 37s be suitable?

In North Wales we use a dellner-fitted 57 to drag pendolinos about.

 

[38Cto15E]

I travelled on the Chieftain from PBO to INV a few weeks ago, awesome train and we only stopped at York and Newcastle before reaching Waverly.

In first class it was a nice atmosphere, mostly leisure customers and none of the usual business conversations, phone calls etc. On my return on a EDB-KX a business lady was on her mobile from just north of York till about Retford.:mad:

The food was very good as well, but I took my own bottle of Red wine

Keep the Inverness and Aberdeen HSTs, that's what I say

 

[route:oxford]

Why?

Hardly anything from Stirling terminates at Perth (the only trains that terminate at Perth in the daytime are from Edinburgh via Ladybank)

Either wire to Dunblane (and Alloa) or do it to Aberdeen/ Inverness. Wiring Dunblane - Perth makes about as much sense as terminating at Gleneagles.

I'm not against electrification, but if there are better 25 mile stretches to wire up (unless you're going to extend the services beyond Dunblane or wire all the way to Aberdeen)

Well, a few of the late evening and early morning services start at Perth...

My main logic is that there would be greater opportunities to re-open or enhance stations between Perth & Dunblane if the line were to be electrified. Blackford is mentioned from time-to-time, as is Greenloaning. Improvements to the deadly Auchterarder junction on the A9 to deliver an over-bridge could also provide full pedestrian and vehicular access to Gleneagles station from Auchterarder thus significantly increasing the usability of the station.

The reason often mentioned for not providing additional stops on the line at present is the acceleration capabilities of the diesel trains used... It's a little bit hilly around that way for standing starts - the long slow drag out of BofA is a prime example. Electric units should be a little more responsive.

Perth would also make a good interchange for electric/diesel units for the Highland supermarket runs - there's plenty of room for manouvre. Might be helpful to get a siding into Blackford too - for the Highland Spring runs.

Finally... If the country is going to spend an absolute fortune creating "green" electricity infrastructure in the Highlands, Islands, Firths and Seas - it should damned well be using it to power the public transport infrastructure nearby.

 

[rail-britain]

Electrification in the Central Scotland area is at least progressing
The current policy is to electrify routes where car use is "not environmentally efficient" and a rail journey would be, such as "Airdrie - Edinburgh"

The electrification beyond Dunblane is likely to be considered during the next Transport Review, due 2014
This would then extend electrification between :
Dunblane and Dundee, possibly also Aberdeen
Edinburgh, Fife, to Perth and Dundee
However, rumours are that the Fife section would be incredibly expensive (Forth Rail Bridge, Tay Rail Bridge, and additional ground works required across Fife) and so for that reason additional monies would be provided for the electrification via Perth, including completely upgraded signalling and increased line speeds between Dunblane and Dundee (to ensure as much of the route is 100mph as possible)

 

[tbtc]

Well, a few of the late evening and early morning services start at Perth...

My main logic is that there would be greater opportunities to re-open or enhance stations between Perth & Dunblane if the line were to be electrified. Blackford is mentioned from time-to-time, as is Greenloaning. Improvements to the deadly Auchterarder junction on the A9 to deliver an over-bridge could also provide full pedestrian and vehicular access to Gleneagles station from Auchterarder thus significantly increasing the usability of the station.

The reason often mentioned for not providing additional stops on the line at present is the acceleration capabilities of the diesel trains used... It's a little bit hilly around that way for standing starts - the long slow drag out of BofA is a prime example. Electric units should be a little more responsive.

Perth would also make a good interchange for electric/diesel units for the Highland supermarket runs - there's plenty of room for manouvre. Might be helpful to get a siding into Blackford too - for the Highland Spring runs.

Finally... If the country is going to spend an absolute fortune creating "green" electricity infrastructure in the Highlands, Islands, Firths and Seas - it should damned well be using it to power the public transport infrastructure nearby.

I see your logic, but I think that if you've got around thirty miles of electrification to do then there are much better candidates, such as Glasgow - Kilmarnock or Kirknewton to Holytown (to go for Scottish examples) - even Manchester to Liverpool isn't much further and would give a much better case

 

[rail-britain]

there are much better candidates, such as Glasgow - Kilmarnock

This electrification is already approved and should commence in 2014, once EGIP is completed

 

[Sgt Elvan]

This electrification is already approved and should commence in 2014, once EGIP is completed

Don't want to go off topic here but how on-target would you say these "milestones" are and has Kilmarnock been added?

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/StrategicBusinessPlan/RoutePlans/2010/Route%20Q%20-%20Scotland%20West.pdf (pages 17-18)

Dec 2013 - Cumbernauld electrification.
Dec 2016 - Whifflet electrification
Dec 2017 - Paisley Canal electrification
Dec 2018 - East Kilbride/Barrhead electrification

 

[rail-britain]

Transport Scotland added Kilmarnock to the electrification plan last year
The Glasgow South electrification is a rolling program, commencing 2013 (the East Kilbride / Barrhead commences 2014) for completion by 2020

 

[GlasgowHST]

It shall be a sad day if East Coast suspend services past Edinburgh. When I was living in London I frequently travelled on the NL service from London KX through to Leuchars and I so preferred it to travelling by plane and I always went for the 10:30 departure from KX. It was perfect with limited stops and saved having to change at Edinburgh which was a huge bonus especially if travelling with luggage.

Recently travelled on the 18:16 service from Aberdeen to Edinburgh Waverley which is operated by East Coast HST and this service terminates at Edinburgh. The service was excellent in First Class and far superior to the service offered by Scotrail and this was commented by several of my fellow passengers who were obviously members of the business community and they commented that this service was far better and surprisingly the first class carriages were fairly busy.

I really hope that East Coast do not abandon services past Edinburgh, and maybe they should rethink a better marketing strategy and encourage people to travel by train on services to Scotland instead of taking the plane!

 

[route101]

Yep it will be sad if Aberdeen and Inverness lose HST service , they are always well loaded . Does anyone use the plane to London on a leisure trip from GLA /EDI ?

 

[Greenback]

Are there plans to withdraw through trains to inverness and Aberdeen? I thought it was just Edinburgh to Glasgow Central?

 

[sprinterguy]

Are there plans to withdraw through trains to inverness and Aberdeen? I thought it was just Edinburgh to Glasgow Central?

It's just reaction and speculation to the findings of the Forster report on IEP, which suggests that terminating East Coast Services at Edinburgh would be a cheaper alternative to having to purchase and run a fleet of bi-mode trains for the London to Aberdeen/Inverness services. Link to the article that started it all in the original post. Diesel hauled drags north of Edinburgh are also mooted.

Personally, by the time the HSTs are withdrawn and something is needed to fill the gap, I'd like to see the line to Aberdeen electrified; which would be pretty cost efefctive, and then there'd be no problems with continued through running.

The long term future of the Inverness train might be a little bit less stable though, as I can't see the Highland Main Line proper beyond Perth being electrified, and if it was withdrawn it would only be the loss of one return service a day. Would be a real shame for it to go though

 

[Nightrider]

No word on the Glasgow CrossRail.

 

[rail-britain]

Personally, by the time the HSTs are withdrawn and something is needed to fill the gap, I'd like to see the line to Aberdeen electrified; which would be pretty cost efefctive
The long term future of the Inverness train might be a little bit less stable though, as I can't see the Highland Main Line proper beyond Perth being electrified

This is all still full of "ifs and buts"
The electrification to Aberdeen will happen eventually, but how long is a piece of string (or rail perhaps!)
However electrification is not efficient, it just simply moves the power source
Electrification between Perth and Inverness is extremely unlikely
However discussions are ongoing to improve the service level, which is also due to take into account the proposed (albeit still at the very early stages) electrification to Perth

If the DfT are not willing to fund HST replacements, then TS may take over the paths on an amended service (which was briefly covered on the proposed electrification to Perth)
This would retain the services north of Edinburgh, but would then run direct to Newcsatle and London only (ie change at Newcastle for other East Coast destinations to the south)

However that is at least two years away

 

[sprinterguy]

This is all still full of "ifs and buts"
The electrification to Aberdeen will happen eventually, but how long is a piece of string (or rail perhaps!)
However electrification is not efficient, it just simply moves the power source

Well, I am talking about a decade in the future, so it's all conjecture on my part. It would just be nice to see some sort of joined up thinking and having Aberdeen electrified by the time the HSTs go so that electric replacements can start immediately on that route and safeguard the service.

Electrification does offer increased efficiency over diesel operation, as having the energy generated at one central power station is more efficient than generating power onboard each individual train (granted there are energy losses along the course of the route from power station to railway vehicle in the wires and transformers). And the use of electrification allows the gradual conversion of the power source to renewable energy as time goes on. Plus it offers better acceleration and allows energy to be saved through regenerative braking.