Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[Typhoon]

Well I think I can safely say it would kill public transport stone dead in this country. Get a jab to get on the train. Or just go in your car hassle free. Tough decision

Worse still, do bus driver's not have enough to do than check passengers have a valid, not counterfeit, vaccine passport; or, maybe, Pritti Patel will threaten those who travel without one with life imprisonment and confiscation of all goods and property (if caught)?

 

[LAX54]

But they may have a tourism industry that relies on foreign visitors, I'd probably spend more money on holiday abroad than I would here and possibly reciprocal is true so both countries benefit rather than Udall staying at home. I enjoy going abroad and experiencing other cultures, that does my wellbeing good, same possibly true for people of other nations? What is wrong with wanting to go abroad? You may not seem it necessary but for some of us it is important.

So, International / Holiday Travel: The question that arises is...Would you be prepared to get a vaccination certificate to go to Florida / Bahamas / Australia etc ?
I cannot see a domestic one ever being viable.

 

[Richard Scott]

So, International / Holiday Travel: The question that arises is...Would you be prepared to get a vaccination certificate to go to Florida / Bahamas / Australia etc ?
I cannot see a domestic one ever being viable.

If I have to then I will. Think it's over the top paranoia if it happens but won't cut my nose off to spite my face on this one.

 

[packermac]

Neither is travelling around our own country, as the last 12 months have shown.

But I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of fish. People travel, and by doing so other countries often benefit. As such each country will be weighing up the balance between insisting on evidence of vaccination, and losing out on valuable tourism income. Some countries will insist on them, others may not. A lot will depend on the state of spread / hospitalisation / deaths in each country, the availability on suitable travel insurance where no cross health agreements exist (such as within the EU) etc. Time will tell.

What I don't understand though is why some on here have such a downer on people travelling abroad. Meeting new people, enjoying different foods, indulging in difference cultures isn't just good for a person, it can bring different cultures together. And all in all that isn't a bad thing.

I do not think people have a downer on travel. I worked for BA for 41 years my pension still depends on its existence. But as you say it is up to each country and each travel company (airline, cruise line) etc to decide if a vaccine passport is needed or say you still have to wear a mask (quite possible on US airlines in a Biden led White House).
At the end of the day it is up to each country to decide on the balance and we do not like the answer to go somewhere else or meet what they want.

 

[SurreyCommuter]

If I have to then I will. Think it's over the top paranoia if it happens but won't cut my nose off to spite my face on this one.

I'm pretty much thinking along those lines.

For domestic ones however I'd be vehemently opposed. I'm 35 with no co-morbidities or health issues so am not expecting to be offered a vaccine before July. I live by myself so if they're expecting me to not set foot in a shop for 4 months even to do basics like food shopping then they've got another thing coming!

 

[nlogax]

So, International / Holiday Travel: The question that arises is...Would you be prepared to get a vaccination certificate to go to Florida / Bahamas / Australia etc ?
I cannot see a domestic one ever being viable.

Hell yes. Whatever lets me travel (though those specific destinations not really on my list)

 

[chris11256]

I'd be happy to have one for travel purposes. But it would have to be a situation where I could call my GP or go into the local pharmacy and book an appointment for the next few days, rather than wait months until deemed eligible.

 

[jumble]

Even if we all had the opportunity to be vaccinated tomorrow, do you really want to live in a society where you have to 'prove' your health status before going to Tesco? For the rest of time?

And make no mistake about it, this wouldn't just be restricted to a specific vaccine for a specific disease for long. It is the start of a Chinese-style social credit system.

I've been saying this for months - for many, this has been the plan all along, and the current crisis has give them the opportunity to try and get it to happen. It has to be stopped. Now.

One of the things that appears to be missed by all the vaccine passport promoters is that the vaccine does not prevent you getting the disease and is only to make sure you do not become too ill or die and is thus not particularly effective in preventing one actually spreading it.
Yellow fever makes you immune to the disease.

As I said upthread in this country it only needs a few people to sue on the basis of DDA because they cannot have the vaccine just like the Mask situation and the whole problem vanishes
Foreign travel is a different story as it is not our laws that govern the situation

 

[londonteacher]

Foreign travel is a different story as it is not our laws that govern the situation

Exactly and despite what some people on this thread think, the UK does not have power over other countries with regards to this. It's quite ironic really - the UK left the EU because they wanted to make their own rules and now people on here want to tell other countries what to do!

Vaccine passports for domestic use should not happen - however I can see why some people might suggest them.

 

[ainsworth74]

As I said upthread in this country it only needs a few people to sue on the basis of DDA because they cannot have the vaccine just like the Mask situation and the whole problem vanishes

Though as has been mentioned on other threads claiming discrimination under the Equality Act is not necessarily the slam dunk that many people seem to think it might be (at least if anything gets as far as court) as you can justify discrimination on the basis that it is a proportional response to a legitimate aim. Now personal I think vaccine passports for domestic use shouldn't be implemented for a whole host of reasons and are unlikely to be a proportionate response but I would be far from comfortable claiming that 'a few people' suing would make the problem vanish.

 

[Watershed]

Expect to see the idea floated of 10 year jail sentences for producing fake vaccination papers. They did the prep work for that a couple of weeks back with the quarantine forms.

Only 10 years in jail? The pattern that has been established is that the penalties for not complying with the latest rules get more and more severe as time goes on. Life prison sentences must be on ministers' minds - though that's not a world apart from the situation in which many currently find themselves (particularly if they cannot go to work).

Plus I'm not sure any Parliamentary votes would be necessary for a 'non-binding' domestic vaccine passport to be produced - that businesses weren't 'required' (legally) to check as a condition of entry - but if all businesses in a sector then decide to require it anyway...

It's a question of whether Parliament is willing to ban employers from discriminating against unvaccinated employees, and businesses from refusing service to unvaccinated MOPs. The lack of a widespread backlash suggests that such a ban isn't on the cards.

I worked for BA for 412 years

I trust you've earned yourself a sizeable pension then?

 

[packermac]

Only 10 years in jail? The pattern that has been established is that the penalties for not complying with the latest rules get more and more severe as time goes on. Life prison sentences must be on ministers' minds - though that's not a world apart from the situation in which many currently find themselves (particularly if they cannot go to work).


It's a question of whether Parliament is willing to ban employers from discriminating against unvaccinated employees, and businesses from refusing service to unvaccinated MOPs. The lack of a widespread backlash suggests that such a ban isn't on the cards.


I trust you've earned yourself a sizeable pension then?

Well spotted, yes it would be good. 41 years of course.
Although when I got my pension letter in error they also included one for a B747 Captain in my envelope. I wish I had his pension!

 

[Domh245]

Surprised not to have seen this story pop up here:

Coronavirus: 'No jab, no job' policies may be legal for new staff

It may be legal to insist on vaccinations in new staff contracts, the justice secretary says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Coronavirus: 'No jab, no job' policies may be legal for new staff​

It may be legal for companies to insist on new staff being vaccinated as a condition of their employment, the justice secretary has said.
However, Robert Buckland said it was unlikely bosses could make existing workers have vaccines under their current contracts.
Downing Street has said it would be "discriminatory" to order people to be vaccinated to keep their job.
But some firms say they will not hire new staff who refuse to have the jab.
In an interview with ITV on Wednesday, Mr Buckland said compelling new staff to be inoculated could, in theory, be possible if it was written into their contracts.
However, employers would probably need to take legal action if existing staff refused such an order, he said.

"I think that has to be the case because we're dealing with existing terms of contracts of employment, thousands of existing contracts,” he said.
He added that the legality of “no jab, no job” would depend “very much on the terms of employment and the particular contract”.
"Generally speaking I'd be surprised if there were contracts of employment existing now that did make that approach lawful. I think frankly the issue would have to be tested.”

London-based Pimlico Plumbers is one company that has said it will not hire new staff who have refused the vaccination on non-medical grounds.
Employment lawyers initially questioned the move, but on Wednesday founder Charlie Mullins said he had been advised it was legal.
"We've obviously been talking to lawyers and they're very happy that we can add this proposal to any new workers that start with us once the vaccine is rolled out," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"We'll be using the new contracts two to three months from now. When people come along for a job with us, if they're not happy to sign that, then again that's their choice, but they certainly won't be given a job with Pimlico Plumbers."
Care home operator Barchester Healthcare has also said all new hires will be obliged to get the jab.
"With regards to our staff, we are doing all we can to reassure and encourage those who are a little more reticent to have the vaccination, and we are also ensuring that all new staff must have the vaccination (if they medically can) before starting work looking after our vulnerable residents and patients who are in our care," Barchester Healthcare wrote on its website.

'Open to challenge'​

David Samuels, legal director at law firm Lewis Silkin, said that there is nothing legally to stop a business from placing a "no jab, no job" clause in contracts for new hires.
However, he cautioned that employers would need to analyse each job role and evaluate health and safety risks before introducing such a clause.
Failure to do so would make it possible to challenge a contract as being unfair or discriminatory, if a claimant can prove they are exempt from having the vaccine for some reason, or unable to access it.
There are concerns, for example, that "no jab, no job" policies would disproportionately affect young people who are last in line to get the jab.
"It's going to be harder to justify - especially if they don't go through that process and document it, and it will be more likely that they will be challenged successfully through a legal claim," Mr Samuels told the BBC.
He added that his firm had received enquiries about whether such a clause could be put in place if the business necessitated some staff to work in the office or in a factory.
The prime minister's official spokesman has said: "Taking a vaccine is not mandatory and it would be discriminatory to force somebody to take one."

More discouraging words (from the PM at least, less senior minsters seem to be used to brief contrarily to gauge opinion) yet no action to prevent it...

 

[Gadget88]

Surprised not to have seen this story pop up here:

Coronavirus: 'No jab, no job' policies may be legal for new staff

It may be legal to insist on vaccinations in new staff contracts, the justice secretary says.

www.bbc.co.uk

More discouraging words (from the PM at least, less senior minsters seem to be used to brief contrarily to gauge opinion) yet no action to prevent it...

At the moment it seems new employees however I spoke to my solicitor tonight he doesn’t seem optimistic and says they could sack me under the health and safety act or something and even if I test it at court he thinks they would still sack me via another route?

 

[DB]

The government could easily pass legislation to prevent employers from discriminating on vaccine grounds, and even from asking whether someone has or has not been vaccinated other than in specific circumstances.

But they won't, of course.

Is the level of corona-paranoia among the general population typical, or is this country one of the worst?

 

[Gadget88]

The government could easily pass legislation to prevent employers from discriminating on vaccine grounds, and even from asking whether someone has or has not been vaccinated other than in specific circumstances.

But they won't, of course.

Is the level of corona-paranoia among the general population typical, or is this country one of the worst?

I know vaccine uptake is lower in the EU and didn’t somebody post something about how the EU was passing an anti discrimination policy so prevent them banning people from travel? I fear I will have no choice but to have this vaccine as I could have no job or can’t enter a cinema? I won’t forget that when I go to the ballet box.

 

[Bessie]

I expect there to be some kind of vaccine passport for overseas travel to be universally adopted by all G20 nations in the near future. My focus is on Eurostar operations and how they will operate. I totally understand vaccination is not compulsory in the UK (and nor should it be in a free country) but I wonder if we will see a new sub-division on Eurostar - carriages; those with passengers which are 100% vaccinated versus those which aren't. The choice will rest with passengers on what they choose to book and with this universal vaccine passport it will be just another field to complete at time of booking.

 

[LAX54]

I imagine some Countries it would easier to issue a 'passport' for Holidays etc, having said that I have only been to Mainland Europe and the USA !
However as many Brits go on Holiday to the States, and if they require such a thing, it could be added to the ESTA application I would have thought ?
No doubt the application would take longer, but would make in simplier for all overall I would have thought, downside would be those that already had one, would possibly have to reapply, they last 2 years and are $14.

 

[takno]

I expect there to be some kind of vaccine passport for overseas travel to be universally adopted by all G20 nations in the near future. My focus is on Eurostar operations and how they will operate. I totally understand vaccination is not compulsory in the UK (and nor should it be in a free country) but I wonder if we will see a new sub-division on Eurostar - carriages; those with passengers which are 100% vaccinated versus those which aren't. The choice will rest with passengers on what they choose to book and with this universal vaccine passport it will be just another field to complete at time of booking.

Why would that be useful? You can walk up and down the train, and besides, the vaccines aren't that effective at preventing spread. This isn't like measles vaccines - you probably aren't particularly contributing to herd immunity by taking it, you're helping yourself.

If they wanted to mess around with immunity passports it would actually be more valuable doing it for measles, and they haven't done it for that, which pretty much tells you what you need to know.

 

[DB]

If they wanted to mess around with immunity passports it would actually be more valuable doing it for measles, and they haven't done it for that, which pretty much tells you what you need to know.

But measles isn't the subject of an irrational level of paranoia!

 

[RT4038]

Countries will demand Covid 19 Vaccination certificates for two reasons - (1) to try and reduce the possibility of a visitor becoming ill with symptoms and using medical care capacity in that country, and (2) to show the citizens of that country that they are protecting them from the virus being imported. Whether it does or not is a moot point, but it won't matter - it is something to be seen to be done.

It will be seen as a prudent act which will not really affect anyone - getting the vaccine jab will become simple and at a relatively small cost; there is already precedent for such with yellow fever etc. Maybe some countries will make mutual agreement to not require the certificate (if both don't have more than average infections), [such as EU members between themselves, or between countries where tourist trade has been badly affected] but this will more likely be in the future when the fear dies down.

 

[takno]

Countries will demand Covid 19 Vaccination certificates for two reasons - (1) to try and reduce the possibility of a visitor becoming ill with symptoms and using medical care capacity in that country, and (2) to show the citizens of that country that they are protecting them from the virus being imported. Whether it does or not is a moot point, but it won't matter - it is something to be seen to be done.

It will be seen as a prudent act which will not really affect anyone - getting the vaccine jab will become simple and at a relatively small cost; there is already precedent for such with yellow fever etc. Maybe some countries will make mutual agreement to not require the certificate (if both don't have more than average infections), [such as EU members between themselves, or between countries where tourist trade has been badly affected] but this will more likely be in the future when the fear dies down.

I think you're right, and it's not one of my biggest worries. It would be better all round of we never got to the point where the bureaucracy was in place though, since these things can be pretty difficult to shift, and if they do end up in place for a long time they can make life pointlessly difficult for people who medically can't comply.

We are currently one of the most vaccinated countries though. As such we would arguably have the most to gain and least to lose from a passport scheme, if it was assumed to be useful at all. That puts us in a good position to argue against it and nip it in the bud, rather than ramping up the fear and making it much more likely.

 

[Bantamzen]

Countries will demand Covid 19 Vaccination certificates for two reasons - (1) to try and reduce the possibility of a visitor becoming ill with symptoms and using medical care capacity in that country, and (2) to show the citizens of that country that they are protecting them from the virus being imported. Whether it does or not is a moot point, but it won't matter - it is something to be seen to be done.

It will be seen as a prudent act which will not really affect anyone - getting the vaccine jab will become simple and at a relatively small cost; there is already precedent for such with yellow fever etc. Maybe some countries will make mutual agreement to not require the certificate (if both don't have more than average infections), [such as EU members between themselves, or between countries where tourist trade has been badly affected] but this will more likely be in the future when the fear dies down.

The countries most likely to mandate them will be any that make the vaccine compulsory. For other countries, particularly within the EU, it would become quickly difficult to justify them where vaccines are not mandatory, particularly given that the current crop of vaccines whilst reducing the risk of transmission are primarily there to protect those that have been vaccinated.

 

[MikeWM]

At the moment it seems new employees however I spoke to my solicitor tonight he doesn’t seem optimistic and says they could sack me under the health and safety act or something and even if I test it at court he thinks they would still sack me via another route?

That doesn't sound terribly helpful from your solicitor. Certainly it is generally true that if your employer wants to get rid of you badly enough for some reason then they will probably find a way to do so, and it is rarely helpful to take an employer to court if you want to continue working for them... Nevertheless, it sounds a rather defeatist attitude.

I did see the idea floated a week or two ago, but personally I think firing people under H&S is very unlikely to happen and very unlikely to stick. H&S (or any other law) does not require healthy people to undergo medical treatment. In particular not treatment that is still only in the 'emergency use' stage, and will be for at least 2 more years.

Note also the unions are (finally!) starting to oppose the idea. This is behind a paywall, but the headline speaks for itself.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/reject-no-covid-jab-no-job-trade-unions-urge-government-qk2ntmt7j

Reject ‘no Covid jab, no job’, trade unions urge government

I understand your concern and share it - we shouldn't even be talking about this in a supposedly civilized society - but I would recommend not being overly concerned yet about something that may - or may not - happen.

 

[kristiang85]

It looks like Israel is going down the domestic vaccine pass route (I won't say 'passport' as this confuses it with the debate about international borders, which I see as very separate). I hope this doesn't give our ministers ideas...

As Israel Reopens, ‘Whoever Does Not Get Vaccinated Will Be Left Behind’ (Published 2021)

New government and business initiatives are moving in the direction of a two-tier system for the vaccinated and unvaccinated, raising legal, moral and ethical questions.

www.nytimes.com

Israel has raced ahead with the fastest Covid vaccination campaign in the world, inoculating nearly half its population with at least one dose. Now, the rapid rollout is turning the country into a live laboratory for setting the rules in a vaccinated society — raising thorny questions about rights, obligations and the greater good.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s cabinet voted this week to open shopping malls and museums to the public, subject to social distancing rules and mandatory masking. For the first time in many months, gyms, cultural and sports events, hotels and swimming pools will also reopen, but only for some.

Under a new “Green Badge” system that functions as both a carrot and a stick, the government is making leisure activities accessible only to people who are fully vaccinated or recovered starting Sunday. Two weeks later, restaurants, event halls and conferences will be allowed to operate under those rules. Customers and attendees will have to carry a certificate of vaccination with a QR code.

Israel is one of the first countries grappling in real time with a host of legal, moral and ethical questions as it tries to balance the steps toward resuming public life with sensitive issues such as public safety, discrimination, free choice and privacy.

“Getting vaccinated is a moral duty. It is part of our mutual responsibility,” said the health minister, Yuli Edelstein. He also has a new mantra: “Whoever does not get vaccinated will be left behind.”

The debate swirling within Israel is percolating across other parts of the world as well, with plans to reserve international travel for vaccinated “green passport” holders and warnings of growing disparities between more-vaccinated affluent countries and less-vaccinated poor ones.

Israel’s central government — eager to bring the country out of its third national lockdown without setting off a new wave of infections — was spurred into action by local initiatives. Chafing under the country’s lockdown regulations, an indoor shopping mall in the working-class Tel Aviv suburb of Bat Yam threw its doors open last week for customers who could prove that they had been vaccinated or had recovered from Covid-19.

In Karmiel, the mayor made a similar decision to open his city in the northern Galilee region for business. His office began processing requests from employers who could verify that all of their employees had received the requisite two vaccine doses or had recovered from the virus.

And in other cities, mayors wanted to bar unvaccinated teachers from classrooms while some hoteliers threatened unvaccinated employees with dismissal.

Dr. Maya Peled Raz, an expert in health law and ethics at the University of Haifa, defended some limits on personal liberties for the greater good. Employers cannot force employees to get vaccinated, she said, but they might be allowed to employ only vaccinated workers if not doing so could harm their business.

“That may involve some damage to individual rights, but not all damage is prohibited if it is well-balanced and legitimate in order to achieve a worthy goal,” she said. “It’s your choice,” she added of leisure activities. “If you are vaccinated, you can enter. As long as you aren’t, we can’t let you endanger others.”

Four million Israelis — nearly half the population of nine million — have received at least one dose of the Pfizer vaccine, and more than 2.6 million have gotten a second dose. But about two million eligible citizens aged 16 or over have not sought vaccines. The average number of new daily infections is hovering around 4,000.

The speedy vaccination program in Israel contrasts sharply with the situation in the occupied territories, where few Palestinians have received even one dose. The disparity has provoked fierce debates about Israel’s ethical and legal obligations to the Palestinians, as well as the potential health risk to Israelis of not vaccinating them.

Mr. Edelstein, the health minister, said on Thursday that vaccination would not be compulsory in Israel. But his ministry is proposing legislation that would oblige unvaccinated employees whose work involves contact with the public to be tested for the virus every two days. And he is promoting a bill that would allow the ministry to identify unvaccinated people to the local authorities.

Local authorities and volunteers have been trying to lure people to vaccination centers with offers of free pizza, Arabic sweets and, in the ultra-Orthodox city of Bnei Brak, bags of cholent — a slow-cooked stew traditionally prepared for the sabbath.

Yet getting vaccinated remains voluntary and not everybody is rushing to it.

Ofek Hacohen, 34, a manager of vacation rentals in Jerusalem, said he believed in a natural approach to a healthy body and insisted that the risk posed by the virus — which he called “a flu” — had been exaggerated. He added that he did not trust the vaccine’s safety.

He said he did not know what he would do if legislation was introduced limiting his options.

“But I won’t get vaccinated. I’ll surely participate in demonstrations. I believe I won’t be alone,” he said, adding, “I can survive without going to the theater, to soccer matches or to a restaurant. It’s annoying but what can I do?”

Concerts and restaurants are luxuries that people can more easily forgo. But the questions become more pressing and contentious when it comes to the rights of employers and workers.

The rights of teaching staffs have come under particular scrutiny as some in-person classes reopen. A quarter or more of Israel’s teachers have not sought a first dose, a situation that critics say poses a potential danger to pupils under 16, who are too young to be vaccinated. Some health workers have also refrained from being vaccinated.

After a number of city mayors threatened to bar unvaccinated teachers from their classrooms, the deputy attorney general clarified that they did not have the authority to do so without new legislation.

Dr. Peled Raz said the temporary emergency law governing Israel’s response to the virus would be easier to amend with regard to health workers than to others because of potential harm to themselves and patients, adding that would be justified.
“You want to be a nurse and won’t get vaccinated?” she said. “Either get vaccinated or choose another profession.”
But two rights organizations, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel and the Worker’s Hotline, said they had already received complaints from other unvaccinated workers. The groups wrote a letter to the attorney general this month demanding that he issue a clear opinion and said that under existing law an employer may not demand information from workers regarding their vaccination status.
“The first problem is that there is no policy,” said Gil Gan-Mor, the director of the civil and social rights unit at the Association for Civil Rights in Israel. “When the government is not working fast enough, we see too many private initiatives.”
Striking a balance between competing rights and interests remains a matter of debate, he said, and requires a broad discussion in Parliament.

Barak Cohen, a lawyer and social activist, raised more questions in a recent Facebook post.
“To what degree is it appropriate to pressure and coerce when the decision-making process surrounding the vaccine is kept hidden, in the dark and confidential?” he wrote, noting that he does not deny the seriousness of the coronavirus or the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine.

He also pointed to the low public trust in the government and what he called drug companies’ “huge financial interest.”
In Karmiel, City Hall gave at least 20 businesses a local version of a Green Badge to put in their windows, according to Eli Sade, the director of the mayor’s office. All who entered were required to show that they had been vaccinated or had recovered from the virus. But police officers told store owners to close because they were breaking the law.
The shopping mall in Bat Yam, which wanted customers to prove they had been vaccinated, soon dropped the requirement for showing a green passport at the entrance and went back to equipping the guards with temperature guns.
Inside, the few stores that opened had created their own entry policies. One chain followed basic social distancing regulations while another required a vaccination certificate. Sportswear and lingerie stores operated a “takeout” service for customers who stood at the door.
Haifa Zeinab, 20, who was working in a Japanese-style home wear and gift store, said she did not plan to be vaccinated because an aunt had been overcome by dizziness after both of her doses. If she was told not to come without a green passport or a negative test every two days, she said with a shrug, “So I won’t come.”

 

[RT4038]

The countries most likely to mandate them will be any that make the vaccine compulsory. For other countries, particularly within the EU, it would become quickly difficult to justify them where vaccines are not mandatory, particularly given that the current crop of vaccines whilst reducing the risk of transmission are primarily there to protect those that have been vaccinated.

Maybe or maybe not. It is not unusual for countries to have different standards for visitors compared to their own. I am not too sure to whom a country would have to justify its requirement ? If the EU, for instance, decides that there is a vaccination requirement for all those entering the Schengen area, who within the EU is really going to complain? It will likely be seen as a prudent policy.

 

[Bantamzen]

It looks like Israel is going down the domestic vaccine pass route (I won't say 'passport' as this confuses it with the debate about international borders, which I see as very separate). I hope this doesn't give our ministers ideas...

As Israel Reopens, ‘Whoever Does Not Get Vaccinated Will Be Left Behind’ (Published 2021)

New government and business initiatives are moving in the direction of a two-tier system for the vaccinated and unvaccinated, raising legal, moral and ethical questions.

www.nytimes.com

I doubt it, Israel is a country that is on a constant state of alert and as such it will be far easier to impose whatever restrictions they like.

Maybe or maybe not. It is not unusual for countries to have different standards for visitors compared to their own. I am not too sure to whom a country would have to justify its requirement ? If the EU, for instance, decides that there is a vaccination requirement for all those entering the Schengen area, who within the EU is really going to complain? It will likely be seen as a prudent policy.

The EU has been discussing the possibility, and already the issue of discrimination has been brought up as a major concern. And of course there are quite a few EU nations with very tourism based industries for whom any early adaptation would be disastrous for their economies after a very bad year in 2020. But more to the point, why would they need them? After all in a few short months hundreds of millions of people around the globe will have either had a vaccine, or live in a country where the vaccine is so widely administered that risks levels would be little more than those of the flu. This continuing obsession in insisting on testing / proof of vaccination might appeal to politicians right now, but in practical terms will start to pose more problems than they will solve.

Further afield some countries may go down this line, especially those mandating the vaccine to all or those with very low vaccination rates. And even then, some may still be eying those lost Dollars / Euros / Pounds and the lose of tourist revenue might result in abandoning or withdrawing mandating of tourist vaccinations.

 

[island]

Why would that be useful? You can walk up and down the train

If it came to it (which I think it shouldn’t, just to be clear) they could quite easily lock off the relevant coaches. They already do this for intra-Schengen travellers on Brussels-London services.

 

[Gadget88]

That doesn't sound terribly helpful from your solicitor. Certainly it is generally true that if your employer wants to get rid of you badly enough for some reason then they will probably find a way to do so, and it is rarely helpful to take an employer to court if you want to continue working for them... Nevertheless, it sounds a rather defeatist attitude.

I did see the idea floated a week or two ago, but personally I think firing people under H&S is very unlikely to happen and very unlikely to stick. H&S (or any other law) does not require healthy people to undergo medical treatment. In particular not treatment that is still only in the 'emergency use' stage, and will be for at least 2 more years.

Note also the unions are (finally!) starting to oppose the idea. This is behind a paywall, but the headline speaks for itself.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/reject-no-covid-jab-no-job-trade-unions-urge-government-qk2ntmt7j


I understand your concern and share it - we shouldn't even be talking about this in a supposedly civilized society - but I would recommend not being overly concerned yet about something that may - or may not - happen. Thanks well you are right probba it not

That doesn't sound terribly helpful from your solicitor. Certainly it is generally true that if your employer wants to get rid of you badly enough for some reason then they will probably find a way to do so, and it is rarely helpful to take an employer to court if you want to continue working for them... Nevertheless, it sounds a rather defeatist attitude.

I did see the idea floated a week or two ago, but personally I think firing people under H&S is very unlikely to happen and very unlikely to stick. H&S (or any other law) does not require healthy people to undergo medical treatment. In particular not treatment that is still only in the 'emergency use' stage, and will be for at least 2 more years.

Note also the unions are (finally!) starting to oppose the idea. This is behind a paywall, but the headline speaks for itself.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/reject-no-covid-jab-no-job-trade-unions-urge-government-qk2ntmt7j


I understand your concern and share it - we shouldn't even be talking about this in a supposedly civilized society - but I would recommend not being overly concerned yet about something that may - or may not - happen.

Thanks you are right I came off the phone feeling awful. Some solicitors seem better than others. In the ideal world I would sit out this year see how the long term effects of vaccine are. Travel is my worry. Will every country impose it or will there be loopholes round it? Worst case I need they jab for travel I wonder for how long? Given vaccine uptake in Europe is lower they would be for example limiting Germans visiting Spain ect. Surely they would lose out long term tourism wise?

I doubt it, Israel is a country that is on a constant state of alert and as such it will be far easier to impose whatever restrictions they like.


The EU has been discussing the possibility, and already the issue of discrimination has been brought up as a major concern. And of course there are quite a few EU nations with very tourism based industries for whom any early adaptation would be disastrous for their economies after a very bad year in 2020. But more to the point, why would they need them? After all in a few short months hundreds of millions of people around the globe will have either had a vaccine, or live in a country where the vaccine is so widely administered that risks levels would be little more than those of the flu. This continuing obsession in insisting on testing / proof of vaccination might appeal to politicians right now, but in practical terms will start to pose more problems than they will solve.

Further afield some countries may go down this line, especially those mandating the vaccine to all or those with very low vaccination rates. And even then, some may still be eying those lost Dollars / Euros / Pounds and the lose of tourist revenue might result in abandoning or withdrawing mandating of tourist vaccinations.

Very interesting how do you see this panning out? What happens if the EU say no mandated vaccine but EasyJet or Eurostar insist on one? Do you think the vaccine passport may be a short term fix until the pandemic ends like yellow fever vaccine offers full proof but covid ones don’t anyway?

If it came to it (which I think it shouldn’t, just to be clear) they could quite easily lock off the relevant coaches. They already do this for intra-Schengen travellers on Brussels-London services.

So a vaccination coach and an unvaccinated coach? Seems an interesting idea

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It looks like Israel is going down the domestic vaccine pass route (I won't say 'passport' as this confuses it with the debate about international borders, which I see as very separate). I hope this doesn't give our ministers ideas...

As Israel Reopens, ‘Whoever Does Not Get Vaccinated Will Be Left Behind’ (Published 2021)

New government and business initiatives are moving in the direction of a two-tier system for the vaccinated and unvaccinated, raising legal, moral and ethical questions.

www.nytimes.com

That whole article makes me feel so, well I don't know what, depressed, angry, frustrated, astonished?

Given the country in question, the reason for it's (re)creation by international treaty in 1948, the atrocities faced by its founding population. To be specifically picking out a sub-group for discriminatory treatment is beyond belief.

As an aside, but relevant to the discussion on 'proof of things by the general public', there is an article in The Times today referring to a forthcoming bill to require photo ID for elections from 2023 onwards. No photo ID, no vote, end of.

These ideas never go away, their proponents just keep coming back, they simply cannot let it go. As per the regularly rehashed 'no summer time' and 'double summer time' debate.

So it will be with Citizen ID and vaccination passports. In a couple of years time, there will be an outbreak of variant x, lockdown 10 and the arguments will be dusted down and re-gurgitated.