jamesst
Member
It's only three isn't it? MoD, BTP and CNC?
Mersey tunnels police, Port of Liverpool police...
It's only three isn't it? MoD, BTP and CNC?
Yep but there's a whole culture now of not paying and doing as you want on SE metro as it's so minimally staffed. When there's a very rare occasion someone is challenged they kick off as a culture has become embedded. It's a symptom of the unsafe railway that's developed through inadequate staffing and policing.
I'm not sure it's even medium term (2-5 years). Wasn't it the case that within a month or two counted passenger numbers at Abbey Wood near doubled after allday staffing and barrier lines were introduced. That's a couple of million journeys per annum.
But yes I agree that still no incentive for south eastern to do it as they never had more than a few months to run for half a decade.
As you say Bromley is generally a fairly nice (if not a bit dull) part of suburban London. However you do certainly get all sorts travelling through, perhaps because it’s the last stop on mainline services and being the biggest nearby centre for stopping services (some of which terminate) from unbarried stations.I was somewhat stunned to hear about this. Bromley is generally a non-violent area and one of my regular haunts. Of course, just because most of the locals are non-violent, it doesn't mean that people who think it's acceptable to carry a knife won't travel through.
I understand that revenue enforcement is one of the less pleasant areas of the railway, but at the same time, staff who work on the gate lines and front-line revenue checks should not have to work in fear of being sworn at, spat on, pushed, punched, kicked or in this case, stabbed. They're here to do a job that, in an ideal world, shouldn't need to be done because people should pay for what they use.
Used to be the Royal Parks Police as well but they became part of the Met in 2004.You are correct. I had thought it was four for some reason.
Given that the BTP have to deal with all railway related crime, crime that isn't necessarily at or near a station, the quoted 3000 officers does not seem very much...particularly as 25% of that number probably aren't on shift due to rest days, training, sickness and annual leave.
It's only three isn't it? MoD, BTP and CNC?
Mersey tunnels police, Port of Liverpool police...
For the sake of completeness - the term "special police force" has a distinct meaning that's changed over time. By the present meaning there are only three; the BTP, the Ministry of Defence Police, and the Civil Nuclear Constabulary.Used to be the Royal Parks Police as well but they became part of the Met in 2004.
It's for this reason that I can see a valid argument for policing the railways (and indeed all public transport) to be a special competency within the territorial forces, but any further discussion would be better conducted in a new topic.This problem is due to the nature of the network - it is easy to place points to cover a plane as territorial forces do, much less easy to have points to respond to places on a network as BTP need to.
NR staff at Birmingham New Street too. Cameras certainly wouldn't hurt in instances like this.Some platform dispatchers have them, I know the staff at St Albans City for Thameslink do use them.
BTP have an annual budget of £300 million & 3,000 officers.
That is £100,000 per officer. (Including overheads)
A huge sum bearing in mind staff & the public rarely see them, except for occasional PR shows at main line stations.
Reading through the 53 posts an idea has occurred to me that I never had before.
At post 39 Horizon22 said an arrest ties up BTP officers for ages.
BT police are said to be railway specialists. They do not need to process an arrest. They could be on their way using their specialist skills(if they exist) on other calls.
They should immediately hand over the suspects to the local police who should have the responsibility for processing & detaining if necessary.
BTP travel 2 in a car so the second officer can give all the details to the local officers as they go to another railway job.
If forum member think this silly then I still think BTP should be abolished.
What are the specialist skills? Other professionals, RAIB, do accident investigation. BTP often get in the way.
Local non BTP police really know their beat including the railway stations. We do not need, or have a Tyne & Wear Metro force, or a bus or taxi police force.
I think most TOCs / stations would want to promote how safe their service is rather than how many wrong 'uns get convicted.A 'Rogues Gallery' of railway offenders would be a useful addition to railway stations. A notice board on the wall of the ticket hall placed on the 'public' side of the gateline. It would have four purposes; to deter offenders from further offending; to deter potential offenders; to reassure railway staff that offenders do actually get convicted and punished; to inform the public that offenders do actually get convicted and punished.
It is for this reason that many people who live in Chelsea do not want a local station if Crossrail 2 ever goes ahead.I was somewhat stunned to hear about this. Bromley is generally a non-violent area and one of my regular haunts. Of course, just because most of the locals are non-violent, it doesn't mean that people who think it's acceptable to carry a knife won't travel through.
That's what they claim. Although I'd argue in this case that a Range Rover Discovery with a lone occupant texting behind the wheel is more dangerous to Chelsea residents than the threat of a gated station that takes traffic off the roads.It is for this reason that many people who live in Chelsea do not want a local station if Crossrail 2 ever goes ahead.
A strange and eccentric response. I've never heard of a Range Rover stabbing anyone. I imagine that most residents of Chelsea also disapprove of anyone texting while driving a car, regardless of the make.That's what they claim. Although I'd argue in this case that a Range Rover Discovery with a lone occupant texting behind the wheel is more dangerous to Chelsea residents than the threat of a gated station that takes traffic off the roads.
I don’t know about monthly but yes the the ORR figures (yearly) show a big rise. That’s the benefit of a) a brand new station to allow b) more barriers that are c) permanently staffed. I’m not saying that isn’t right but it doesn’t always come cheap.
SE could have more Revenue Protection / Rail Enforcement officers (I note they were recently recruiting for the latter) to allow a better “roaming” presence although it was one of these staff members who was sadly the victim here.
As you say Bromley is generally a fairly nice (if not a bit dull) part of suburban London. However you do certainly get all sorts travelling through, perhaps because it’s the last stop on mainline services and being the biggest nearby centre for stopping services (some of which terminate) from unbarried stations.
Sadly I think this an indictment on wider society and a lack of respect for people doing customer-facing roles. I saw for instance paramedics to be trialling wearing body cams due to an increase in assaults. Many revenue staff already wear these and even then that wasn’t a deterrent here. I will at least credit the RMT with standing up for the safety of their members here to try and achieve the very best, even if their their rhetoric is typically gung-ho.
Very many inaccuracies in that post. For example, the arresting officer needs to provide a statement for the file. Do they hand the suspect straight over and go off on patrol without providing that? Processing the suspect in custody takes relatively little time, completing all the paperwork is the biggest factor. Given local police forces are overstretched, is it really a good idea to pass that load onto them?Reading through the 53 posts an idea has occurred to me that I never had before.
At post 39 Horizon22 said an arrest ties up BTP officers for ages.
BT police are said to be railway specialists. They do not need to process an arrest. They could be on their way using their specialist skills(if they exist) on other calls.
They should immediately hand over the suspects to the local police who should have the responsibility for processing & detaining if necessary.
BTP travel 2 in a car so the second officer can give all the details to the local officers as they go to another railway job.
If forum member think this silly then I still think BTP should be abolished.
What are the specialist skills? Other professionals, RAIB, do accident investigation. BTP often get in the way.
Local non BTP police really know their beat including the railway stations. We do not need, or have a Tyne & Wear Metro force, or a bus or taxi police force.
If someone had taken your laptop and gone, there's little anyone could do to be honest. CCTV is the responsibility of the train operator, not the BTP. They took the time to work out which service you were on and request footage, and if CCTV was available they could have done something about it. By the time you realised your laptop was gone, they'd have been long gone even if there was someone right on the concourse. They also don't check tickets - they work with the TOC to provide support at barrier lines where possible as they find that people who don't bother with tickets are more likely to be of interest to them for other reasons as well...Minimal staffing ? I appreciate they have a lot of railway to cover and seem to be not a deterrent, but only to turn up and give you a crime number afterwards. I wanted to report my laptop had been stolen from a Thameslink service at St Pan. No BTP at St Pan or Kings Cross that I could find. Rail staff gave me number. I rang and they rang me back about a week later, just to give me a crime number. They could not do anything about it as CCTV on the carriage I was in didn't work! Its strange that the only time you see them is during a " sweep" for tickets at a barrier. Hope the staff member recovers fully.
They don't need to stab anyone. A 2.5 ton Range Rover is perfectly capable of being just as dangerous to pedestrians and other road users. My point was that not building a stop for Crossrail in Chelsea isn't going to be safer on balance versus taking traffic off of the road. That might have been overly subtle on my part.A strange and eccentric response. I've never heard of a Range Rover stabbing anyone. I imagine that most residents of Chelsea also disapprove of anyone texting while driving a car, regardless of the make.
There have been checkpoint s with metal detectors I've been through one at Uxbridge and StratfordThey don't need to stab anyone. A 2.5 ton Range Rover is perfectly capable of being just as dangerous to pedestrians and other road users. My point was that not building a stop for Crossrail in Chelsea isn't going to be safer on balance versus taking traffic off of the road. That might have been overly subtle on my part.
Back on the topic of stabbings and other violence against rail staff, what else can be done to mitigate the risks? Random checkpoints with metal detectors? This would definitely be a bit draconian, but if people are routinely carrying weapons or "going equipped with intent to cause harm with an offensive weapon", they need to be deterred - it needs to be not worth it for them to carry a knife.
And BTP response time doesn't seem to have been an issue in this case anyway... That's not to say there aren't issues with the way the railway is policed. But consider this, in the mid 1950s there were just over 3000 BT(C)P Officers, a minority admittedly covering docks and canals, plus just over 100 in the London Transport Police. In the early 50s BT(C)P were the second largest Force in the country, only second to the Met.
You haven't been subtle enough! Including a station in SW3 on Crossrail 2 does not guarantee a reduction in road traffic, still less a reduction in the use of Range Rovers, still less again a reduction in road deaths and injuries. Many of the residents of Chelsea believe what would be guaranteed is an increase in vicious, anti-social undesirables visiting their area.They don't need to stab anyone. A 2.5 ton Range Rover is perfectly capable of being just as dangerous to pedestrians and other road users. My point was that not building a stop for Crossrail in Chelsea isn't going to be safer on balance versus taking traffic off of the road. That might have been overly subtle on my part.
Doesn’t work that way I’m afraid. The arresting officer and their oppo (if they even have one) have to personally write statements of what they saw/did/etc. for the evidence and procedure.At post 39 Horizon22 said an arrest ties up BTP officers for ages.
BT police are said to be railway specialists. They do not need to process an arrest. They could be on their way using their specialist skills(if they exist) on other calls.
They should immediately hand over the suspects to the local police who should have the responsibility for processing & detaining if necessary.
BTP travel 2 in a car so the second officer can give all the details to the local officers as they go to another railway job.
I think you’ll find special constables aren’t paid.Even that artificially high number, given that you haven't accounted for the budget also paying for over 200 PCSO, 250+ Special Constables and 1500 Police Staff, is pretty good value
I agree that fare evasion is rife on Southeastern – it is my local TOC and I have my ticket checked about once a year – though the layout of several of the stations you mention is not conducive to gating. Kidbrooke, for example, has three entrances and whilst you could gate the main entrance on the up platform, the secondary entrance to that platform would be far more difficult to gate and the down platform impossible. Similar or worse situation at Blackheath, Lee, New Eltham (down side), Greenwich, and others.Given the sudden increase in passengers with tickets once a staffed gateline, it's pretty mad it wasn't done 20 years before. But alas DfT are/were useless. Now it has as TfL in control, leaving many other stations on SE in need of the same. It wouldn't be prohibitively expensive at Plumstead, Belvedere, Charlton etc. Plumstead is due a rebuild soon - but no effort going in for a gateline. Kidbrooke just rebuilt without a gateline. Deptford rebuilt in recent years without one.
Also on Southeastern. Dartford and Ashford for two earlier this year.There have been checkpoint s with metal detectors I've been through one at Uxbridge and Stratford
Only a very small number of stations fall under this, and even then as long as they provide a way through such as free platform tickets when the gates are closed it is still legal. See for example Guildford.Just to add further confusion/information. Some stations you are not allowed to gate as they have a public right of way going through them !
Lewisham is another popular choice.Also on Southeastern. Dartford and Ashford for two earlier this year.
Going for low hanging fruit.Plenty of BTP about enforcing mask wearing on trains during both lockdowns. They must have come out of the woodwork from somewhere. And they were BTP - not rail enforcement officers
I think you’ll find special constables aren’t paid.