Russia invades Ukraine

[BananaRepublic]

Europe will have to break it's dependency on Russian fossil fuels sooner or later. Might as well be sooner.

It goes a lot deeper than fuel supplies.
Germany is up to its neck in industrial and business deals with Russia.
Hence their past hesitancy in condemning Russia over past events (Georgia, Ukraine etc).

Former German chancellor, Schroeder is a key figure in Nord Stream and has been nominated to join the Gazprom board.
He’s said to be a personal friend of Putin. Other former senior German politicians have close business links with Russian companies.
There are also powerful German industrialists who have deep, vested interests in continuing business as normal, with Moscow.
Germany has a lot to lose if wide ranging, punitive sanctions are implemented by all of Europe.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Exactly the point I was making yesterday. If anyone is to blame for the present crisis in the Ukraine it is the Americans!

So next time your house gets burgled, is it OK for your neighbour to tell you that, if anyone is to blame, it's the police for provoking the burglar with all their threats to arrest criminals and crack down on crime?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It’s not a rumour.
They officially announced the termination of their sponsorship deal, this morning.

I have been having a hospital appointment this morning and two of the hospital porters were discussing the matter.

 

[najaB]

It goes a lot deeper than fuel supplies.
Germany is up to its neck in industrial and business deals with Russia.
Hence their past hesitancy in condemning Russia over past events (Georgia, Ukraine etc).

Former German chancellor, Schroeder is a key figure in Nord Stream and has been nominated to join the Gazprom board.
He’s said to be a personal friend of Putin. Other former senior German politicians have close business links with Russian companies.
There are also powerful German industrialists who have deep, vested interests in continuing business as normal, with Moscow.
Germany has a lot to lose if wide ranging, punitive sanctions are implemented by all of Europe.

Of course, an alternative view is that Russia also has a lot to lose if those deals/projects aren't completed. So it's in the economic interests of both sides to end this conflict as soon as possible. However, the problem (as I see it) is that Putin doesn't really have an 'off ramp' and so may feel compelled to finish what he started.

If he was to pull out all his troops today, at this moment, how could he sell his actions as a 'win'?

 

[adc82140]

The RT website has been down most of the day. Anonymous are behind it. So none of us get to see the futile attempts at defending the indefensible.

 

[DanNCL]

Is there any truth to the rumour that the American owners of Manchester United have terminated the sponsorship deal with Aeroflot?

Yes, just been announced.

There were a few more destinations.
Pre-COVID it was UK to Seoul, Tokyo, Osaka, Hong Kong, Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu and a couple of other Chinese cities.
Some of those services have continued to run for cargo only and recently, some have been restored for passengers, but at a much lower frequency than pre-pandemic.

The ban only affects UK airlines, effectively it’s a ban on British Airways and Virgin Atlantic. Airlines like ANA, Air China, Korean Air etc are still able to fly over Russia on UK - Far East flights.

The RT website has been down most of the day. Anonymous are behind it. So none of us get to see the futile attempts at defending the indefensible.

Good. Hopefully they take down Putin propaganda websites within Russia next.

 

[brad465]

We are still taking their oil and gas because we've allowed the N.Sea assets to be run down in the name of climate change. I'd rather we exploit what we have when we know it will be done in a way that complies with environmental regulations as well as providing work for our countries people not Putin mates who exploit there staff and have scant regard for the environment.

We'd still be selling oil and gas on the global market, and the size of Russian exports is so large that I doubt prices would be much lower if at all. In terms of supply we'd be unlikely to extract at a fast enough rate to be 100% sufficient from oil and gas, without rapidly reducing the reliance on it overall.

I'd argue the real problem here is a policy of blindly pursuing economic growth, to provide the population a strong look at home and on the international stage, without thinking twice about the cleanliness of that growth. This apparent mentality will likely have influenced the UK's investment-visa programme and lack of financial regulations that together created "Londongrad". This mindset also will have led key countries to depend too much on Russia for gas. Going forward, large parts of the world need to think twice about its dealings with China for the same reason.

What good is growth if the areas driving growth collapse/turn in such a way that it all comes crashing down later?

 

[Giugiaro]

Exactly the point I was making yesterday. If anyone is to blame for the present crisis in the Ukraine it is the Americans!

Wow, I just checked this thread for the first time and I already saw the very stance of the Portuguese Communist Party in a single reply.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Russia Today was still on Freeview channel 234 in the very early hours of this morning, showing damage to areas held by the separatist-held parts of the Dombass region and a street interview with a very old woman there. Why has that channel not been taken down?

 

[yorksrob]

It goes a lot deeper than fuel supplies.
Germany is up to its neck in industrial and business deals with Russia.
Hence their past hesitancy in condemning Russia over past events (Georgia, Ukraine etc).

Former German chancellor, Schroeder is a key figure in Nord Stream and has been nominated to join the Gazprom board.
He’s said to be a personal friend of Putin. Other former senior German politicians have close business links with Russian companies.
There are also powerful German industrialists who have deep, vested interests in continuing business as normal, with Moscow.
Germany has a lot to lose if wide ranging, punitive sanctions are implemented by all of Europe.

It sounds as though Germany will have some tough choices ahead in that case.

 

[nw1]

Really? Have you forgotten how Western public opinion supports Chechenya separatists?

It goes a lot deeper than fuel supplies.
Germany is up to its neck in industrial and business deals with Russia.
Hence their past hesitancy in condemning Russia over past events (Georgia, Ukraine etc).

Former German chancellor, Schroeder is a key figure in Nord Stream and has been nominated to join the Gazprom board.
He’s said to be a personal friend of Putin. Other former senior German politicians have close business links with Russian companies.
There are also powerful German industrialists who have deep, vested interests in continuing business as normal, with Moscow.
Germany has a lot to lose if wide ranging, punitive sanctions are implemented by all of Europe.

I was shocked to hear about Schroeder, I didn't know a lot about him but I assumed that, as he was SPD which I considered to be the most middle-of-the-road of all the main German parties, he might have been quite good.

A veritable Saruman figure, it seems.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Putin now asking the Ukrainian army to overthrow its own government. I'll be interested to see if that has any impact. Reports from Kyiv seem to be very much suggesting that many locals are digging in for a fight.

 

[ainsworth74]

Putin now asking the Ukrainian army to overthrow its own government.

Not that surprising. His own army is struggling to achieve that objective without taking significant casualties and taking far longer than I'm sure Putin had expected. So trying to get the other side to help is an obvious move. Doubt it'll have much effect though.

 

[Caboose Class]

So next time your house gets burgled, is it OK for your neighbour to tell you that, if anyone is to blame, it's the police for provoking the burglar with all their threats to arrest criminals and crack down on crime?

Sorry, but I fail to see any logic in there whatsoever.

The point I am making about the Americans is that back in 2008 they forced the rest of NATO (who were totally opposed) to agree to offer NATO membership to Ukraine and Georgia. Ukraine foolishly pursued NATO membership and is now suffering the consequences - not that I for one minute condone what Putin is doing over there right now. After the Wall came down, NATO should have left things as they were - instead of inviting a further 12 nations, all of which were at one time all under the Soviet yoke, to become NATO members. And don't come that nationalistic self-determination crap = particularly for a country which directly shares a border with the Russian Federation. Back in Sept 2019, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said (wrt to Georgia's application for NATO membership) "NATO approaching our borders is a threat to Russia". No wonder Putin is pissed off!!

 

[ainsworth74]

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said (wrt to Georgia's application for NATO membership) "NATO approaching our borders is a threat to Russia"

Nobody tell him about Norway then...

 

[DanNCL]

Sorry, but I fail to see any logic in there whatsoever.

The point I am making about the Americans is that back in 2008 they forced the rest of NATO (who were totally opposed) to agree to offer NATO membership to Ukraine and Georgia. Ukraine foolishly pursued NATO membership and is now suffering the consequences - not that I for one minute condone what Putin is doing over there right now.

That’s not entirely true - the UK have supported the idea of Ukraine joining NATO all along. Can’t comment for the rest of NATO.

 

[Caboose Class]

Nobody tell him about Norway then...

Norway was one of the founder members of NATO back in 1949 and it shares a 50 mile moose-infested border with Russia up there in the High Arctic. Hardly a relevant comparison with Ukraine!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Sorry, but I fail to see any logic in there whatsoever.

The point I am making about the Americans is that back in 2008 they forced the rest of NATO (who were totally opposed) to agree to offer NATO membership to Ukraine and Georgia.

I don't know about the negotiations within NATO - but it seems a bit far-fetched to claim that the USA was forcing the rest of NATO to offer that. But the key point is: Did the USA force Ukraine and Georgia to request NATO membership? I'm gonna guess that the answer to that is a very firm 'no', and they requested of their own free will (presumably because they were scared stiff of Russia - and it turns out, rightly so)

And don't come that nationalistic self-determination crap

Really? So you think national self-determination is 'crap' do you? In that case, might I ask which country you believe the UK should become subservient to? I assume after all that if you believe self-determination is 'crap' then you also believe that of the UK?

 

[squizzler]

Not that surprising. His own army is struggling to achieve that objective without taking significant casualties and taking far longer than I'm sure Putin had expected. So trying to get the other side to help is an obvious move. Doubt it'll have much effect though.

Oh dear, Mr Putie-wootie. Is your little war not working out as you had hoped?

I think we all know which army is more likely to mutiny.

 

[brad465]

Reports are the Chechen forces are being mobilised soon to help the invasion, which is advantageous to Putin not just because they're fierce fighters, but their causalities are less politically toxic to him. If I was leading the resistance I'd be trying to muster up as much propaganda as possible towards Chechen forces, telling them they're being exploited by Putin for his own moral benefit, where their deaths/injuries are more favourable to Putin than other Russian soliders.

 

[birchesgreen]

Russia Today was still on Freeview channel 234 in the very early hours of this morning, showing damage to areas held by the separatist-held parts of the Dombass region and a street interview with a very old woman there. Why has that channel not been taken down?

Why should it? Arn't we supposed to be the "good guys"?

 

[najaB]

Reports are the Chechen forces are being mobilised soon to help the invasion, which is advantageous to Putin not just because they're fierce fighters, but their causalities are less politically toxic to him.

Though, it does show that things aren't going to plan...

If I was leading the resistance I'd be trying to muster up as much propaganda as possible towards Chechen forces, telling them they're being exploited by Putin for his own moral benefit, where their deaths/injuries are more favourable to Putin than other Russian soliders.

As well as making sure that the man on the Moscow street knows that is happening as it's not going to help the domestic narrative that this invasion has been a good idea.

 

[squizzler]

Reports are the Chechen forces are being mobilised soon to help the invasion, which is advantageous to Putin not just because they're fierce fighters, but their causalities are less politically toxic to him

More likely they are being brought in to shoot any regulars trying to desert the military disaster they are embroiled in.

 

[hst43102]

Though, it does show that things aren't going to plan...

Current reports seem to suggest that Russian military losses are around 10 times greater than that on the Ukrainian side. Hopefully these reports are correct.

 

[tommy2215]

If Putin were to fail in this invasion it would be utterly humiliating for him. Hoping this ends up like Leopoldo Galtieri after the Falklands War.

 

[najaB]

Current reports seem to suggest that Russian military losses are around 10 times greater than that on the Ukrainian side. Hopefully these reports are correct.

While I don't know if I believe a 10:1 ratio, history shows that, all things being equal, it is 'easier' to defend than to attack.

 

[Caboose Class]

I don't know about the negotiations within NATO - but it seems a bit far-fetched to claim that the USA was forcing the rest of NATO to offer that. But the key point is: Did the USA force Ukraine and Georgia to request NATO membership? I'm gonna guess that the answer to that is a very firm 'no', and they requested of their own free will (presumably because they were scared stiff of Russia - and it turns out, rightly so)


Really? So you think national self-determination is 'crap' do you? In that case, might I ask which country you believe the UK should become subservient to? I assume after all that if you believe self-determination is 'crap' then you also believe that of the UK?

You can clue up about Bucharest 2008 here:- https://www.npr.org/2022/01/29/1076193616/ukraine-russia-nato-explainer?t=1645805564701

UK should become subservient to? Hahahaha!! You still don't get it, do you? Empire days are long since gone!!

 

[Simon11]

Current reports seem to suggest that Russian military losses are around 10 times greater than that on the Ukrainian side. Hopefully these reports are correct.

Over 1,000 Russian Soldiers Killed So Far, Says Ukraine

Ukraine's Defence Ministry said on Friday that more than 1,000 Russian servicemen had been killed so far in the Ukrainian conflict. "Russia has not suffered so many casualties during the

www.ndtv.com

Russia lost 450 soldiers and ‘failed to achieve objectives’, says Britain

Russia lost more than 450 army personnel on the first day of full scale war with Ukraine, the defence secretary said on Friday.

www.standard.co.uk

A few reports coming in! Huge looses and shows that maybe Russia army have poor training and equipment?

 

[Caboose Class]

If Putin were to fail in this invasion it would be utterly humiliating for him. Hoping this ends up like Leopoldo Galtieri after the Falklands War.

He won't. Kiev - apologies, Kyiv - will probably fall tonight.

 

[yorksrob]

UK should become subservient to? Hahahaha!! You still don't get it, do you? Empire days are long since gone!!

Clueless nonsense. Ukraine has been self-governing for the last couple of decades, yet hasn't to my knowledge recently been dispossessed of an empire. Same goes for many countries around the world.