Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[Taunton]

I supposed Acton ML was always going to be a big shift - prior to the central section opening, the nearby Central Line from N. Acton was a more attractive option.

Interesting, because the through service is not open yet. Certainly westbound the change at Paddington, including identifying just where the next Acton service actually is, is so tedious and convoluted that it takes more time than the travel saving compared to the Central Line.

 

[Basil Jet]

I supposed Acton ML was always going to be a big shift - prior to the central section opening, the nearby Central Line from N. Acton was a more attractive option.

I reckon the frequency going from 2tph Mon-Sat to 4tph daily had more of an effect than the presence of an extra line to (inconveniently) change to at Paddington.

 

[345 050]

I reckon the frequency going from 2tph Mon-Sat to 4tph daily had more of an effect than the presence of an extra line to (inconveniently) change to at Paddington.

Yes exactly, the 30 minute service wasn't attractive enough to compete with Central line, but now it gets 4tph this becomes almost turn-up-and-go. Competing head to head with Central line, and when through services are introduced it will be a huge game changer for Acton Main Line, substantial savings compared to North Acton/Central line.

 

[Mikey C]

It's real "new" revenue for the railways if there are people making journeys who wouldn't have travelled otherwise, or at least wouldn't have used rail for their trip.

This isn't a railway serving an area which was previously a public transport desert though, or one with infrequent 2 car 150s.

Once the novelty settles down, the vast majority of journeys made will surely be ones previously made on other forms of public transport such as the tube, National Rail or buses, rather than one previous made by private car or new journeys.

 

[Horizon22]

I reckon the frequency going from 2tph Mon-Sat to 4tph daily had more of an effect than the presence of an extra line to (inconveniently) change to at Paddington.

Well yes that too, although I'm sure the connection had at least some impact. Was always odd that Acton ML had been skipped even after West Ealing & Hanwell went up to 4tph, but at least its muh better now.

This isn't a railway serving an area which was previously a public transport desert though, or one with infrequent 2 car 150s.

Once the novelty settles down, the vast majority of journeys made will surely be ones previously made on other forms of public transport such as the tube, National Rail or buses, rather than one previous made by private car or new journeys.

The line has also allowed housing growth in certain parts of London, who will surely be encouraged from the off to travel by public transport.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I prefer expresso

Or even espresso.....

 

[Roger B]

That will also be the big question when HS2 is finally up and running.

Isn't HS2 was supposed to be poaching passengers from existing lines, enabling passenger trains to be thinned on the existing lines, thereby creating more freight paths.
Hence HS2's mantra that it's raison d'etre isn't fast journeys to/from London but increasing capacity. And if you're going to build a new line - much of which would have to be in tunnels anyway because of our congested island (exacerbated by militant Nimbyism) - you might as well build it for speed.
And hopefully this will lead to some transfer from environmentally unfriendly domestic flights.

 

[Acton1991]

Yes exactly, the 30 minute service wasn't attractive enough to compete with Central line, but now it gets 4tph this becomes almost turn-up-and-go. Competing head to head with Central line, and when through services are introduced it will be a huge game changer for Acton Main Line, substantial savings compared to North Acton/Central line.

I am hoping it moves to 6tph in the future. The housing development happening around the station should hopefully help justify it!

 

[eisenach]

Or even espresso.....

... but not if you're French.

 

[trebor79]

... but not if you're French.

Or even Frens

 

[ijmad]

Or even espresso.....

That was the point of the joke I was trying to make...

Anyway, back on Crossrail.

It was mentioned that a 16 week notice period needs to be given to commence Stage 5B- (through running from Reading/Shenfield into the core). I note that 16 weeks from today is Nov 10. Does that mean the optimistic suggestion of Sep 12 is now firmly off the table? Unless the notice period has actually been activated, just not made public.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Isn't HS2 was supposed to be poaching passengers from existing lines, enabling passenger trains to be thinned on the existing lines, thereby creating more freight paths.
Hence HS2's mantra that it's raison d'etre isn't fast journeys to/from London but increasing capacity. And if you're going to build a new line - much of which would have to be in tunnels anyway because of our congested island (exacerbated by militant Nimbyism) - you might as well build it for speed.
And hopefully this will lead to some transfer from environmentally unfriendly domestic flights.

This is off-topic so I'll be brief. Many of the protagonists of HS2 have been claiming since day 1 that the project has a business case. Any business case - as opposed to a socio-economic case - would include an argument that new, additional revenue generated either directly or indirectly would be adequate to finance all the new, additional operating costs of the new line. That equation is independent of anyone's opinion about the purpose and social value of HS2.

 

[kevin_roche]

Last Sunday there was a test to see if trains could transition successfully at each end of the Central Operating Section.

I saw there were a few delays and cancellations, but I can't tell if these were significant or not. Does anyone know how the test went?

 

[Horizon22]

Last Sunday there was a test to see if trains could transition successfully at each end of the Central Operating Section.

Elizabeth line test on signalling issue to decide if longer journeys can start

Next week TfL will take a 'no/go decision' as to whether it can run trains from Shenfield, Heathrow and Reading into the new central London section this Autumn

www.mylondon.news

I saw there were a few delays and cancellations, but I can't tell if these were significant or not. Does anyone know how the test went?

It appears some delays were with issues from the Anglia & Western side rather than anything in the Central section. For instance KRS was in place (due to the hot weather) which meant several points were out of use and speed restrictions had a resultant knock on impact.

Practically every train transitioned into CBTC as expected, a big improvement on previous trials although known “problem” trains weren’t running.

There are I think 3-4 more trial Sundays coming up.

This is off-topic so I'll be brief. Many of the protagonists of HS2 have been claiming since day 1 that the project has a business case. Any business case - as opposed to a socio-economic case - would include an argument that new, additional revenue generated either directly or indirectly would be adequate to finance all the new, additional operating costs of the new line. That equation is independent of anyone's opinion about the purpose and social value of HS2.

The original plan includes broad aims yo reduce domestic air travel too and increase the area within a 2hr reach of London which will see people shift from cars too. The route is being gradually watered down so we’ll see how that goes in time.

As it’s a) almost solely in London, b) running for the most part on existing lines, I don’t think Crossrail / Elizabeth Line can be seen in the same way - more a capacity uplift for expected growth although maybe there will be some modest modal shifts.

 

[kevin_roche]

It appears some delays were with issues from the Anglia & Western side rather than anything in the Central section. For instance KRS was in place (due to the hot weather) which meant several points were out of use and speed restrictions had a resultant knock on impact.

Practically every train transitioned into CBTC as expected, a big improvement on previous trials although known “problem” trains weren’t running.

Thank you for the update.

 

[AlbertBeale]

It appears some delays were with issues from the Anglia & Western side rather than anything in the Central section. For instance KRS was in place (due to the hot weather) which meant several points were out of use and speed restrictions had a resultant knock on impact.

Practically every train transitioned into CBTC as expected, a big improvement on previous trials although known “problem” trains weren’t running.

There are I think 3-4 more trial Sundays coming up.

Sorry - what's KRS?

Isn't HS2 was supposed to be poaching passengers from existing lines, enabling passenger trains to be thinned on the existing lines, thereby creating more freight paths.
Hence HS2's mantra that it's raison d'etre isn't fast journeys to/from London but increasing capacity. And if you're going to build a new line - much of which would have to be in tunnels anyway because of our congested island (exacerbated by militant Nimbyism) - you might as well build it for speed.
And hopefully this will lead to some transfer from environmentally unfriendly domestic flights.

But by building for such high speed you remove any positive environmental benefit - it'll be net carbon positive until the end of the century ... and by then we're toast!

Whether a similar "over-specification" (in environmental terms) also applies to Crossrail is an interesting thought...

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry - what's KRS?

Key Route Strategy - where certain junctions / lines are not used in very hot or very cold weather to reduce the risk of infrastructure failures, principally points.

But by building for such high speed you remove any positive environmental benefit

how come building for high speed is less environmentally friendly than at conventional speed?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Key Route Strategy - where certain junctions / lines are not used in very hot or very cold weather to reduce the risk of infrastructure failures, principally points.

Thanks!

how come building for high speed is less environmentally friendly than at conventional speed?

Routing constraints - curves, gradients, etc - on very high speed lines require more heavy duty construction than slower routes hugging/following the landscape, and are likely to require more tunneling. You're also less able to swing round away from sensitive sites, hence either destroying them or needing yet more tunneling.

And running at high speed is less energy efficient too.

Furthermore, if speed isn't the main thing, just capacity, then there's more scope to do add-ons to some of the existing routes rather than complete new build, hence cutting the overall destructiveness.

 

[Roger B]

This is off-topic so I'll be brief. Many of the protagonists of HS2 have been claiming since day 1 that the project has a business case. Any business case - as opposed to a socio-economic case - would include an argument that new, additional revenue generated either directly or indirectly would be adequate to finance all the new, additional operating costs of the new line. That equation is independent of anyone's opinion about the purpose and social value of HS2.

I'm not convinced that your statement about business cases is universally true, nor the point you're trying to make, since significant socio-economic benefits can and often do accrue from investments - eg eg time saving, carbon reduction, changed land use, enhanced real estate values, etc. A business case that doesn't include such real-world and quantifiable benefits is surely an artificial construct of little value / meaning.
Consideration of socio-economic benefits appears to be widely accepted for significant transport infrastructure investments, and is reflected within the DfT WebTAG appraisal methodology.
For completeness, it's worth noting that as HS2 will bring a greater proportion of the country within a 2-hour reach of london by train, it will cause modal shift from air and road to rail, generating additional revenue - as well as socio-economic benefits. As will the backfill of 'legacy' routes with freight paths. (Mods: happy for this to discussion to be moved to new thread if you think appropriate).

 

[Falcon1200]

And running at high speed is less energy efficient too.

OTOH running at high speed is more efficient for stock and traincrew utilisation, and passengers' time.

Furthermore, if speed isn't the main thing, just capacity, then there's more scope to do add-ons to some of the existing routes rather than complete new build, hence cutting the overall destructiveness.

The West Coast Route Modernisation project demonstrated how difficult it is to upgrade existing routes without causing huge disruption, and at the end of it we still only have a 125mph (in parts) mixed traffic railway.

 

[345 050]

Do we have any understanding of which other sections of lines have been substantially relieved by Crossrail. I presume by the large crowds always at Paddington that the Underground there must be quieter - but which lines? Likewise are there other odd ones with less demand now, such as the DLR from Canary Wharf to Bank?

Regarding the poorly presented announcements (loads of them, eg manual announcements talking over automated ones), who manages the station staff. Are there supervisors, or even stationmasters of traditional form at each station? Have the announcements been imposed from above by someone, which the local management are not allowed to vary, and get performance-checked on their frequency?

Bringing this back on topic, I had expected the manual announcements to be phased out, automatic announcements ARE ready, they just keep being overridden.

Is it just me or are they getting louder if anything. And agree, some of them are very aggressive. Some are friendly, some less so.

 

[Cowley]

Yes let’s leave the HS2 discussion for the HS2 threads from here please.

 

[Acton1991]

Bringing this back on topic, I had expected the manual announcements to be phased out, automatic announcements ARE ready, they just keep being overridden.

Is it just me or are they getting louder if anything. And agree, some of them are very aggressive. Some are friendly, some less so.

In my experience, the manual announcements run alongside the automatic ones. So it's just a constant barrage of noise.

 

[Bald Rick]

Routing constraints - curves, gradients, etc - on very high speed lines require more heavy duty construction than slower routes hugging/following the landscape, and are likely to require more tunneling. You're also less able to swing round away from sensitive sites, hence either destroying them or needing yet more tunneling.

But routes that are shorter need less concrete and steel. And therefore less carbon, no?

sorry @yorkie

 

[ijmad]

But routes that are shorter need less concrete and steel. And therefore less carbon, no?

sorry @yorkie

Instead of HS2 we could just run more coaches on the M40, barely any steel needed at all for that

 

[matt_world2004]

I reckon the frequency going from 2tph Mon-Sat to 4tph daily had more of an effect than the presence of an extra line to (inconveniently) change to at Paddington.

Has the frequency to Acton mainline gone up. I always thought it was every 30 minutes still

 

[Acton1991]

Has the frequency to Acton mainline gone up. I always thought it was every 30 minutes still

It’s every 15 mins now

 

[345 050]

It’s every 15 mins now

Basically all Heathrow services now serve Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell. Reading services still skip these stops.

In my head, I thought Reading services might eventually call at West Ealing, to connect with Greenford, but don't hold me to that.

 

[Benjwri]

Basically all Heathrow services now serve Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell. Reading services still skip these stops.

In my head, I thought Reading services might eventually call at West Ealing, to connect with Greenford, but don't hold me to that.

They won’t, the track access consultation has been published for the final running at 24tph, only the Heathrow services have the scope to stop at Acton or West Ealing.

 

[345 050]

They won’t, the track access consultation has been published for the final running at 24tph, only the Heathrow services have the scope to stop at Acton or West Ealing.

Any other revelations?