Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[ar10642]

I see that. I just see that as a passenger, we have DOO trains already, and they seem to be far better when there is another member of staff on board.

Really? I can't really tell any difference between being on a Thameslink or a Southern service on the same route.

 

[the sniper]

Has it been clearly stated what duties this referred-to second person will be expected to perform?

I've read yorksrob's suggestion again, it would seem obvious that he didn't included a job description with his idea in that post.

With regards to the ever present DOO argument, I think that the industry should sweeten the pill by ensuring that all trains in service have a second person on board, even if not a guard.

 

[yorksrob]

Really? I can't really tell any difference between being on a Thameslink or a Southern service on the same route.

Perhaps that means the staff aren't pulling their weight in that area then.

In northern land, the guards are always out and about and visible in my experience, so I would expect such a role to reflect that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2022 ==

I've read yorksrob's suggestion again, it would seem obvious that he didn't included a job description with his idea in that post.

Indeed, my suggestions are my own ramblings and not related to anything being offered!

 

[big_rig]

I wonder if the RMT ever expected NR to basically pull the offer now the strike for next week has been announced. They have been careful not to mention that in their announcements for the 27th. One of the ironies of all this is that the nationalised railway is a much worse employer to negotiate with than the quasi-private one we used to have.

 

[Moonshot]

I wonder if the RMT ever expected NR to basically pull the offer now the strike for next week has been announced. They have been careful not to mention that in their announcements for the 27th. One of the ironies of all this is that the nationalised railway is a much worse employer to negotiate with than the quasi-private one we used to have.

Indeed......which makes you wonder why Unions want the entire show to be nationalised when it's far easier to get pay deals sorted with the private sector.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Indeed......which makes you wonder why Unions want the entire show to be nationalised when it's far easier to get pay deals sorted with the private sector.

Can't have a national strike against the Tories though can you!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed......which makes you wonder why Unions want the entire show to be nationalised when it's far easier to get pay deals sorted with the private sector.

This is all part of playing the political card. I do wonder what percentage of rail staff with the RMT as their union share exactly the same political beliefs as their union leadership appear to espouse?

 

[Moonshot]

Can't have a national strike against the Tories though can you!

I don't see your point?

 

[Falcon1200]

With regards to the ever present DOO argument, I think that the industry should sweeten the pill by ensuring that all trains in service have a second person on board, even if not a guard.

Is it not the case now that all DOO/DCO trains are booked to have a second person on board ? It certainly is in Scotland, where during the recent Guards' dispute no DOO trains ran, as there were no ATEs.

As a TOC shift Controller don't know. All I have had from my union is one letter enclosing guff and a ballot paper. I have heard from word of mouth that the DfT are proposing increasing my weekly contract from 35 to 40 hours. That is an expectation that I will work 5 hours a week or 20 hours a month for free if it is true, and is not a pay increase by any stretch of the the imagination.

So, does that mean 5 hours extra per week at the same annual rate of pay, ie a reduction in the hourly rate, or 5 hours extra paid at the existing rate, ie more hours worked but more pay earned as a result ?

 

[XAM2175]

Is it not the case now that all DOO/DCO trains are booked to have a second person on board ? It certainly is in Scotland, where during the recent Guards' dispute no DOO trains ran, as there were no ATEs.

No, that's the Strathclyde Manning Agreement, which is limited to the area the name suggests.

There is a similar scheme on Southern now following the replacement of guards with On-board Supervisors, but elsewhere DOO genuinely means that the service is operated by the driver alone.

 

[yorksrob]

Is it not the case now that all DOO/DCO trains are booked to have a second person on board ? It certainly is in Scotland, where during the recent Guards' dispute no DOO trains ran, as there were no ATEs.

Not universally, I don't think. I think some London suburban services don't have a second person, but I'm not sure.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wonder if the RMT ever expected NR to basically pull the offer now the strike for next week has been announced. They have been careful not to mention that in their announcements for the 27th. One of the ironies of all this is that the nationalised railway is a much worse employer to negotiate with than the quasi-private one we used to have.

Indeed, people forget, or are unaware of how hardball BR often played things with the unions.

 

[Glenn1969]

When will Realtime Trains and other journey planners reflect the fact that no London Northwestern and West Midlands trains are running on Saturday 30th? I hope the trams can cope with the numbers trying to get to The Hawthorns for the Commonwealth Games action at Sandwell for which I have morning tickets

 

[Richardr]

It would be quite easy to prove the damages if a member of frontline staff fails to work their notice period. At the very least there would be the additional cost of e.g. time and a half overtime from getting someone else to cover.

Whether companies actually do enforce the notice period is a different matter.

In your example, the damages are the "half" - they would obviously have been paying someone the normal salary, so that doesn't count as an additional cost or damages. Thus the only cost in that case are the additional overtime costs in the period it takes to get a replacement at normal time - less if there is sufficient capacity in the workforce that additional overtime is not required - and only up to the time it is reasonable that they can recruit someone new.

 

[XAM2175]

When will Realtime Trains and other journey planners reflect the fact that no London Northwestern and West Midlands trains are running on Saturday 30th?

When the operators upload the changes to the scheduling system.

 

[Watershed]

In your example, the damages are the "half" - they would obviously have been paying someone the normal salary, so that doesn't count as an additional cost or damages. Thus the only cost in that case are the additional overtime costs in the period it takes to get a replacement at normal time - less if there is sufficient capacity in the workforce that additional overtime is not required - and only up to the time it is reasonable that they can recruit someone new.

Quite - but in the context of railway roles requiring a long period of training to be fully productive, it's quite plausible that it might prove impossible to fully replace someone, even with a 6 month notice period.

 

[306024]

When the operators upload the changes to the scheduling system.

Point of pedantry, it is Network Rail who publish the schedules which then appear in other data feeds such as Realtime Trains.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't see your point?

I think the cynics amongst us suspect that one (one of many) reason the unions love having a nationalised railway is the ability to have a national strike against a government they don't like. I.e. they don't like Tories so can call a national strike to try make them look bad.

Just a tongue in cheek joke.

 

[Moonshot]

I think the cynics amongst us suspect that one (one of many) reason the unions love having a nationalised railway is the ability to have a national strike against a government they don't like. I.e. they don't like Tories so can call a national strike to try make them look bad.

Just a tongue in cheek joke.

Oh you old cynic lol. Probably not wrong however. To be fair however, this current government is probably one of the worst I have ever known. I ve no political axe to grind myself, as I view all political figures with disdain. We are definitely lacking professional leadership irrespective of the colour of government. This is manifesting itself in the rail industry currently..... nobody seems to have a vision to actually get out of the current difficulties.

 

[Vespa]

I think the cynics amongst us suspect that one (one of many) reason the unions love having a nationalised railway is the ability to have a national strike against a government they don't like. I.e. they don't like Tories so can call a national strike to try make them look bad.

Just a tongue in cheek joke.

Reading this I'm reminded of 1979 famous Winter of Discontent under a Labour government which has since been used as a stick to beat the Unions ever since, because they demanded massive pay claim during a high inflation period, sabotaging the economy and forcing the Labour government to apply for an IMF loan, such was the backlash it ushered in 18 years of continuous Conservative government 1979-1997 until Labour returned under Tony Blair by reforming the Labour constitution to make it electable again.

Memories are long, it feels like history is repeating itself again.

 

[dk1]

Memories are long, it feels like history is repeating itself again.

I find this with many things now. I think it’s just getting older that makes it more frequent. See what you mean though.

 

[Need2]

Reading this I'm reminded of 1979 famous Winter of Discontent under a Labour government which has since been used as a stick to beat the Unions ever since, because they demanded massive pay claim during a high inflation period, sabotaging the economy and forcing the Labour government to apply for an IMF loan, such was the backlash it ushered in 18 years of continuous Conservative government 1979-1997 until Labour returned under Tony Blair by reforming the Labour constitution to make it electable again.

Memories are long, it feels like history is repeating itself again.

So the pay claim was the only thing to ruin our economy?
Seems very strange that MP’s even now will not state categorically that high wage claims WILL ’inflate’ inflation. All they say is it ‘might’ do and ‘could’ do.
There is no proof as far as I can see, just supposition.

 

[mandub]

Reading this I'm reminded of 1979 famous Winter of Discontent under a Labour government which has since been used as a stick to beat the Unions ever since, because they demanded massive pay claim during a high inflation period, sabotaging the economy and forcing the Labour government to apply for an IMF loan, such was the backlash it ushered in 18 years of continuous Conservative government 1979-1997 until Labour returned under Tony Blair by reforming the Labour constitution to make it electable again.

Memories are long, it feels like history is repeating itself again.

The IMF loan was in 1976, in response to a run on the pound.
And was repaid before the 1979 election.

It's 40+ years ago anyway and not a parallel for industrial relations/inflation today.

 

[Class 170101]

Stockport is showing virtually no trains on the 27th. Hope it's just a glitch and it will be open albeit limited service.

All services are running via Crewe vice Stoke / Macclesfield

it will be none. There were none in the last RMT strike and they’ll be none for this one. Too many signal boxes to staff up.

Indeed VT services are in but running via Heald Green (vice Stockport).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2022 ==

It certainly appears that the NR signallers are being used by the RMT as a weapon for a battle with the TOCs.

Surprised its only been full strike action as opposed to work to rule and an overtime ban, especially where signallers are concerned.

I heard they could do just as much damage with an overtime ban without losing regular pay.

 

[JonathanH]

Surprised its only been full strike action as opposed to work to rule and an overtime ban, especially where signallers are concerned.

The overtime ban and work to rule would prevent the striking staff from making up the pay they lose through striking.

I heard they could do just as much damage with an overtime ban without losing regular pay.

Yes, in terms of disruption, but it wouldn't be as newsworthy as a strike. As noted in other threads there is quite a bit of disruption on the railway already from operators not being able to run full timetables.

 

[Class 170101]

The overtime ban and work to rule would prevent the striking staff from making up the pay they lose through striking.

I was thinking of no striking then they would not lose pay just the madate to have a strike if they wanted (which most have) so no money would have been lost.

 

[Thermal]

It certainly appears that the NR signallers are being used by the RMT as a weapon for a battle with the TOCs.

The signalling grade do seem to be in the greatest position of strength. I wonder if the RMT could leverage that further.

Some very rough maths from (probably inaccurate) google suggests there may be roughly 5,000 signallers out of 40,000 strikers at a 1 in 8 ratio.

I'm not a lawyer and probably talking unworkable rubbish, but could the RMT keep signallers on strike whilst allowing everyone else to work. Temporarily up the union subs by say £50 a month, which could be used to pay each signaller £400 in strike pay a month indefinitely.

That could buy them a few days without trains each month for a £50 cost to each member. It would probably require re-balloting with very careful wording to incorporate all of the RMT's issues into the signallers ballot to make it legal etc, but could strengthen the RMT's position if this is going to turn into a drawn out saga.

It may also keep the signallers onside whilst fighting for other grades as the way to end such action would be to make the signallers in particular an offer they can't turn down.

 

[Vespa]

The IMF loan was in 1976, in response to a run on the pound.
And was repaid before the 1979 election.

It's 40+ years ago anyway and not a parallel for industrial relations/inflation today.

Correct it was paid back 1979, the repercussions of it was division within the Labour party, the parallels of today is the unions making impossible demands with an inflation of 13.30% at the time, granting pay increases of 17% (Ford Workers who succeeded) to 40% (Lorry Drivers didn't win it, they got less) with more demand put in by other industries Unions would have fueled hyperinflation as everybody would be chasing inflation an ever increasing cost which would come from cost being passed on to the public.

The Winter of Discontent contributed to Thatcher getting voted into government by strike weary public.

Now if Unions are planning to create a "Summer of Discontent" the public will very quickly lose sympathy for the strikers especially when prolonged and political in nature.

 

[ar10642]

I'm not a lawyer and probably talking unworkable rubbish, but could the RMT keep signallers on strike whilst allowing everyone else to work. Temporarily up the union subs by say £50 a month, which could be used to pay each signaller £400 in strike pay a month indefinitely.

Meanwhile the passengers move onto other transport and don't bother coming back.

 

[Fokx]

Meanwhile the passengers move onto other transport and don't bother coming back.

Except they do, Covid proved that.

Leisure travellers have excelled in numbers to the point that most companies are struggling to transport them, particularly at weekends. Those who use the train because it’s the fastest, most convenient way to their place of work will return. (I appreciate there’s an increase in working from home for those that choose this route, but that was always going to be the case and has been predicted since the 80’s)