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Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

AM9

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... Also as previously mentioned the trouble with EMR IC services is that they are behind Thameslink , then 360 EMR services.
That's exactly how mixed service out from central London is supposed to fit together. In this case the TL trains (fasts) pick up passengers from intermediates like West Hampstead and St Albans travelling beyond Bedford. They can not take the slows until, after St Albans - which in practice means Harpenden South junction, so if the service is running normally, the Corby will have nearly caught up by the time it makes its stop at the Airport. Similarly, the earlier TL fast is arriving at Bedford ready to deliver its passengers picked up from Flitwick etc., who can board the Corby there. The same happens with the Corby picking up from Wellingborough for changing at Kettering and onwards northbound, which is eased slightly by the use of the slow platforms at KET, but that increases the minimum connecting ti,e for passengers, so it is a compromise.
Any delay can cause this to breakdown including late up EMR trains delaying down TL services from taking the fasts at Carlton Road Junction crossover. Overall, the MML working timetable is a work of art as much of the route is operated as sections of two track railway, yet the number of significant delays is relatively small. Equally, there is very little chance of speeding up any of the three types of train that use the lines without making the operation far less reliable.
 
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baz962

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That's exactly how mixed service out from central London is supposed to fit together. In this case the TL trains (fasts) pick up passengers from intermediates like West Hampstead and St Albans travelling beyond Bedford. They can not take the slows until, after St Albans - which in practice means Harpenden South junction, so if the service is running normally, the Corby will have nearly caught up by the time it makes its stop at the Airport. Similarly, the earlier TL fast is arriving at Bedford ready to deliver its passengers picked up from Flitwick etc., who can board the Corby there. The same happens with the Corby picking up from Wellingborough for changing at Kettering and onwards northbound, which is eased slightly by the use of the slow platforms at KET, but that increases the minimum connecting ti,e for passengers, so it is a compromise.
Any delay can cause this to breakdown including late up EMR trains delaying down TL services from taking the fasts at Carlton Road Junction crossover. Overall, the MML working timetable is a work of art as much of the route is operated as sections of two track railway, yet the number of significant delays is relatively small. Equally, there is very little chance of speeding up any of the three types of train that use the lines without making the operation far less reliable.
Of course. My point being though that you almost certainly won't take much off a journey with the 810's just because of the acceleration. Certainly not enough to write home about. And also replying to the poster about Nottinghams being slow.
 

AM9

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Of course. My point being though that you almost certainly won't take much off a journey with the 810's just because of the acceleration. Certainly not enough to write home about. And also replying to the poster about Nottinghams being slow.
I suppose the next opportunity would be for a Corby/Leicester service that splits at Kettering, - whenever the wires allow a 360 or similar to run through to Leicester. :rolleyes:
 

baz962

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I suppose the next opportunity would be for a Corby/Leicester service that splits at Kettering, - whenever the wires allow a 360 or similar to run through to Leicester. :rolleyes:
I hope not :frown:
 

JonathanH

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I suppose the next opportunity would be for a Corby/Leicester service that splits at Kettering, - whenever the wires allow a 360 or similar to run through to Leicester. :rolleyes:
That particular idea has been debunked a few times as not being practical, because the path it would need to take from Kettering is effectively the same one as the second long distance train takes, and there is a need to accommodate freight.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-bedford-to-leeds.217252/page-2#post-5135116
 
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AM9

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That particular idea has been debunked a few times as not being practical, because the path it would need to take from Kettering is effectively the same one as the second long distance train takes, and there is a need to accommodate freight.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-bedford-to-leeds.217252/page-2#post-5135116
OK, but by the time there are wires to Leicester, relative demand from both freight and passengers may change. Until then, the mainline service to Leicester and beyond will just stay as they are and 73mph for the slowest service to Leicester isn't bad, especially when compared with London to Norwich on its faster services which average about 65mph.
 

Jozhua

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I've taken the 1hr 35 trains to Nottingham and found they often get delayed.

The 1hr 45 seems to have a lot of slack in the timetable, trundles along at many points when heading back up North.

Definitely a bit of a wierd dance going on there. I've started traveling down to London a lot for work, so a bit of journey time saving would be great for me, but at the same time, a comfortable journey is also a big plus!
 

BJames

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Not all are slow. The xx05 from st pancras are generally slow and the xx35 are usually fast. The 09.35 from st pancras is 1hr 32 . Also as previously mentioned the trouble with EMR IC services is that they are behind Thameslink , then 360 EMR services. Oop North after Trent they quite often catch a regional or can get held outside Nottingham waiting for one to come out.
Before the timetable revamp I would actively avoid the slows with their multitude of calls including Luton Bedford etc - but it's only around a 10-15 minute max time cost over the xx35 so tend to just go for the cheapest advance option now.
I've taken the 1hr 35 trains to Nottingham and found they often get delayed.

The 1hr 45 seems to have a lot of slack in the timetable, trundles along at many points when heading back up North.

Definitely a bit of a wierd dance going on there. I've started traveling down to London a lot for work, so a bit of journey time saving would be great for me, but at the same time, a comfortable journey is also a big plus!
Sometimes yes - but does often depend which one! 1305 has 7 mins pathing allowance but is regularly late out of St Pancras following an 11 minute turnaround, as it's regularly late in to St Pancras and departs from 4a right at the end. It's probably my most common service back to Nottingham and it is rarely wildly late, and often does make up some time, but it's commonly late boarding and often boarding against the flow of people coming off the train.
 

Inthewest

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Photo of Class 810.
I didn't see if this was posted before.
 

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Mikw

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That's exactly how mixed service out from central London is supposed to fit together. In this case the TL trains (fasts) pick up passengers from intermediates like West Hampstead and St Albans travelling beyond Bedford. They can not take the slows until, after St Albans - which in practice means Harpenden South junction, so if the service is running normally, the Corby will have nearly caught up by the time it makes its stop at the Airport. Similarly, the earlier TL fast is arriving at Bedford ready to deliver its passengers picked up from Flitwick etc., who can board the Corby there. The same happens with the Corby picking up from Wellingborough for changing at Kettering and onwards northbound, which is eased slightly by the use of the slow platforms at KET, but that increases the minimum connecting ti,e for passengers, so it is a compromise.
Any delay can cause this to breakdown including late up EMR trains delaying down TL services from taking the fasts at Carlton Road Junction crossover. Overall, the MML working timetable is a work of art as much of the route is operated as sections of two track railway, yet the number of significant delays is relatively small. Equally, there is very little chance of speeding up any of the three types of train that use the lines without making the operation far less reliable.
Yep, i use the line regularly and the timetable works well for the most part - it's amazing how it fits together, just.
 

AJDesiro

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Looks nice, though Hitachi's avoidance of plug doors on the AT300s is still strange...
They use a rather odd system, the doors seem to still produce a full seal, though not using plugs, but instead using pneumatics to push the doors against the body - apparently they do that on the Shinkansen too, so there must be some sort of logic to it!
 

Energy

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They use a rather odd system, the doors seem to still produce a full seal, though not using plugs, but instead using pneumatics to push the doors against the body - apparently they do that on the Shinkansen too, so there must be some sort of logic to it!
Indeed, they have an inflatable seal around the door to stop it rattling, though on the 385s they used normal plug doors. Sliding ones do have a speed advantage (which is why they appear on the 700s and 376s) but that wouldn't really matter in this case. When the 800s were first announced they did like to promote Hitachi's bullet train heritage, perhaps the inflatable seals were the only bit to actually come across :lol:
 

AM9

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Indeed, they have an inflatable seal around the door to stop it rattling, though on the 385s they used normal plug doors. Sliding ones do have a speed advantage (which is why they appear on the 700s and 376s) but that wouldn't really matter in this case. When the 800s were first announced they did like to promote Hitachi's bullet train heritage, perhaps the inflatable seals were the only bit to actually come across :lol:
The Desiro Citys (classes 700, 707 & 717) have sliding doors for speed of access through very wide openings. They are not however sublect to the normal sliding door loud 'bang' when the pressure wave from a train passing on an adjacent track. The class 395s have the same two stage closure with the inflatable seal which seems to work well. The disadvantages of plug doors are speed of closure and the probability of the train being out of gauge if a door fails to close, making recovery operationally difficult.
 

Rick1984

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When on a class 80x on the ECML you can here the door "unplug" as the the train reaches low speed. From what I remember the doors release very quickly.
 

Bald Rick

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Indeed, they have an inflatable seal around the door to stop it rattling

It’s not inflatable, it’s mechanical, with a cam that pushes the door against the seal above (AIUI) 5mph. (Hence the clunk). It’s the same system on the Shinkansen as you say.
 

fgwrich

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Looks nice, though Hitachi's avoidance of plug doors on the AT300s is still strange...

Hitachi considers Plug Doors to be a European thing, and deems them to be unreliable. I believe it took a lot of back and forth to get them included on the 385s, including demonstrations from IFE (Knorr-Bremse - who supply pretty much everyone across Europe), that they are reliable enough to the used.
 

Energy

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It’s not inflatable, it’s mechanical, with a cam that pushes the door against the seal above (AIUI) 5mph. (Hence the clunk). It’s the same system on the Shinkansen as you say.
Interesting

Looking further into it the same system is on the 395s but the cam doesn't release until the doors are open so the IEP specification included:

The design of the IEP Trains must include measures that allow the external passenger doors to be prepared for opening prior to the IEP Train stopping at a platform.
Hitachi considers Plug Doors to be a European thing, and deems them to be unreliable. I believe it took a lot of back and forth to get them included on the 385s, including demonstrations from IFE (Knorr-Bremse - who supply pretty much everyone across Europe), that they are reliable enough to the used.
Seems strange that decades of use across Europe on high speed trains isn't enough evidence, and that it isn't immediately obvious that the door Hitachi use is over complicated.
 

AM9

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Interesting

Looking further into it the same system is on the 395s but the cam doesn't release until the doors are open so the IEP specification included:

The design of the IEP Trains must include measures that allow the external passenger doors to be prepared for opening prior to the IEP Train stopping at a platform.

Seems strange that decades of use across Europe on high speed trains isn't enough evidence, and that it isn't immediately obvious that the door Hitachi use is over complicated.
I suspect that the UK out-of-gauge issue is much more of an issue than with the more generous clearance of most mainland European lines.
 

Snow1964

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pokemonsuper9

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DfT has published 2023-2024 Abellio East Midlands Business plan commitments, so relevant to introduction of 810s


The updated franchise / management contract is also available

Looks like in relation to 810s:
38.1 For the purpose of this Business Plan Commitment:
(a) "MSA" means the manufacturing and supply agreement in respect of the New Five Car BMUs between (1) Hitachi Rail Limited (a company incorporated in England and Wales with company number 05598549 and whose registered address is at 7 th Floor, One New Ludgate, 60 Ludgate Hill, London, EC4M 7AW) ("Hitachi Rail"); (2) Rock Rail East Midlands Plc (a company incorporated in England and Wales with company number 12096266 and whose registered address is at Capital Tower, 91 Waterloo Road, London, SE1 8RT) ("Rock Rail"); and (3) the Operator dated 16 August 2019;

(b) “New Five Car BMUs” means one hundred and sixty five (165) new bi-mode vehicles formed into thirty three (33) five car units as referred to in Table 2 (Specified additional Rolling Stock) at Appendix 1 (The Composition of the Train Fleet) to Chapter 4.3 (The Rolling Stock) and references to a “New Five Car BMU” shall be construed accordingly; and

(c) “Rolling Stock Lease” means the rolling stock operating lease between (1) Rock Rail and (2) the Operator in respect of the New Five Car BMUs dated 16 August 2019. 38.2 Subject to the provisions and protections of paragraphs 3.1, 4.1 and 5.1 of Chapter 7.8 (Fleet Replacement Programme and Capital Works Programme) (which (for the avoidance of doubt) the Parties acknowledge shall apply following any change to the FRP Assumptions), the Operator shall use all reasonable endeavours to award PreProvisional Acceptance to Hitachi for the first Class 810 Unit by 1st September 2023, or such other date as may be agreed between the parties to the MSA.
a different document has much of the above but splits at "all reasonable endeavours"
12.1 For the purpose of this Business Plan Commitment:
(...) all reasonable endeavours to help enable Hitachi Rail to achieve the first on track testing of a New Five Car BMU unit by no later than [REDACTED] , or such other date as may be agreed between the parties to the MSA.

Bit about Etches Park upgrades for 810s. Don't know what most of this means but someone might.
39.2 Subject to the provisions and protections of paragraphs 3.1, 4.1 and 5.1 of Chapter 7.8 (Fleet Replacement Programme and Capital Works Programme) (which (for the avoidance of doubt) the Parties acknowledge shall apply following any change to the FRP Assumptions), the Operator shall:
(a) by no later than [REDACTED]:
(i) complete construction, procurement or installation to GRIP 6 (or equivalent) of all the Work Packages (with the exception of the Vehicle Equipment Measurement System (VEMS) Work Package, needed for the completion of the Derby Etches Park North Shed Works; and
(ii) deliver completion of the physical (Civils) works to GRIP 6 (or equivalent) of the Vehicle Equipment Measurement System (VEMS) Work Package and any other pre installation preparatory works necessary and possible for the completion of the Derby Etches Park North Works - VEMS;
(iii) deliver completion of the physical works to GRIP 6 (or equivalent) of the remaining Work Packages needed for the completion of the Derby Etches Park South Shed Works;
Some data about 810 capacity and stuff
I probably missed something in the 500 page one.
 

AM9

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Plug doors have been working fine in the UK for years.

Lease expiry date is a little close!
I didn't say that they weren't. However, with certain types of failure, they can be stuck open where that would cause the train to be out of gauge and if mechanics weren't available on location, the train may be prevented from returning to depot. That is a problem that doesn't exist with sliding doors. So apart from a cosmetic PoV, plug doors don't offer anything useful over sliding doors that pull hard against the seal.
 

Supercoss

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Whilst acceptance trials are planned for test track and then ECML ( overhead line rated 100mph+)
Training paths are planned on MML
one unit out based Kettering
one unit out based Derby
3A15 Kettering to Kentish Town
3A16 Kentish Town Leicester Derby
3A17 Derby Leicester Kettering

3A25 Derby Corby Wellingborough
3A26 Wellingborough Corby Chesterfield
3A27 Chesterfield Ambergate Derby
 

Matt1981

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Looks like in relation to 810s:

a different document has much of the above but splits at "all reasonable endeavours"


Bit about Etches Park upgrades for 810s. Don't know what most of this means but someone might.

Some data about 810 capacity and stuff

I probably missed something in the 500 page one.
Regarding the work at Etches Park, GRIP 6 means construction stage, so I would deem that to mean construction on site completed, although completion of handover and compilation of as built drawings not necessarily required to be completed by that date.
 

Archie810

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Indeed, they have an inflatable seal around the door to stop it rattling, though on the 385s they used normal plug doors. Sliding ones do have a speed advantage (which is why they appear on the 700s and 376s) but that wouldn't really matter in this case. When the 800s were first announced they did like to promote Hitachi's bullet train heritage, perhaps the inflatable seals were the only bit to actually come across :lol:
might be that sliding doors are lighter and cheaper
 

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