ASLEF - LNER drivers to strike every Sat & Sun for 3 months from 31 Aug - Now called off

[TreacleMiller]

being devils advocate, Reagans action in 1981...

Which was legal in the US. It isn't here. So...

 

[Goldfish62]

Do we know that it was him that called the strike? I think it's notable that ASLEF central (or at least Mick Whelan) has been very quiet (at least far as I can tell)...

Yes, I think that's a possibility. It of course wouldn't be the first time that a general secretary has struggled to control their National Executive. Bit like PM's and their ministers really.

This is a long running dispute, which as I understand it, has been balloted for seperately.

How much ‘knocking heads together’ does one company need?

This is aimed at LNER, not the government, who were the main antagonists during the last dispute… so I fail to see how they’re in the slightest part comparable or related.

I'm sorry that you can't see how it's all related.

 

[Horizon22]

Maybe so, I know of one driver at Northern that was fed up by the end. However, thankfully, mandates for industrial action are granted by a secret ballot meaning that if a driver wishes to vote against they can do so safely. It's also requires a turnout of 50% and at least 40% of all those entitled to vote (so not just those that do vote) must vote in favour. Mandates must also be refreshed every six months so if anyone has changed their mind they can vote on the issue regularly.

And if I recall, the previous mandates had a) high turnout and b) were hugely in favour of strike action.

Do we know that it was him that called the strike? I think it's notable that ASLEF central (or at least Mick Whelan) has been very quiet (at least far as I can tell)...

It’s definitely not been the best PR - as some senior ASLEF officials are reported to say - to have strike action days after a pay deal has been announced.

That’s not to say the LNER issues aren’t genuine but people are conflating the two issues and it can still be bad PR.

 

[moleman212]

Forgive me if this is a question that's been answered before, just curious.

On driver strike days, do staff that would have worked on the trains (guards, catering, hosts etc) that are cancelled still get paid for that day? Or are rosters shifted around so it counts as a rest day?

 

[BrokenSam]

Forgive me if this is a question that's been answered before, just curious.

On driver strike days, do staff that would have worked on the trains (guards, catering, hosts etc) that are cancelled still get paid for that day? Or are rosters shifted around so it counts as a rest day?

They come to work as normal.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Which was legal in the US. It isn't here. So...

If this is about the ATC strike it also. relied on Reagan being able to shift fully trained military air traffic controllers into the civilian positions. There isn't the equivalent reserve workforce for the railway.

 

[DJP78]

Forgive me if this is a question that's been answered before, just curious.

On driver strike days, do staff that would have worked on the trains (guards, catering, hosts etc) that are cancelled still get paid for that day? Or are rosters shifted around so it counts as a rest day?

As above. They come into work as normal, get paid their normal salary

Moving rest days around would be logistically difficult, resulting in resource gaps on other days

 

[rob.rjt]

If this is about the ATC strike it also. relied on Reagan being able to shift fully trained military air traffic controllers into the civilian positions. There isn't the equivalent reserve workforce for the railway.

Reluctant as I am to get involved with this discussion, it seems that this is part of the problem.

If this was a private business, there would be lots of people with an incentive to end the strike who could bring pressure to bear - for example shareholders and customers. Because of the nature of the beast here, only the union members have an incentive to end the strike, and only when it starts to hurt them. The company seems to be totally without consequences here - a manufacturer (for example) would run the risk of customers going elsewhere, so both shareholders (who want the profit) and the customers (who can threaten to go elsewhere) can bring pressure to bear. The risk of a loss of business will also be considered on the union side - if big customers go elsewhere, will that result in job losses for our members.

LNER can't be fired, they can't close down, and any management would be TUPEd over to a new entity, even if one were possible. The government, if they tried to get involved, would most likely be fed the "it's an operational matter" Post Office line.

 

[exbrel]

Which was legal in the US. It isn't here. So...

i mentioned that replying to -

2. If the rail staff are so unhappy with their current terms and conditions, why don’t they just go out and get another job rather than making life difficult for fare-paying passengers?

which was a big risk considering the extent of the US airline industry, but was manageable with the size of the USAF's staff of air controllers, but he showed the unions he was serious, also prevented striking controllers employment after it was over...

and as per the P&O Cruises / Cunard, and British Gas, fire and rehire is alive and kicking.

 

[Efini92]

What I don't get is why staff would be bullied into working overtime or rest days. As I am one, if I don't want to work overtime or a rest day, then I don't make myself available for that. I don't get pestered either.....and that applies for all staff at where I work. I know of no one who does get bullied into working when they don't want to

Northern aren’t the ones that have announced strikes over it though are they?

Are you an LNER driver?

No, he isn’t.

i mentioned that replying to -

2. If the rail staff are so unhappy with their current terms and conditions, why don’t they just go out and get another job rather than making life difficult for fare-paying passengers?

which was a big risk considering the extent of the US airline industry, but was manageable with the size of the USAF's staff of air controllers, but he showed the unions he was serious, also prevented striking controllers employment after it was over...

and as per the P&O Cruises / Cunard, and British Gas, fire and rehire is alive and kicking.

I don’t think any staff are unhappy with their conditions.

 

[66701GBRF]

i mentioned that replying to -

2. If the rail staff are so unhappy with their current terms and conditions, why don’t they just go out and get another job…

You mean why don’t they race to the bottom?

 

[Tractor2018]

It’s definitely not been the best PR - as some senior ASLEF officials are reported to say - to have strike action days after a pay deal has been announced.

That’s not to say the LNER issues aren’t genuine but people are conflating the two issues and it can still be bad PR.

This.

It's hard to imagine Whelan would be so stupid to misjudge the timing of the announcement for further action there.

So whilst action is definitely required considering what's going on, i just can't understand whoever thought that moment was suitable.

All being said, i hope the staff get everything resolved. Despicable goings on by that TOC.

 

[Sleepy]

You mean why don’t they race to the bottom?

It seems LNER aren't following the agreed t&cs currently in place.

 

[PLY2AYS]

I'm sorry

It’s okay, I accept your apology.

Not your fault that you don’t know the difference between 2 different ballots for 2 separate industrial disputes on completely different days.

Just say it like it is; “I’m ignorant to the issue and I’m keen to recite right wing media rhetoric”

 

[Donny Dave]

I have been in the past, and somewhat to this day, critical of the railway unions, saying that they are perhaps a bit too militant, and calling for industrial action too quickly.

Having read through this thread, in particular the posts made by @TreacleMiller , I completely understand why ASLEF have announced strikes, and support them, even if it means I have to make alternative plans for those days.

 

[Goldfish62]

It’s okay, I accept your apology.

Not your fault that you don’t know the difference between 2 different ballots for 2 separate industrial disputes on completely different days.

Just say it like it is; “I’m ignorant to the issue and I’m keen to recite right wing media rhetoric”

Editing a quote to misrepresent what I said isn't very clever, is it?

And as for the rest of your triatribe it just shows you haven't even tried to understand what I was saying.

Goodbye.

 

[43066]

Has there ever been a point in the history of the railways, other than maybe the rainhill trials, where overtime hasn’t been relied upon?

Literally, maybe the rainhill trials were the only time. Although a few drivers failed their trains that day for an early finish!

You have to love this industry. Nearly 200 years on, some things just don’t change.

Despite Mick Whelan's previously warm (now seemingly weasel) words about wanting to work with the government the timing of the announcement makes it clear that he didn't mean a word of it. A constructive working relationship would have been, for example, for Whelan to make an unofficial approach to Louise Haig about the issue and the intended action if things don't improve. That would have given a chance for Hendy or whoever to go off and try to knock heads together at LNER. Most of the media would have been none the wiser had a solution without strike action being announced been forthcoming.

Instead, we have had a union deliberately undermining the government to the delight of the right wing press and politicians, and any attempted meditation now by the government will be highly public, adding to accusations of Labour acting on their paymasters orders.

I've gone right off Mick Whelan.

I’m generally avoiding these chats, but I hope I can be excused a brief intervention here.

I’m going with cock up rather than conspiracy on this one. Clearly the announcement was mishandled, which is a great shame as it has taken some of the sheen off what has otherwise been a great result for the union and the membership. They have made a big error here: that is certainly my own view, and is shared by various other ASLEF members I’ve spoken to.

The issues at LNER, as ably explained by @TreacleMiller , more than justify some form of action, but the timing is clearly terrible.

There has been some chatter that Louise Haigh was indeed briefed regarding these specific issues, and an announcement of action was expected to be made some weeks hence, but that LNER management escalated issues last week hence the immediate move to action. I don’t work for LNER, so I can’t comment on the specifics, but that makes some sort of sense, albeit clearly the optics of doing so weren’t thought through from the union side. I also don’t know to what extent the decision needed to be signed off via Whelan, or whether the local rep went off half cocked, so to speak. Or perhaps there was some miscommunication internally.

Whelan is no fool, neither are the rest of the union top brass, and I certainly don’t believe there is an agenda to deliberately embarrass the new government, as it simply wouldn’t serve the interests of the union to burn political goodwill in this way.

It’s okay, I accept your apology.

Not your fault that you don’t know the difference between 2 different ballots for 2 separate industrial disputes on completely different days.

Just say it like it is; “I’m ignorant to the issue and I’m keen to recite right wing media rhetoric”

In fairness @Goldfish62 is very even handed when discussing these matters, and he makes a perfectly valid point here. The union have well and truly cocked the optics of this one up all on their own.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The question is what is the Government going to do now these strikes have been called. The Transport Secretary has called on both sides to negotiate but the Government has not so far done anything as far as I know to ensure this happens. It looks like the Government has taken the view that this is only one train operator running long distance train services used by a limited number of people for which there are air and rail alternatives (or people can travel by car) so the Government will present themselves as a neutral bystander and just let the strikes go ahead. The Government may have taken the view that not many people know that LNER is an operator of last resort or the extent of the Government's influence over LNER. If anyone wants the Government to intervene they should write to their MP as if the politicians do not hear anything they will probably conclude that voters are not bothered by the strikes.
I will not travel with LNER unless and until all the off peak fares are reinstated so I am not bothered if the strikes go ahead and I expect many others take the same view. Why would anyone care about the loss of a train service that they cannot afford to use.

 

[PLY2AYS]

In fairness @Goldfish62 is very even handed when discussing these matters, and he makes a perfectly valid point here. The union have well and truly cocked the optics of this one up all on their own.

I agree. Their comments have been extremely insightful and helpful on various threads throughout this community page.
I’ll absolutely concede that the overall optics have been skewed due to the timing of this action being called, but to say the two matters are related plays into the hands of right wing press, their fickle readers and muddies the waters for any member of the public reading through this thread.

My personal opinion is, it sends a very clear message to the management of LNER, that you cannot hide behind a pay deal to mask their conduct.
Being a government run OLR means leading from the front if GBR is to succeed. It NEEDS to set an industry standard, and at present, that standard is unacceptable to our members and the safety of any rail worker or user.

 

[Insiderout]

Ive read all of this thread and joined specifically to reply to a few points that have been made.

Firstly I am a driver with LNER and disagree with the second strike action that’s been taken. The timing is poor and has done nothing for public relations or to improve ASLEF’s image. Whilst the strike is due to the constant abrogation of rostering agreements etc it actually only boils down to one key issue. That issue is Managers driving on strike days. The company have even said so in internal emails.

Whilst it’s convenient to list many other reasons that could be included for the strike reasons to bolster support for LNER it is the union not getting their own way which has caused this.

I’ve read the post below by TreacleMiller and have to disagree with a lot of the issues, namely:

Sent to the wrong place - this has happened to me but it was a mistake by Traincrew so wasn’t chastised. I was still getting paid during my hours to ride in two taxis - not an issue.

Start times changed without agreed notice - I’ve never known this. Rosters are produced in advance and sent out. If somethings not correct then Roster Clerks will correct it but again not happened to me - not an issue

Threatened with escalation - traincrew know what they can and can’t ask. There was one isolated instance with a member of Traincrew who asked someone to do something that they didn’t have to do. That was dealt with on an individual basis and traincrew member advised. One incident over 2+ years - not an issue.

Called on work phone during rest days in early hours - Given there’s no RDW agreement I can’t see why this would happen. I turn my work phone off when not at work but on the occasions I’ve forgotten I’ve never received a call. Traincrew also know they will be told “no” by the person they are phoning if asked to work a rest day. If someone did work a RD they would be removed from ASLEF - not an issue

Training/assessments cancelled due to managers working overtime - last I heard LNER was a public body that served the public. Managers will only cover overtime if a diagram can’t be filled (which ASLEF prevent on overtime from happening as no RDW agreement). Surely it’s better for them to drive a shift and prevent 100’s of disrupted customers and refunds. It’s never happened to me but I don’t have many assessments due to the time I’ve been driving. I know TreacleMiller is still PQA so will have more but it’s one every few months at most - not an issue.

Managers/Trainers paid £500 for 20 mins - it’s my understanding they only get paid for doing a fair distance/time and not for 20 mins. I’m not aware of the official guidance but morally it would seem wrong for 20 mins. ASLEF haven’t formally commented on this to my knowledge.

Had at least one assessment moved to suit overtime of a manager - It’s personally not happened to me but earlier TreacleMiller mentioned assessments being cancelled completely so it seems a manager can’t win. When he was training with his DT they were getting paid but he did all the driving. Different I know but not massively.

Manager boasting of payslip - I’ve asked around and no one can tell me the name of the manager or when this occurred. If it did happen it would be bad taste. But similarly I’m sure once people receive back pay they’ll be boasting to managers about pay sizes.

Being blamed by the public - when have drivers ever not been blamed. Prior to the strikes I was on a platform with crew ready and our service was cancelled due to a lack of traincrew. We were all there! This isn’t something new or created by the strikes. It happens.

Non risk assessed movements - I’d be interested to know what these are. I’ve had to move sets before in unfamiliar areas that weren’t risk assessed. I spoke with the signaller, agreed exactly what needed to be done and undertook it. We’re professional train drivers at the end of the day and not everything can be planned. Sometimes stuff happens! Not an issue.

Cut breaks short - yes this has happened to me but rarely and you can simply say no. This happened before the strikes though.


Whilst TreacleMiller has listed a number of points I don’t believe any of these are particularly relevant. It simply comes down to ASLEF not wanting Managers driving on strike days and refusing to budge on it. If the company does move then it leaves them vulnerable to future demands from ASLEF with no ability to run any services at all.

I appreciate TreacleMiller for saying how things are from his point of view but this is mine from an experienced driver within LNER.

That's not far off. But there is a lot going on beyond that.

To be clear, this post is simply my own thoughts and a few my own experiences - not those of my colleagues and I certainly don't speak for ASLEF.

The official reason for the strike action (which I voted for) has already been detailed by ASLEF. My summised understanding is that this boils down to breach of rostering agreements and failing to follow the agreed to processes that ASLEF and LNER/VTEC agreed to follow.

This is exactly what has been happening.

The company has certainly tried to ignore rostering agreements, repeatedly now for some time.

There's been mandate and support for this action for some time.

TO BE CLEAR TO MAIL READERS, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAY. I can't speak for others but a RDW payment / agreement wouldn't make me turn a blind eye to what's been happening either.



The railway runs on a lot of goodwill due to its nature. Without employing at least 2/3 drivers at every depot per AM and PM to sit spare small delays can cause big problems when the workforce isn't being flexible this makes delays worse.

Simply put it's costly to build in a lot of redundancy and I suspect the public would be likely pretty annoyed to see people earning 60-80k a year sat on their arse 1/2 days a month.

As a result of the previously "assumed" goodwill drying up, day to day operation has gotten worse with relationships between drivers and DTMs and some individuals at both the ROC and board level are at low point. In some instances that has resulted in quite poor behavior from management. All to often that's resulted in some at the company "demanding" what isn't agreed to. They know this and try it on anyway.

There has certainly been instances of drivers being dragged through disciplinary processes only for there to be found that there is no wrong doing.

The we have day to day poor management and generally toxic behaviors. Some examples I've experienced would be.

- Being sent to the "wrong place" when spare, or sent on conflicting jobs. (I've been chasited for being exactly where I was meant to be and sent to by management - whilst booked on for duty).

- Having start times changed without agreed notice.

- Threatened with "escalation" when refusing to carry out additional work that's not on my booked diagram (and that's happened to many more than me). Just what you want to hear when you're undertaking safety critical duties.

- Called on my work mobile at the small hours of the morning on rest days. I switch mine off, some don't.

- Had training / assessments delayed due to managers working overtime (driving).

- Witnessed managers / Trainers being paid £500 for approximately 20 minutes work to fill a small gap unable to be plugged with spare drivers or cover diagrams.

- Had at least one assessment moved to suit a managers overtime - IE they got paid for the OT and I was driving.

- A manager walking into the mess room and broadcasting the size of their payslip for said payments.

- Being publicly blamed for the cancellation of services that have been planned to be cancelled in advance (stood on a platform waiting for a set with my crew only to have "Cancelled due to a shortage of train drivers" announced as the reason for it being canned) You can imagine what myself and crew dealt with on the platforms.

- Being told to carry out non risked assessed movements.

- Being asked and encouraged to cut breaks short when arriving late into a destination by local staff who have been "told to ask" and themselves have been pressured into doing what they don't agree with.

I could go on...

One or two "not agreed to requests" once in a while is one thing, but it's at the point where something happens on an almost daily basis, if not to me then a friend. Couple that to managers being heavily "Influenced" to work against drivers..... It's no wonder there is a "poor" atmosphere that has certainly become toxic. That was well within the companies power to control and they haven't.

 

[uglymonkey]

If you are a driver and decide not to strike and turn up and drive. Is that OK? Does it make a difference if you are a union member or not?

 

[YoungJohnson]

and as per the P&O Cruises / Cunard, and British Gas, fire and rehire is alive and kicking.

Fire and rehire is hugely hated by the general public - a 2023 YouGov poll showed 68% of people opposed and only 12% in favour, and P&O's reputation is mud. Labour also plan to bring in legislation banning it (other than in very very extreme circumstances - e.g. if it is that or the business collapses and everyone loses their jobs). It is a despised practice.

Labour proposing fire and rehire on LNER would trigger a rail strike of a magnitude which would make the previous ones under the Tory governments look like mild tutting in comparison. It would also cause irreparable damage between not only ASLEF and Labour - disaffiliation would be on the cards, but the other trade unions would cause merry hell and equally could start pulling funding or causing chaos for the party.

It is also possible the party would end up in total disarray with MPs rebelling, leadership challenges, expulsions and utter chaos. It's not just going to be a few of Corbyn's old mates blathering on, such a thing could trigger party civil war, explulsions of councillors and MPs, defections to the Greens, party resignations, voting with the Lib Dems and all sorts of things. Fire and rehire after all is hated by the "moderate" wing of Labour, just as much as the left.

Basically it's not happening as much as a few anti-staff / anti-rail keyboard warriors, and Daily Mail cultists relish the idea.

In reality it will be "jaw jaw" not "war war", and most likely there will be plenty of top level discussions between the minister, officials and unions, possibly a wider investigation into whether Arup / SNC Lavalin provide anything at all of value to LNER - and whether they can be junked without having to pay massive contract termination fees if they are simply doing nothing useful. Ideally sensible highly experienced industry figures will be brought in to mediate and sort the mess out in return for the union calling off strikes whilst this is all thrashed out.

 

[357]

If you are a driver and decide not to strike and turn up and drive. Is that OK? Does it make a difference if you are a union member or not?

Any driver is welcome to leave the union and have no further involvement with strikes.

 

[800001]

If you are a driver and decide not to strike and turn up and drive. Is that OK? Does it make a difference if you are a union member or not?

There has been 2-3 drivers (who were/are aslef) and they decided not to strike on the last few LNER strike days, and they were allocated driving jobs.

As for Train crew desk calling people to work services, when there is no cover, LNER train crew desk have a list daily of who is allocated spare, along with there shift times, they would be the only people train crew would call to work a service.

 

[357]

Whilst the strike is due to the constant abrogation of rostering agreements etc it actually only boils down to one key issue. That issue is Managers driving on strike days. The company have even said so in internal emails.

Welcome to the forum. LNER don't dictate what the strike is about, so they can say what that like in emails. The strike is for the reason on the ballot paper.

I know TreacleMiller is still PQA so will have more but it’s one every few months at most - not an issue.

AFAIK PQA drivers average one assesment of some form per month.

When he was training with his DT they were getting paid but he did all the driving. Different I know but not massively.

Totally different situation.

Non risk assessed movements - I’d be interested to know what these are. I’ve had to move sets before in unfamiliar areas that weren’t risk assessed. I spoke with the signaller, agreed exactly what needed to be done and undertook it. We’re professional train drivers at the end of the day and not everything can be planned. Sometimes stuff happens! Not an issue.

This is the only part of your post I agree with.

I think maybe you need to remember how management are known to try it on with new drivers, and how atmosphere and morale can change from depot to depot.

 

[BrokenSam]

If you are a driver and decide not to strike and turn up and drive. Is that OK? Does it make a difference if you are a union member or not?

Never a good thing to cross a picket regardless of your feelings on the matter.

 

[heedfan]

Ive read all of this thread and joined specifically to reply to a few points that have been made.

Firstly I am a driver with LNER and disagree with the second strike action that’s been taken. The timing is poor and has done nothing for public relations or to improve ASLEF’s image. Whilst the strike is due to the constant abrogation of rostering agreements etc it actually only boils down to one key issue. That issue is Managers driving on strike days. The company have even said so in internal emails.

Whilst it’s convenient to list many other reasons that could be included for the strike reasons to bolster support for LNER it is the union not getting their own way which has caused this.

I’ve read the post below by TreacleMiller and have to disagree with a lot of the issues, namely:

Sent to the wrong place - this has happened to me but it was a mistake by Traincrew so wasn’t chastised. I was still getting paid during my hours to ride in two taxis - not an issue.

Start times changed without agreed notice - I’ve never known this. Rosters are produced in advance and sent out. If somethings not correct then Roster Clerks will correct it but again not happened to me - not an issue

Threatened with escalation - traincrew know what they can and can’t ask. There was one isolated instance with a member of Traincrew who asked someone to do something that they didn’t have to do. That was dealt with on an individual basis and traincrew member advised. One incident over 2+ years - not an issue.

Called on work phone during rest days in early hours - Given there’s no RDW agreement I can’t see why this would happen. I turn my work phone off when not at work but on the occasions I’ve forgotten I’ve never received a call. Traincrew also know they will be told “no” by the person they are phoning if asked to work a rest day. If someone did work a RD they would be removed from ASLEF - not an issue

Training/assessments cancelled due to managers working overtime - last I heard LNER was a public body that served the public. Managers will only cover overtime if a diagram can’t be filled (which ASLEF prevent on overtime from happening as no RDW agreement). Surely it’s better for them to drive a shift and prevent 100’s of disrupted customers and refunds. It’s never happened to me but I don’t have many assessments due to the time I’ve been driving. I know TreacleMiller is still PQA so will have more but it’s one every few months at most - not an issue.

Managers/Trainers paid £500 for 20 mins - it’s my understanding they only get paid for doing a fair distance/time and not for 20 mins. I’m not aware of the official guidance but morally it would seem wrong for 20 mins. ASLEF haven’t formally commented on this to my knowledge.

Had at least one assessment moved to suit overtime of a manager - It’s personally not happened to me but earlier TreacleMiller mentioned assessments being cancelled completely so it seems a manager can’t win. When he was training with his DT they were getting paid but he did all the driving. Different I know but not massively.

Manager boasting of payslip - I’ve asked around and no one can tell me the name of the manager or when this occurred. If it did happen it would be bad taste. But similarly I’m sure once people receive back pay they’ll be boasting to managers about pay sizes.

Being blamed by the public - when have drivers ever not been blamed. Prior to the strikes I was on a platform with crew ready and our service was cancelled due to a lack of traincrew. We were all there! This isn’t something new or created by the strikes. It happens.

Non risk assessed movements - I’d be interested to know what these are. I’ve had to move sets before in unfamiliar areas that weren’t risk assessed. I spoke with the signaller, agreed exactly what needed to be done and undertook it. We’re professional train drivers at the end of the day and not everything can be planned. Sometimes stuff happens! Not an issue.

Cut breaks short - yes this has happened to me but rarely and you can simply say no. This happened before the strikes though.


Whilst TreacleMiller has listed a number of points I don’t believe any of these are particularly relevant. It simply comes down to ASLEF not wanting Managers driving on strike days and refusing to budge on it. If the company does move then it leaves them vulnerable to future demands from ASLEF with no ability to run any services at all.

I appreciate TreacleMiller for saying how things are from his point of view but this is mine from an experienced driver within LNER.

Your argument here seems to be 'these individual things haven't happened to me personally therefore they aren't an issue'. Hardly the view of a team player looking out for their colleagues after two years of a dispute.

Suggesting that the main issue is about managers driving on strike days only is disingenuous - it is about them driving every day, as has been highlighted many times on this thread.

 

[mpthomson]

I agree. Their comments have been extremely insightful and helpful on various threads throughout this community page.
I’ll absolutely concede that the overall optics have been skewed due to the timing of this action being called, but to say the two matters are related plays into the hands of right wing press, their fickle readers and muddies the waters for any member of the public reading through this thread.

My personal opinion is, it sends a very clear message to the management of LNER, that you cannot hide behind a pay deal to mask their conduct.
Being a government run OLR means leading from the front if GBR is to succeed. It NEEDS to set an industry standard, and at present, that standard is unacceptable to our members and the safety of any rail worker or user.

The issue is of public perception. The disputes may not be related, but the perception of it (and even the Mail, Express and Telegraph have made it clear that they aren't related in their coverage, it's not down to the press) publically, even if people understand the situation, is that this has been ASLEF overplaying their hand massively. As I've said it's almost certainly an hubristic cock-up but that doesn't alter how it's seen by a large number of people, who don't care what the dispute is about, all they're interested in is a union announcing more strikes just after receiving a very good pay settlement when they thought that they were about to get a more stable rail service.

It's now up to ASLEF to try to justify it to the travelling public. I suspect they're going to struggle, however justified the action may be.

Fire and rehire is hugely hated by the general public - a 2023 YouGov poll showed 68% of people opposed and only 12% in favour, and P&O's reputation is mud. Labour also plan to bring in legislation banning it (other than in very very extreme circumstances - e.g. if it is that or the business collapses and everyone loses their jobs). It is a despised practice.

Labour proposing fire and rehire on LNER would trigger a rail strike of a magnitude which would make the previous ones under the Tory governments look like mild tutting in comparison. It would also cause irreparable damage between not only ASLEF and Labour - disaffiliation would be on the cards, but the other trade unions would cause merry hell and equally could start pulling funding or causing chaos for the party.

It is also possible the party would end up in total disarray with MPs rebelling, leadership challenges, expulsions and utter chaos. It's not just going to be a few of Corbyn's old mates blathering on, such a thing could trigger party civil war, explulsions of councillors and MPs, defections to the Greens, party resignations, voting with the Lib Dems and all sorts of things. Fire and rehire after all is hated by the "moderate" wing of Labour, just as much as the left.

Basically it's not happening as much as a few anti-staff / anti-rail keyboard warriors, and Daily Mail cultists relish the idea.

In reality it will be "jaw jaw" not "war war", and most likely there will be plenty of top level discussions between the minister, officials and unions, possibly a wider investigation into whether Arup / SNC Lavalin provide anything at all of value to LNER - and whether they can be junked without having to pay massive contract termination fees if they are simply doing nothing useful. Ideally sensible highly experienced industry figures will be brought in to mediate and sort the mess out in return for the union calling off strikes whilst this is all thrashed out.

Worth noting that Labour banning it would have no effect on the specific circumstances of P&O fire/rehire.

 

[baz962]

Which was legal in the US. It isn't here. So...

And the air traffic controllers actually had a previous agreement not to strike , which they broke. It took many years to replace them all.

 

[DJP78]

Fire and rehire is hugely hated by the general public - a 2023 YouGov poll showed 68% of people opposed and only 12% in favour, and P&O's reputation is mud. Labour also plan to bring in legislation banning it (other than in very very extreme circumstances - e.g. if it is that or the business collapses and everyone loses their jobs). It is a despised practice.

Labour proposing fire and rehire on LNER would trigger a rail strike of a magnitude which would make the previous ones under the Tory governments look like mild tutting in comparison. It would also cause irreparable damage between not only ASLEF and Labour - disaffiliation would be on the cards, but the other trade unions would cause merry hell and equally could start pulling funding or causing chaos for the party.

It is also possible the party would end up in total disarray with MPs rebelling, leadership challenges, expulsions and utter chaos. It's not just going to be a few of Corbyn's old mates blathering on, such a thing could trigger party civil war, explulsions of councillors and MPs, defections to the Greens, party resignations, voting with the Lib Dems and all sorts of things. Fire and rehire after all is hated by the "moderate" wing of Labour, just as much as the left.

Basically it's not happening as much as a few anti-staff / anti-rail keyboard warriors, and Daily Mail cultists relish the idea.

In reality it will be "jaw jaw" not "war war", and most likely there will be plenty of top level discussions between the minister, officials and unions, possibly a wider investigation into whether Arup / SNC Lavalin provide anything at all of value to LNER - and whether they can be junked without having to pay massive contract termination fees if they are simply doing nothing useful. Ideally sensible highly experienced industry figures will be brought in to mediate and sort the mess out in return for the union calling off strikes whilst this is all thrashed out.

Don’t forget British Gas unleashed Fire & Rehire as well back on 2021 I believe

Disgraceful practise and they’re still suffering the consequences now

British Gas reputation mud as well