Services to Northampton

[zwk500]

Go on then, enlighten me. Why is Milton Keynes a busier station than the one serving the bigger town of Northampton, if not for the fact that its more convenient location on the WCML means it gets a vastly better service?

The amount of employment around MK Central station for one, not to mention the bus interchange and plentiful parking makes it a lot more attractive for passengers from the outlying area. The NR and Santander offices around the station are major employers with lots of people commuting in from places like Berkhampstead and Leighton Buzzard (as well as healthy Northampton-MK commuting traffic).
I'd also hazard a guess that central MK gets a bit more visiting traffic by rail for the Shopping Centre and Theatre district than Northampton does (despite Northampton probably having the nicer town centre IMO). Northampton just isn't a place people visit other than for the Rugby or if they know somebody who lives there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The amount of employment around MK Central station for one, not to mention the bus interchange and plentiful parking makes it a lot more attractive for passengers from the outlying area.

A lot of inbound commuting is by car because of ease of parking and a lot of employment not being in CMK (coupled with the terrible bus service) though.

The NR and Santander offices around the station are major employers with lots of people commuting in from places like Berkhampstead and Leighton Buzzard (as well as healthy Northampton-MK commuting traffic).
I'd also hazard a guess that central MK gets a bit more visiting traffic by rail for the Shopping Centre and Theatre district than Northampton does (despite Northampton probably having the nicer town centre IMO). Northampton just isn't a place people visit other than for the Rugby or if they know somebody who lives there.

Do you go to a different Northampton than I did? The town centre is an utter, abject dump and makes Bedford and Aylesbury look good, which is saying something. The one saving grace (as with Aylesbury) is the rather good theatre.

CMK might not be lovely and does lack a proper city vibe, but it at least has plenty of employment and a regional level shopping centre with a wide selection of shops.

 

[William3000]

No. It has been brought up a number of times that they won't go beyond the bay at Milton Keynes.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ns-and-speculation.215169/page-8#post-6072080

The focus of EWR is on getting the isolated operation running first, not extending it to multiple destinations.

My understanding is that East West Rail Company are looking at 2 trains per hour between Birmingham New Street and Cambridge via Northampton, calling at Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes Central, Bedford (Midland) (via new north to east facing curve north of Bletchley), Tempsford, Cambourne, Cambridge South, and Cambridge (Central).

If this happens it will significantly enhance Northampton’s connectivity eastwards with direct interchange opportunities to the Midland Main Line, East Coast Main Line, and West Anglia Main Line.

 

[Mgameing123]

Does anybody else agree that Northampton’s rail service is awful? Two trains an hour in each direction for a town biggger than many cities with a population of over 250,000?

WHAT. No that’s not awful at all. It’s much worse than that! 2 tph isn’t enough. Northampton needs much more!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2024 ==

What I find most ridiculous, is that there a no services from Northampton for most of the day that stop at Tring, Berko and Hemel. Prior to Covid, one of the 3 an hour did. With the curtailing of the stopping service at Milton Keynes, you would have to change there, or Bletchley/Leighton Buzzard, as the stopping services from Milton Keynes leave around 5 minutes before the services from Northampton, you have to wait around 25 mins

That could be solved with having the stopping service depart right after the fast train at Milton Keynes.

 

[zwk500]

A lot of inbound commuting is by car because of ease of parking and a lot of employment not being in CMK (coupled with the terrible bus service) though.

A lot of it is still by train though (I had several years observation of commuting by train to MKC to verify this).
There are also several flows that aren't rail served (Aylesbury being a particularly frustrating example) but might be in future.

Do you go to a different Northampton than I did? The town centre is an utter, abject dump and makes Bedford and Aylesbury look good, which is saying something. The one saving grace (as with Aylesbury) is the rather good theatre.

the top end by the Guildhall isnt bad, and ai have a very low opinion of MK town centre because it doesnt really have one.

CMK might not be lovely and does lack a proper city vibe, but it at least has plenty of employment and a regional level shopping centre with a wide selection of shshops.

Yes

 

[Magdalia]

My understanding is that East West Rail Company are looking at 2 trains per hour between Birmingham New Street and Cambridge via Northampton, calling at Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes Central, Bedford (Midland) (via new north to east facing curve north of Bletchley), Tempsford, Cambourne, Cambridge South, and Cambridge (Central).

Where is the evidence for that please?

My understanding is that EWR have not changed their position since summer 2023, when they were proposing 2tph Oxford-Cambridge and 2tph Bedford-Cambridge, see here:

https://eastwestrail-production.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/public/Uploads/1a7dfe325a/14.-RUA-The-Affordable-Connections-Project-v4.pdf

The Affordable Connections Project This was based on a drive for lower costs, reflecting the impacts of Covid-19, and a focus on ensuring the benefits could be supported through local leadership. The ACP therefore considered whether there remained a strategic case for investing in EWR and if there were solutions which could deliver the majority of the expected benefits of EWR at a lower capital cost to the tax payer. The Affordable Connections Project 1/3 This factsheet provides more information about the ACP.

Updated service pattern The total number of trains needed between Bedford and Cambridge to meet the growth predictions will be four per hour – two originating in Oxford and two originating in Bedford. This work helped us identify an updated service pattern for EWR, which will provide: • Four trains per hour from Oxford – two progress to Milton Keynes, two continue to Cambridge • A further two trains per hour travelling between Bedford and Cambridge • An additional service between Bletchley and Bedford

 

[zwk500]

My understanding is that East West Rail Company are looking at 2 trains per hour between Birmingham New Street and Cambridge via Northampton, calling at Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes Central, Bedford (Midland) (via new north to east facing curve north of Bletchley), Tempsford, Cambourne, Cambridge South, and Cambridge (Central).

If this happens it will significantly enhance Northampton’s connectivity eastwards with direct interchange opportunities to the Midland Main Line, East Coast Main Line, and West Anglia Main Line.

EWR are not looking at anything like that beyond possibly mentioning the idea in a strategy workshop.

 

[DarloRich]

Go on then, enlighten me. Why is Milton Keynes a busier station than the one serving the bigger town of Northampton, if not for the fact that its more convenient location on the WCML means it gets a vastly better service?

It is really quite obvious. As others have explained MK has more jobs that attract commuters. I know many people who work in MK but live in Northampton. They either drive or use the train to get to work. People aren't commuting into Northampton in the same way.

Put simply MK has more company head office/HQ type offices ( not just those mentioned above but off the top of my head Argos, Mercedes, VW, Deloites, Dentons) which pull in a lot of professional people, from a wide area, by both train and car. Some will come by bus but not that many. Northampton doesn't (outside Nationwide and Barclaycard) have the same level of these jobs or companies located there.

I would also venture that more people live in Northampton because it is ( or perhaps was) much cheaper than other areas for housing. I have been here for 15 years now and Northampton was the affordable London commuter boundary for a long time. It is now further north.

Even with that the demand for commuting (pre covid) was satisfied by the service offered. It wasn't a drag on usage!

There are also several flows that aren't rail served (Aylesbury being a particularly frustrating example) but might be in future.

Bedford direction is another one. Hopefully E > W Pick both up

A lot of it is still by train though (I had several years observation of commuting by train to MKC to verify this).

Knowing the area is not enough to base an opinion on

The town centre is an utter, abject dump and makes Bedford and Aylesbury look good,

lets not get carried away!

My understanding is that East West Rail Company are looking at 2 trains per hour between Birmingham New Street and Cambridge via Northampton, calling at Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes Central, Bedford (Midland) (via new north to east facing curve north of Bletchley), Tempsford, Cambourne, Cambridge South, and Cambridge (Central).

No they are not, at least not beyond long term idea generation. A what could we do IF session I suspect.

 

[The Planner]

My understanding is that East West Rail Company are looking at 2 trains per hour between Birmingham New Street and Cambridge via Northampton, calling at Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes Central, Bedford (Midland) (via new north to east facing curve north of Bletchley), Tempsford, Cambourne, Cambridge South, and Cambridge (Central).

If this happens it will significantly enhance Northampton’s connectivity eastwards with direct interchange opportunities to the Midland Main Line, East Coast Main Line, and West Anglia Main Line.

Where has that been suggested? You won't have the capacity for it for a start.

 

[gordonthemoron]

It is really quite obvious. As others have explained MK has more jobs that attract commuters. I know many people who work in MK but live in Northampton. They either drive or use the train to get to work. People aren't commuting into Northampton in the same way.

Put simply MK has more company head office/HQ type offices ( not just those mentioned above but off the top of my head Argos, Mercedes, VW, Deloites, Dentons) which pull in a lot of professional people, from a wide area, by both train and car. Some will come by bus but not that many. Northampton doesn't (outside Nationwide and Barclaycard) have the same level of these jobs or companies located there.

I would also venture that more people live in Northampton because it is ( or perhaps was) much cheaper than other areas for housing. I have been here for 15 years now and Northampton was the affordable London commuter boundary for a long time. It is now further north.

Even with that the demand for commuting (pre covid) was satisfied by the service offered. It wasn't a drag on usage!

I used to commute from MK to Barclaycard in Northampton, I used the back road from Newport Pagnall, the amount of traffic coming south in the morning peak was far greater than that travelling north

 

[DarloRich]

in addition to the above: There are an increasing number of people driving into MK from the Wellingborough/Rushden & St Neots directions. I suspect that is house price related.

I used to commute from MK to Barclaycard in Northampton, I used the back road from Newport Pagnall, the amount of traffic coming south in the morning peak was far greater than that travelling north

a rare example of contra flow commuting! ( I know a couple of people who do the same journey. Barclaycard seems to have joined the employment spiral for those who move often to move up the greasy pole!)

 

[A0]

It is really quite obvious. As others have explained MK has more jobs that attract commuters. I know many people who work in MK but live in Northampton. They either drive or use the train to get to work. People aren't commuting into Northampton in the same way.

Put simply MK has more company head office/HQ type offices ( not just those mentioned above but off the top of my head Argos, Mercedes, VW, Deloites, Dentons) which pull in a lot of professional people, from a wide area, by both train and car. Some will come by bus but not that many. Northampton doesn't (outside Nationwide and Barclaycard) have the same level of these jobs or companies located there.

I would also venture that more people live in Northampton because it is ( or perhaps was) much cheaper than other areas for housing. I have been here for 15 years now and Northampton was the affordable London commuter boundary for a long time. It is now further north.

Bit in bold - not any more for Argos, that office closed a couple of years back when Sainsbury's consolidated their office spaces.

Northampton is still relatively affordable housing wise - Rightmove reckons the average sale price over the last 12 months in MK is £341k, compared to £271k for Northampton. For 2 people on £ 35k salaries (which is the national average) they can still get a 90% mortgage for £271k on 3.5 times their salary which isn't excessive.

 

[A0]

Do you go to a different Northampton than I did? The town centre is an utter, abject dump and makes Bedford and Aylesbury look good, which is saying something. The one saving grace (as with Aylesbury) is the rather good theatre.

CMK might not be lovely and does lack a proper city vibe, but it at least has plenty of employment and a regional level shopping centre with a wide selection of shops.

I'm not sure somebody hailing from Bletchley is in any position to criticise other places of being a "dump"....... I wouldn't be surprised if I looked up "dump" in certain dictionaries the defintion is "Bletchley town centre".


Getting back on topic - the question *ought* to be what service level should Northampton have - my view (as somebody who acutally lives here) is as follows:

3 tph to London with a target journey time of 50 minutes - so stops at Wolverton, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction.

2 tph to Birmingham New Street stopping at Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, New Street.

1 tph to Crewe via TV to Stafford then via Stoke to Crewe.

I'm genuinely not fussed about getting "Inter City" services through Northampton, providing there are sensible connections at Rugby, but I do think the loop north of Northampton to Rugby should have its speed limit raised from 75mph to 90/100 mph. The Desiros could easily make use of the higher linespeed.

Suggesting lines to Wellingborough, Kettering or Market Harborough (the latter being "promoted" by ERTA / BRTA who's knowledge of demand for travel to / from Northampton is about the same as my knowledge of astro-physics) are alll a waste of time / money and won't actually be of much use. Similarly going 'west' from Northampton towards Towcester or Brackley is pretty pointless.

In terms of wider Northamptonshire the rail "improvements" I'd look for are:

- new station at Roade. Roade is growing as are a number of other places in the vicinity, it would also pick up the demand from places like Towcester reducing the flow into Milton Keynes.
- new station between Rushden and Irchester. Wellingborough at the 2021 census is a town of 55k which is being hugely expanded. Rushden was 32k at the last census and is also growing, so can probably justify a station to reduce the impact on Wellingborough.
- station on HS2 in the vicinity of the A43 / Brackley as a 'parkway'.

at some point the future Desborough might also be worth looking at as a future station, but not yet. Maybe when it gets to a population of 25k it will be worth looking at.

 

[Markuk]

They would have walked away.

I don't think that would have disappointed many locals.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2024 ==

A Northampton Parkway type station was proposed at Blisworth but was shelved. The reason given, by the manager who made that decision, was obtuse i.m.o.; it was that, if the Old Line was closed for any reason (and services diverted via Northampton!) passengers would be stranded because they couldn't reach their cars on their return journey.

There was also a plan for an additional station exactly where the rail freight terminal is being built ('Gordon's Farm'), in connection with a proposed massive housing development around Milton Malsor - Blisworth - Gayton but this seems also to have been abandoned.

And that would've been the advantage of this station, it would've combined the benefits of both of those into one single station at a very accessible location.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I don't think that would have disappointed many locals.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2024 ==

Well, they've paid for the A508 Roade bypass, a very elaborate upgrade of M1 J15 and improvements at J15A so far. Must have spent around £200,000,000 making the road network around Northampton even better.

Perhaps they'll be unable to service the debt mountain and never open. The locals will regard that as win/win.

 

[cle]

I would think access to Bicester and Oxford (and the west) would be more useful for Northampton, and much easier to deliver.

The service pattern I recalled for EWR is a bit thin on the Bedford-Cambridge stretch.

Oxford-Bletchley will have freight, has the Chiltern services, potential for Aylesbury, and the scheduled 4tph. It was an existing alignment and partially operational.

Bedford-Cambridge is thus far just 4tph (from Oxford and Bletchley/Bedford) - maybe freight, but nothing else that I am aware of. It is a brand new build. I just can't see how this is viable for 4tph. Is freight likely? Does it offer any Ely relief? It doesn't connect into the ECML, and north of Bedford it would need a north-facing chord to be useful for Nuneaton... assuming we aren't forcing it on the WCML (which would also need a similar north chord at Bletchley!)

As for other passenger service, only something onto the southbound MML (very circuitous, random route to Cambridge) - unless said northern chord could enable services from Leicester/beyond via Tempsford to Cambridge...

 

[DarloRich]

Bit in bold - not any more for Argos, that office closed a couple of years back when Sainsbury's consolidated their office spaces.

Is it not still on Avebury? I thought the HQ part had moved but the office ( customer services, finance etc remaining) was still open or did COVID WFH kill it off?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==

3 tph to London with a target journey time of 50 minutes - so stops at Wolverton, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction.

Agree - would prefer one stopping at Bletchley (perhaps instead of Wolverton) to preserve fast services to London

1 tph to Crewe via TV to Stafford then via Stoke to Crewe.

but not at the expense of "fast line" services: When the Euston > Crewe LM service ran via Northampton it was turgid.

I'm genuinely not fussed about getting "Inter City" services through Northampton, providing there are sensible connections at Rugby, but I do think the loop north of Northampton to Rugby should have its speed limit raised from 75mph to 90/100 mph. The Desiros could easily make use of the higher linespeed.

Agree

 

[Hadders]

Is it not still on Avebury? I thought the HQ part had moved but the office ( customer services, finance etc remaining) was still open or did COVID WFH kill it off?

It closed in July 2023.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree - would prefer one stopping at Bletchley (perhaps instead of Wolverton) to preserve fast services to London

I don't think dropping Bletchley to one fast London an hour with its new more important role with EWR is acceptable.

TBH I think the pattern now operating is bang-on. It just needs all trains to be 12-car (or 10.730) south of Northampton. Indeed, what work would be needed to get 240m trains on all services including to Birmingham to reduce the split/join faff? Particularly as taking Apsley/Kings Langley/Bushey out of the Trings has quietened those down a lot so they can almost all be 8-car (some will work as 5.730) and so use the short platforms at Euston?

 

[DarloRich]

It closed in July 2023.

oh. i didn't know that - sure the signage was still up last time i was down that end

 

[Mgameing123]

Is it not still on Avebury? I thought the HQ part had moved but the office ( customer services, finance etc remaining) was still open or did COVID WFH kill it off?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==


Agree - would prefer one stopping at Bletchley (perhaps instead of Wolverton) to preserve fast services to London

but not at the expense of "fast line" services: When the Euston > Crewe LM service ran via Northampton it was turgid.

Agree

How about just stop at both stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==

I'm not sure somebody hailing from Bletchley is in any position to criticise other places of being a "dump"....... I wouldn't be surprised if I looked up "dump" in certain dictionaries the defintion is "Bletchley town centre".


Getting back on topic - the question *ought* to be what service level should Northampton have - my view (as somebody who acutally lives here) is as follows:

3 tph to London with a target journey time of 50 minutes - so stops at Wolverton, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction.

2 tph to Birmingham New Street stopping at Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, New Street.

1 tph to Crewe via TV to Stafford then via Stoke to Crewe.

I'm genuinely not fussed about getting "Inter City" services through Northampton, providing there are sensible connections at Rugby, but I do think the loop north of Northampton to Rugby should have its speed limit raised from 75mph to 90/100 mph. The Desiros could easily make use of the higher linespeed.

Suggesting lines to Wellingborough, Kettering or Market Harborough (the latter being "promoted" by ERTA / BRTA who's knowledge of demand for travel to / from Northampton is about the same as my knowledge of astro-physics) are alll a waste of time / money and won't actually be of much use. Similarly going 'west' from Northampton towards Towcester or Brackley is pretty pointless.

In terms of wider Northamptonshire the rail "improvements" I'd look for are:

- new station at Roade. Roade is growing as are a number of other places in the vicinity, it would also pick up the demand from places like Towcester reducing the flow into Milton Keynes.
- new station between Rushden and Irchester. Wellingborough at the 2021 census is a town of 55k which is being hugely expanded. Rushden was 32k at the last census and is also growing, so can probably justify a station to reduce the impact on Wellingborough.
- station on HS2 in the vicinity of the A43 / Brackley as a 'parkway'.

at some point the future Desborough might also be worth looking at as a future station, but not yet. Maybe when it gets to a population of 25k it will be worth looking at.

I agree that Northampton needs a fast service to Birmingham. 1 hour to Birmingham is too slow.

 

[DarloRich]

How about just stop at both stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==


I agree that Northampton needs a fast service to Birmingham. 1 hour to Birmingham is too slow.

because it will slow my journey down! That and Bletchley being the interchange for E>W rail. Mainly the former mind.

 

[zwk500]

I agree that Northampton needs a fast service to Birmingham. 1 hour to Birmingham is too slow.

Which services are being cancelled to speed it up?

 

[A0]

because it will slow my journey down! That and Bletchley being the interchange for E>W rail. Mainly the former mind.

Though given there will be MK Central to Oxford services, the interchange could easily be there instead of Bletchley. Demand for Northampton - Bedford travel is miniscule.

 

[87015]

Which services are being cancelled to speed it up?

What was put in when the 321s went from running fast on Cov corridor to all stations?

 

[JonathanH]

What was put in when the 321s went from running fast on Cov corridor to all stations?

It was the necessary response to 3tph Pendolinos as there wasn't room for a separate stopper all the way to Coventry.

 

[JW4]

Delete please

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It was the necessary response to 3tph Pendolinos as there wasn't room for a separate stopper all the way to Coventry.

I have said it before - the 390 TT in the past started with the issues of the New St to Coventry corridor driving pretty much the pattern past Rugby towards London. Immense research was done on the real passenger flows of the then Wolverhampton to Coventry all stations service , hence the compromise effected within existing infrastructure (bar some tweaks at International) .....not easy.

 

[Kite159]

Particularly as taking Apsley/Kings Langley/Bushey out of the Trings has quietened those down a lot so they can almost all be 8-car (some will work as 5.730) and so use the short platforms at Euston?

Unless they are planning to end the practice of interworking the Tring 'semifast' and Milton Keynes stoppers at Euston.I can't see a 5 coach 730 being suitable.

Especially at Watford Junction with the Harry Potter crowd

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless they are planning to end the practice of interworking the Tring 'semifast' and Milton Keynes stoppers at Euston.I can't see a 5 coach 730 being suitable.

Especially at Watford Junction with the Harry Potter crowd

Unless they return to some sort of portion working, I suppose. I really can't see 10 car all day on weekdays though.