RMT Strike (Avanti) February

[Carlisle]

It was tried. LNER were going to implement it. So the union simply added a load of extra strike days (so much more disruption than a single day all-out strike, for no more pay lost) to compensate. LNER chickened out.

They could’ve chosen to test it in court as discussed here at the time.

 

[Starmill]

It is not about what I expect. Expect unions to act selfishly and they do, unions are there to serve themselves by definition. It doesn't make striking on days when the victims are those travelling to see their families for Christmas right.

I also think all of the previous strikes were unfortunate choices of dates as well.

My point that individuals are perfectly capable of making judgements of their own stands.

The point was that you wouldn't agree with the action no matter when it happened or why, so they may as well hold it when it's most likely to achieve their own goals.

 

[Tractor2018]

They could’ve chosen to test it in court as discussed here at the time.

ASLEF?

 

[12LDA28C]

That would be ok if cancelled action resulted in services being restored, but we know that does not happen. When past strikes were cancelled the service was skeletal at best.

Presenting cancellations of announced strikes as anything other than a mechanism to get pay for strike days is a misnoma.

I would of course be happy in a world where diagrams, allocations etc were all as flexible as they are in a supermarket. The railway is not that flexible.

Once a strike is called publically it is called. The bed is made.

Depends how far in advance of the proposed action an agreement is reached.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I disagree. It’s passengers who use the trains. It’s passengers who make plans for as and when to use the trains. They are entitled to exactly the same strike notice as the rail company. That’s my thought anyway.

The union must give the employer 14 days notice. It's on the employer to pass that information onto their customers.

It is not the media that whip up anti-union sentiment when the workers strike. Keep denying the ability of the population to think independently and you'll go the same way of the UKs EU membership or Corbyn. The narrative that the population are too stupid to think for themselves is harmful.

I disagree. The media loves to highlight how "train drivers - who can earn as much £100k - are demanding extra pay". They rarely, if ever, comment on lower salaries. They rarely give a decent explanation of other reasons behind the strike. The majority of the public aren't going to do any further research on the matter.

 

[Carlisle]

ASLEF?

LNER could as the ballot paper gave no mention of a strike against MSLs

 

[Topological]

The union must give the employer 14 days notice. It's on the employer to pass that information onto their customers.


I disagree. The media loves to highlight how "train drivers - who can earn as much £100k - are demanding extra pay". They rarely, if ever, comment on lower salaries. They rarely give a decent explanation of other reasons behind the strike. The majority of the public aren't going to do any further research on the matter.

Is it not correct that train drivers earn more than most people? The £100k figure is sensationalism but so is everything that appears in a paper. Again there is this assumption that people are too stupid to know that what they read is sensationalism.

There is to my knowledge no plan to introduce additional danger into the working of any railway employees. There is no proposal for a nominal terms pay cut (I get that there have been real terms cuts). IF the media have failed to report either then maybe someone can explain what has actually happened. All we have been told about are changes to terms which, whilst not ideal, are not alien to other industries. There is support, but it would be better if the strikes about these issues were on working days.

I find it really frustrating that so many in the UK want to completely disregard the thoughts of the population as the blindly followed will of the press. People do form their own opinions from their own knowledge and own lived experiences. The railway is currently giving people a lived experienced that will only increase the probability of alignment of opinion with the opinion of traditionally conservative press outlets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2024 ==

The point was that you wouldn't agree with the action no matter when it happened or why, so they may as well hold it when it's most likely to achieve their own goals.

Again. It does not matter what MY opinion is.

MY opinion is that the government should bite the bullet and legislate on what is and is not safe for the operation of passenger railways. I do not know the facts so am not going to say what that safety level is. But, if a certain practice works somewhere then chances are that practice is safe. Maybe we need to put guards back onto DOO trains, but that would be for experts to determine.

I do not see any government going down that route though.

Striking to hit families at Christmas is wrong.

 

[Starmill]

There is support, but it would be better if the strikes about these issues were on working days.

This is what we're trying to say though. The RMT have clearly made a decision a long time ago that this sort of partial, conditional outside support isn't bringing them any benefit. Instead of worrying about people who might offer it, they instead just go for maximum pressure. You can call it "immoral" and maybe you're even correct, I don't know. But this is the way they respond to these situations and it is unlikely to be changed by your reasoning.

Other trade unions take a different approach.

 

[Topological]

This is what we're trying to say though. The RMT have clearly made a decision a long time ago that this sort of partial, conditional outside support isn't bringing them any benefit. Instead of worrying about people who might offer it, they instead just go for maximum pressure. You can call it "immoral" and maybe you're even correct, I don't know. But this is the way they respond to these situations and it is unlikely to be changed by your reasoning.

Other trade unions take a different approach.

It is not "my reasoning" or the reasoning of anyone else who thinks it is wrong.

It is the responsibility of unions to decide when to strike. We are all free to form opinion based on the facts resulting from that decision as presented.

 

[Tractor2018]

LNER could as the ballot paper gave no mention of a strike against MSLs

I wonder if the notification of further dates said they were due to MSL's, or just new dates for what was balloted.

I guess it's a conversation for another place.

 

[Starmill]

It is not "my reasoning" or the reasoning of anyone else who thinks it is wrong.

It is the responsibility of unions to decide when to strike. We are all free to form opinion based on the facts resulting from that decision as presented.

It was your reasoning that "working day strikes would have been possible" and that "there is support" for the strikes. All I'm doing is pointing out there's not a relevant counterfactual in those things. You can hold whatever opinions you like about the union.

 

[Horizon22]

I disagree. It’s passengers who use the trains. It’s passengers who make plans for as and when to use the trains. They are entitled to exactly the same strike notice as the rail company. That’s my thought anyway.

Then it is down to the company to communicate it sooner.

 

[Krokodil]

LNER could as the ballot paper gave no mention of a strike against MSLs

The strikes weren't against MSL. They were part of the national pay dispute. LNER takes action to reduce the effect of a strike, the union counter that by increasing the number of strike days. LNER would have lost any legal action.

 

[MikeWM]

I find it really frustrating that so many in the UK want to completely disregard the thoughts of the population as the blindly followed will of the press. People do form their own opinions from their own knowledge and own lived experiences. The railway is currently giving people a lived experienced that will only increase the probability of alignment of opinion with the opinion of traditionally conservative press outlets.

Exactly this. And the people know full well that after their Christmas travel plans were disrupted by Covid measures in 2020 and 2021, they were disrupted by rail strikes at Christmas 2022, threatened to be disrupted by rail strikes at Christmas 2023 (fortunately didn't happen in the end, but the threat was there until 14 days before), and are now being disrupted by strikes/other action at Christmas 2024.

Look at the article today on this subject in the Independent and the tone of the handful of comments it has attracted so far. That's hardly a right-wing newspaper unsympathetic to unions.

As a passenger, I'm way past caring about the details *why* this all wasn't sorted after 2 years when the new government settled the main part of the strike action, but like everyone else I hoped that was the end of it, at least for a little while. All I want to do is get a train and go to where I want to go in reasonable comfort at a reasonable price, which is increasingly difficult to achieve. I'm sad to say that my enthusiasm for the railway has never been lower than it is right now, and I see little hope of things improving.

 

[Carlisle]

LNER would have lost any legal action.

That wasn’t a certainty when being discussed on here at the time but if it’s since been confirmed as such then fair enough.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Exactly this. And the people know full well that after their Christmas travel plans were disrupted by Covid measures in 2020 and 2021, they were disrupted by rail strikes at Christmas 2022, threatened to be disrupted by rail strikes at Christmas 2023 (fortunately didn't happen in the end, but the threat was there until 14 days before), and are now being disrupted by strikes/other action at Christmas 2024.

Look at the article today on this subject in the Independent and the tone of the handful of comments it has attracted so far. That's hardly a right-wing newspaper unsympathetic to unions.

As a passenger, I'm way past caring about the details *why* this all wasn't sorted after 2 years when the new government settled the main part of the strike action, but like everyone else I hoped that was the end of it, at least for a little while. All I want to do is get a train and go to where I want to go in reasonable comfort at a reasonable price, which is increasingly difficult to achieve. I'm sad to say that my enthusiasm for the railway has never been lower than it is right now, and I see little hope of things improving.

The last bit is key.

The passenger (the people who allow the industry to continue) doesn't care whose fault it is. The industry (government, TOCs and unions) needs to get a grip of this now. Labour have managed to claim they've ended these issues but now more strikes are being announced. Again facts do not matter this will be painted by the right wing press (which we know are listened to widely) as the unions will never get enough and will just keep demanding more from their mates in Labour. This all then builds a perception to new customers (which we need) that the industry isn't to be trusted. The problem is perception and it needs all parties to start to put aside differences and prejudices and work on this together, including making some compromises accepting the world changes. I see no evidence that the key people in the industry are willing to do this based on the tone of press releases.

 

[dangie]

…. Your thought doesn‘t matter. The law says that the union must give the employer 14 days' notice. When the employer decides to pass on that information to customers is up to them.

So the travelling public doesn’t matter? That just about sums up the railway in the public eye nowadays.

I don’t care a toss who informs the public of impending strike action, union or company, I simply think the public need to be informed as soon as possible.

 

[Horizon22]

So the travelling public doesn’t matter? That just about sums up the railway in the public eye nowadays.

I don’t care a toss who informs the public of impending strike action, union or company, I simply think the public need to be informed as soon as possible.

Nobody has necessarily said that.

Just that there is an ordered (and legal) way of doing things. RMT have (presumably) done their bit, but for whatever reason Avanti (nor RMT publicly) haven’t communicated this sooner.

 

[Skiddaw]

So the travelling public doesn’t matter? That just about sums up the railway in the public eye nowadays.

I don’t care a toss who informs the public of impending strike action, union or company, I simply think the public need to be informed as soon as possible.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm due to travel south on 19th and back on 22nd and the hassle of making alternative arrangements this close to the event is off the scale. I'm not concerned about the ins and outs of it- I'm sure the staff have a valid grievance- it's the lack of warning that's seriously got my goat.

 

[Krokodil]

That wasn’t a certainty when being discussed on here at the time but if it’s since been confirmed as such then fair enough.

Announcing additional strike days in the pay dispute was perfectly legal. It had been balloted for and adequate notice was given. Clearly LNER thought so because they didn't risk taking legal action. The fact that random posters on here (with no apparent legal background) disagreed is neither here nor there.

So the travelling public doesn’t matter? That just about sums up the railway in the public eye nowadays.

I don’t care a toss who informs the public of impending strike action, union or company, I simply think the public need to be informed as soon as possible.

Then direct your ire at Avanti, as their customers are their responsibility.

Would you blame the Met Office for a lack of train running information during a storm? Or do you look to the TOC?

 

[Scotrail84]

Disgusting from the RMT. Lost any sympathy for them

The workers have the right to organise and take industrial action if required - which is always a last resort by the way. Do you think staff enjoy imposing OT bans and possibly standing on pickets lines in sub zero conditions?

 

[Topological]

The workers have the right to organise and take industrial action if required - which is always a last resort by the way. Do you think staff enjoy imposing OT bans and possibly standing on pickets lines in sub zero conditions?

The unions absolutely have the right. In exercising their right they have responsibility for what happens next.

Everyone else has the right to respond. IF anyone crosses a line then the responder has responsibility for their response.

It seems to be all about rights on here, rather than thinking what are the responsibilities that come with rights.

By targeting the holidays like this, the unions decision is responsible for a lot of avoidable impact on what many of us feel is the wrong group to impact.

 

[Starmill]

I would strongly encourage those due to travel who are inconvenienced by the late notice changes to services to lodge a complaint formally. This will then be reflected in the statistics and monitoring.

The link to do so online is here: https://www.railhelp.co.uk/avantiwestcoast/make-a-complaint

Alternatively you can email [email protected] or telephone 0345 528 0253 and snail mail Freepost AVANTI WEST COAST. Make sure you're given a reference number for the complaint.

 

[Scotrail84]

The unions absolutely have the right. In exercising their right they have responsibility for what happens next.

Everyone else has the right to respond. IF anyone crosses a line then the responder has responsibility for their response.

It seems to be all about rights on here, rather than thinking what are the responsibilities that come with rights.

By targeting the holidays like this, the unions decision is responsible for a lot of avoidable impact on what many of us feel is the wrong group to impact.

From a union point of view it makes perfect sense to target the holiday season, as bad as this sounds, it's all about maximum impact. Its now down to the management to table a suitable offer to resolve it quickly.

 

[Horizon22]

It seems to be all about rights on here, rather than thinking what are the responsibilities that come with rights.

Out of interest, what do you think those are? If a union withdraws if labour, it basically forfeits both rights and responsibilities for that period.

It is then up to the provider (Avanti / DfT) to make alternative provision or communicate the service disruption as a result.

 

[Topological]

Out of interest, what do you think those are? If a union withdraws if labour, it basically forfeits both rights and responsibilities for that period.

It is then up to the provider (Avanti / DfT) to make alternative provision or communicate the service disruption as a result.

Sorry, I think that we all have responsibilities to wider society. I cannot think of many decisions we make that allow us to forfeit our responsibilities to society.

It is somewhat circular though. Defenders of the unions will not see that hurting people could ever trump their right to strike. Those of us who think about others when we act cannot believe any group could be so selfish over something so minor in the scheme of things. As I have repeatedly said, there is no nominal terms pay cut, there are no redundancies and there is no change to safety. I would be very open to someone explaining which of these is happening.

It does look like Avanti could have communicated earlier. But, that would still leave the dates as chosen and is somewhat of a distraction to the facts of the strike.

 

[DaveB10780]

From a union point of view it makes perfect sense to target the holiday season, as bad as this sounds, it's all about maximum impact. Its now down to the management to table a suitable offer to resolve it quickly.

It sounds very bad and pure anti customer with maximum spite. Did the staff vote for these specific dates or is the solely a RMT "Management" decision. I question whether this is a good way to compromise, doesn't seem so on the surface. What I find worst from a customer point of view is there is little way to express displeasure directly to the staff involved. It seems to be largely forgotten that the railways are a Service Industry.

 

[richardderby]

Avanti really are the pits of a company.. but the RMT and the railways are really losing the goodwill of the people. Not a good time to strike at such short notice

 

[Starmill]

As I have repeatedly said, there is no nominal terms pay cut, there are no redundancies and there is no change to safety. I would be very open to someone explaining which of these is happening.

Other people have already tried to explain to you nicely that your personal criteria aren't the ones by which everyone else is necessarily judging. Unfortunately re-stating your criteria isn't going to make them more relevant to others.

 

[43096]

It is crazy to me how screwed industrial relations are. Absolutely the RMT could be more reasonable. But on the other hand, anyone who, like me, might be "constitutionally" inclined towards being exasparated with bolshy staff needs to see rare (to the public) examples of management-staff communications in the West Worthing RAIB report. Particularly the Appendix:

View attachment 170854

Image shows various passive aggessive notices about bottles of urine written in a sarky tone, e.g:



If I were treated like this I'd be a bolshy staff member too! And there's plenty of other stories on this forum about staff being treated like crap. So they cannot be blamed.

Sorry, but clearly there have been plenty of reminders about that issue and staff are still not listening to something that’s pretty disgusting for other (NR) staff to have to deal with. Behave like children, expect to be spoken to and treated like one.