Displaced 185s..

[pemma]

How many Manchester to Blackpool services are formed of 6x23m trains then? *ONE* - and even thats off peak - a 319 on every service will be a massive overall capacity increase.

Wrong. The 07:10 and the 07:36 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport services are both 6 car between Preston and Manchester Airport. Together with the 2 Northern services which are 180s / pairs of Sprinters, this means if 319s are used on all Blackpool services in single formation then an additional service will need to run to maintain the current peak time capacity. For extra capacity you'd need 2 additional services. Where are the paths going to come from for 2 additional peak time services?

 

[87015]

If 4x20m stock is allocated to this route that will be the upper limit of what can be used on the route, and has significanly less capacity than the 6x23m units that ALREADY run on 3 evening peak diagrams (1616, 1715 and 1816 off Piccadilly) and adding into that most Southport and Preston diagrams off Piccadilly are now formed of 4 car units, a mix of 15, 20 and 23m carrages mind.

If there is no chance of new stock for Northern, then the 319s should be used on routes that can take 4 or 8 car units, for example, Macclesfeild and Stoke, Crewe and Manchester Airport stoppers, where the higher 100mph top speed would also come in handy, and displace the 323s onto the Bolton corridor services so they can be doubled up in the peaks.

The 1616/1716/1816 will all run via Wigan so are irrelevant to the Bolton line! They will presumably be replaced by extra trains via Bolton - with lots of seats no longer occupied by Preston/Lancaster/Scotland bound passengers. There is only one Northern service formed of four cars between Bolton and Preston, so all Northern services would have extra capacity with a 319.

Its a no brainer that if a few 6 car 323s are required then 319s can drop onto current 323 diagrams to form these up, I don't see why 319s are being viewed as totally useless for Northern when they will represent a huge capacity increase.

 

[Nym]

and how do you know that the current lancaster paths will divert via wigan?

 

[pemma]

The 1616/1716/1816 will all run via Wigan so are irrelevant to the Bolton line!

It's not as simple as that as the timetable will require a complete recast.

It would be best looking at the May 2007 timetable when Scottish services were not interworked with other services via Bolton as a starting point, opposed to the current timetable where they are.

There will still be 2 TPE services per hour through Bolton and a Scottish service via Wigan additionally. There are no plans to divert Barrow services via Wigan, as you seem to be suggesting.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No-one has mentioned the fact that the Class 185 units are ideal for running a cross-Pennine service over the type of terrain involved, where their engine capacity is ideal. Surely this is why the units freed by the EMU services to Scotland are ideal for strengthening those TPE services where overcrowding is a problem.

 

[tbtc]

No-one has mentioned the fact that the Class 185 units are ideal for running a cross-Pennine service over the type of terrain involved, where their engine capacity is ideal. Surely this is why the units freed by the EMU services to Scotland are ideal for strengthening those TPE services where overcrowding is a problem.

The 185s are wasted on a route like Manchester Airport - Blackpool, given their powerful performance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not as simple as that as the timetable will require a complete recast.

It would be best looking at the May 2007 timetable when Scottish services were not interworked with other services via Bolton as a starting point, opposed to the current timetable where they are.

There will still be 2 TPE services per hour through Bolton and a Scottish service via Wigan additionally. There are no plans to divert Barrow services via Wigan, as you seem to be suggesting.

Given the complete recast which we agree will happen, how confident are you that Barrow will retain its current bi-hourly service to Manchester (post electrification)?

I wouldn't assume anything yet about future service levels.

 

[pemma]

Given the complete recast which we agree will happen, how confident are you that Barrow will retain its current bi-hourly service to Manchester (post electrification)?

If the Scottish service via Wigan starts in December 2013, I can't see any reason why the through Barrow service wouldn't continue until the end of the current TPE franchise. The only question is really what'll plug the gap via Bolton left by diverting the Scottish service.

The main reason for the complete recast in Dec 13 is not so much that the number of services via Bolton will change but the portion working with Scottish services will stop. That might mean more Barrow/Windermere services are joined on to Blackpool services until Blackpool gets electrified.

I know you've proposed using EMUs on Manchester-Bolton-Preston/Lancaster services and not having regular through services to Barrow/Windermere but I can't see a change being made to the timetable 3 years ahead of wires being up on the line through Bolton.

I think we should look at the Dec 13 timetable when plans are released and then guess on what will happen in Dec 16 after that.

 

[Nym]

Indeed, for example, if Lostock - Wigan isn't electrified, it could see these diesels being sent via Bolton and Wigan in lieu of Northern services and an additional shuttle to Preston.

 

[tbtc]

If the Scottish service via Wigan starts in December 2013, I can't see any reason why the through Barrow service wouldn't continue until the end of the current TPE franchise. The only question is really what'll plug the gap via Bolton left by diverting the Scottish service.

I know you've proposed using EMUs on Manchester-Bolton-Preston/Lancaster services and not having regular through services to Barrow/Windermere but I can't see a change being made to the timetable 3 years ahead of wires being up on the line through Bolton.

I think we should look at the Dec 13 timetable when plans are released and then guess on what will happen in Dec 16 after that.

I'm talking about the recast once the Bolton line is electrified, at which stage all bets are off (e.g. no certainty there'll be a separate TPE franchise).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 185s are wasted on a route like Manchester Airport - Blackpool, given their powerful performance.

My posting was to make reference of the cross-Pennine suitability of the Class 185 units. The fact that First TPE have the Class 185 in their operation fleet is reason for using them on the services to Blackpool...or what other part of the First TPE fleet do you suggest would be able to better cope with the loadings on the Manchester Airport to Blackpool route, and if so, what routes that First TPE run do you then consider to be the beneficiaries of the Class 185 units cascaded from that particular route ?

 

[sprinterguy]

My posting was to make reference of the cross-Pennine suitability of the Class 185 units. The fact that First TPE have the Class 185 in their operation fleet is reason for using them on the services to Blackpool...or what other part of the First TPE fleet do you suggest would be able to better cope with the loadings on the Manchester Airport to Blackpool route, and if so, what routes that First TPE run do you then consider to be the beneficiaries of the Class 185 units cascaded from that particular route ?

Hmmm...how many diagrams are there on the Manchester Airport to Blackpool service I wonder?

Would it be possible perhaps to form up four pairs from TPEs' fleet of nine 170/3s (Leaving one as a maintenance spare) to cover all the Blackpool services once the Scottish TPE services go electric, replacing three car trains (154 seats standard class, plus 12 tip-up, and 15 first class) with four car ones (216 standard class seats, 16 first class)?

I know that the reason that the 170s are used on the services they are at the moment is because of axle weight resrictions for the 185s, but really the 185s should be seeing as much use as possible on the cross-pennine routes that they have been essentially designed for.

Just a thought...

 

[pemma]

I know that the reason that the 170s are used on the services they are at the moment is because of axle weight resrictions for the 185s, but really the 185s should be seeing as much use as possible on the cross-pennine routes that they have been essentially designed for.

That's not really still the case. They were originally put on the Hull services for that reason and were supposed to be mainly 4 car operation after refurbishment. However, when 185s got nabbed for the Scottish services it meant the majority of 170s were diagrammed to run in 2 car formation on the quieter Manchester to Hull and Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes services, so Manchester to Hull sees a fair number of 185s now.

However, 4 car 170s on Blackpool services sounds like a good idea. However, it may be a good idea to keep some as 185 operation to allow 6 car portion working with Barrow/Windermere services, if required.

 

[sprinterguy]

That's not really still the case. They were originally put on the Hull services for that reason and were supposed to be mainly 4 car operation after refurbishment. However, when 185s got nabbed for the Scottish services it meant the majority of 170s were diagrammed to run in 2 car formation on the quieter Manchester to Hull and Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes services, so Manchester to Hull sees a fair number of 185s now.

I had a feeling that that was the case. I sort of lost track of what the TPE 170s were meant to be up to when they started to move away from the Hull services and started operating as 2 car services elsewhere.

 

[ValleyLines142]

319s are just over 20 years old, so still have at least 20 years of life left and therefore are hardly "out of date". I'm sure they would get major interior overhauls before being transfered. As far as style is concerned, who cares what it looks like when you are travelling on it? It's definitly not "vitally important"! Actually getting on the train is important. Getting a seat is up there for long journies. Cost is important too. Style, I doubt most people care, especially not the "normals" who can't tell trains apart anyway (and will often be fooled into thinking very old trains are new if refurbished to decent standards).

So for people like me who travel to Blackpool quite regularly on a 185, which is 7 years old, I'd have no choice but to travel on a train that will be nearly 30 years old?? That really isn't thought out, not the best of plans, really not. The 319's would have to be deeply refurbished, and it would be so expensive as I said before.

The idea of 380's is good, as these are modern and have more cars. 319s should stick to Liverpool services personally.

The 185's currently have plug sockets, a lovely first class section, tables, the full hog. 319s don't have that. You can't just shove any train in place of any other train, thought has to be carried out!

Also, the 319s aren't going to TPE are they?! In fact they'll probably be scrapped by then :L

 

[tbtc]

So for people like me who travel to Blackpool quite regularly on a 185, which is 7 years old, I'd have no choice but to travel on a train that will be nearly 30 years old?? That really isn't thought out, not the best of plans, really not. The 319's would have to be deeply refurbished, and it would be so expensive as I said before.

The idea of 380's is good, as these are modern and have more cars. 319s should stick to Liverpool services personally.

The 185's currently have plug sockets, a lovely first class section, tables, the full hog. 319s don't have that. You can't just shove any train in place of any other train, thought has to be carried out!

Also, the 319s aren't going to TPE are they?! In fact they'll probably be scrapped by then :L

So 319s aren't good enough for people like you travelling to Blackpool, but you are happy for Scousers to have them?

 

[Nym]

At least I'm arguing the toss on actual capacity and platform lengths rather than how nice the train is/looks.

Would be quite happy to see 323s on the route, refurbed 319s on off peak services would be fine.

 

[sprinterguy]

Also, the 319s aren't going to TPE are they?!

No, TPE will be receiving ten 350s for the Manchester to Scotland service, which is to be diverted via Wigan. Northern operated 319s are expected to take up the Manchester to Preston via Bolton paths made available by diverting TPE services away from the route.

 

[pemma]

No, TPE will be receiving ten 350s for the Manchester to Scotland service, which is to be diverted via Wigan. Northern operated 319s are expected to take up the Manchester to Preston via Bolton services made available by diverting TPE services away from the route.

People keep forgetting that all changes are not happening simultaneously.

December 2013 should see Manchester to Scotland services run by 350s via Wigan. The Bolton line isn't going for ready for electric units until December 2016. Northern won't have any spare DMUs to operate additional services on the Bolton corridor* so TPE will have to use released 185s to interwork something with the 2 hourly Airport-Barrow service.

* The Liverpool end of the Chat Moss route won't be electrified until the year after.

By 2016 the new Northern and TPE franchise(s) will be operating. It is expected that Manchester Airport to Blackpool will go in to the same franchise as the 319 operated routes.

The future franchise divisions aren't clear and will partly depend what happens with other franchises, especially the East and West Coast franchises. However, it is very likely that the current TPE routes will be split between different franchises.

 

[sprinterguy]

People keep forgetting that all changes are not happening simultaneously.

December 2013 should see Manchester to Scotland services run by 350s via Wigan. The Bolton line isn't going for ready for electric units until December 2016. Northern won't have any spare DMUs to operate additional services on the Bolton corridor* so TPE will have to use released 185s to interwork something with the 2 hourly Airport-Barrow service.

* The Liverpool end of the Chat Moss route won't be electrified until the year after.

By 2016 the new Northern and TPE franchise(s) will be operating. It is expected that Manchester Airport to Blackpool will go in to the same franchise as the 319 operated routes.

The future franchise divisions aren't clear and will partly depend what happens with other franchises, especially the East and West Coast franchises. However, it is very likely that the current TPE routes will be split between different franchises.

Oh yeah, good point. There's going to be a whole three years between the Manchester - Scotland services being diverted via Wigan and the route through Bolton being electrified.

 

[Nym]

Could expect to see TPE's Turbostars operating up to Barrow... Or some other units coming to play on that route, but god knows where from, TBH, Barrow/Windermere and Manchester - Scotland could end up with the ICWC franchise, and we'd be seeing 221 Voyagers operating up to Windermere and Barrow...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And also, it may not be the case of 'Manchester - Scotland services being diverted'

It could be that the clockface paths through Bolton to Lancaster get sent on to Barrow or Windermere instead of Scotland keeping the standard clockface pattern with the Manchester - Scotland services running IN ADDITION to the current paths in Manchester, completely unrelated to everything else.

Looking at the hourly departure pattern

Over the CLC xx:07 and xx:37
Up to Preston via Bolton xx:16 and xx:46, xx:22 and xx:54
And onto the Chat Moss xx:01 and xx:50...
Now I can see a gaping huge gap there in the world of sense at xx:31 off Piccadilly for the Scotland via Chat Moss service (Although that currently is a freight path IIRC), there is also the opertinity to flight it behind the Liverpool via Chat Moss before the Liverpool via CLC gets in, although running in the opersite path at xx:31 would provide a nice amount of dwell time at Piccadilly.

Theres also space opersite the ATW at xx:20, but again, freight needs somwhere...! And IIRC ATW runs additional Chesters in that path.

 

[pemma]

They will be diverted in the sense that Bolton will no longer have a direct Scottish service. However, running them not interworked with other services between Manchester and Preston, as used to happen under Virgin, would make sense.

 

[tbtc]

Could expect to see TPE's Turbostars operating up to Barrow... Or some other units coming to play on that route, but god knows where from, TBH, Barrow/Windermere and Manchester - Scotland could end up with the ICWC franchise, and we'd be seeing 221 Voyagers operating up to Windermere and Barrow...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And also, it may not be the case of 'Manchester - Scotland services being diverted'

It could be that the clockface paths through Bolton to Lancaster get sent on to Barrow or Windermere instead of Scotland keeping the standard clockface pattern with the Manchester - Scotland services running IN ADDITION to the current paths in Manchester, completely unrelated to everything else.

Looking at the hourly departure pattern

Over the CLC xx:07 and xx:37
Up to Preston via Bolton xx:16 and xx:46, xx:22 and xx:54
And onto the Chat Moss xx:01 and xx:50...
Now I can see a gaping huge gap there in the world of sense at xx:31 off Piccadilly for the Scotland via Chat Moss service (Although that currently is a freight path IIRC), there is also the opertinity to flight it behind the Liverpool via Chat Moss before the Liverpool via CLC gets in, although running in the opersite path at xx:31 would provide a nice amount of dwell time at Piccadilly.

Theres also space opersite the ATW at xx:20, but again, freight needs somwhere...! And IIRC ATW runs additional Chesters in that path.

My expectation is four EMUs/ hour from Manchester to Preston through Bolton (in addition to the Scottish services via the Wigan route), with no regular daytime "through" services to Barrow/ Windermere.

Plus four DMUs/ hour from Manchester through Bolton (3x Wigan, 1x Blackburn), possibly all from the Airport.

Run the four EMUs from Piccadilly and the four DMUs from Victoria (possibly some as extensions of Yorkshire services).

Just my hunch...

 

[Nym]

Just checked the arrivals timetable, would be possible, using the xx:31 notional path to the Chat Moss to run as an extension of the xx:20 service off Euston
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My expectation is four EMUs/ hour from Manchester to Preston through Bolton (in addition to the Scottish services via the Wigan route), with no regular daytime "through" services to Barrow/ Windermere.

Plus four DMUs/ hour from Manchester through Bolton (3x Wigan, 1x Blackburn), possibly all from the Airport.

Run the four EMUs from Piccadilly and the four DMUs from Victoria (possibly some as extensions of Yorkshire services).

Just my hunch...

I'd be happy with that... (If I was still living here)

Whats your throught, total re-cast to a 15min timetable? But what to do with the stopper, speed up the current DMU and have a vic terminate at Bolton with an EMU?

And as for the Southport - Airport service?

I've seen notion of a drop to 3tph from Bolton to Oxford Road... with more into Victoria, now it would be easyer to fit all these in, but then off Oxford Road you'd be looking at
4tph Curve
3tph Chat Moss
3/4tph CLC
3tph Windsor

But tbh, it would need a massive re-write of the timetable to manage anything significant...

When electrification is complete, personally, keeping the same notional franchises, if different 'TPE' refers to the stock pool of 185 units.

Airport - Southport handed over to 'TPE' and combined with the Barrow service.

This would run xx:00 off Airport, devide at Bolton with the Southport portion running on in the current Southport Path.
Returning, the xx:08 would come into Bolton and wait for the xx:13 to arrive and combine.

This would give Bolton to Oxford Road & Aiport this pattern:

xx:13 Airport (6 car 185)
xx:35 Airport (Should be somthing long, 6x23m would be nice, all day, it's always busy!)
xx:56 Hazel Grove (Same again, 6x23m please!)

That would be roughly a 20min pattern to Oxford Road.

I'd then change these..
The current stopping service is curtailed or diverted, terminating either at Bolton or Horwich Parkway, run by EMU.
Wigan Wallgate - Victoria moves to a standard 4tph, 2 via Bolton 2 via Atherton, not including the Southport service via Bolton, Wigan via Bolton calls at a standard station pattern, new service potentially flighted in front of the stopper, or look at a total re-cast of services on that route.

Victoria - Blackpool North would obviously move over to EMU and continue to terminate in Victoria
Victoria - Blackburn - Clitheroe would continue to do the same, with additional peak hour shuttles between Blackburn and Bolton, terminate in a reversing siding south of Platform 1, only accessable from such. This isn't continuing to Victoria due to the fact that 50% of passengers in the peak jump off to get to Oxford Road, bringing me neatly to crowdbusters from Horwich.

From a new bay or siding at Horwich, 4x20m unit run into and terminate at Oxford Road in the AM peak as a releif unit, possibly into Victoria as a 6x23m unit.

Key routes:
Bolton - Oxford Road: 3tph, all 6x23m
Bolton - Wigan: 3tph
Bolton - Preston: 4tph
Bolton - Victoria: 5tph (2 Wigan, 1 Blackpool, 1 Horwich/Bolton, 1 Blackburn)
Bolton - Blackburn: 1/2tph

 

[tbtc]

I'd be happy with that... (If I was still living here)

Whats your throught, total re-cast to a 15min timetable? But what to do with the stopper, speed up the current DMU and have a vic terminate at Bolton with an EMU?

And as for the Southport - Airport service?

I think there will have to be at least one re-cast in the next few years round there, especially if they want to get the most out of the EMUs (minimising DMUs under the wires).

Four hour from Manchester Airport to Preston (two running "fast" and extending to Blackpool, two "slow")
Four hour from Victoria to Bolton (one to Blackburn, three to Wigan)

That way stations have a "common" Manchester station (Bolton is such a big flow that four/hour to both Pic and Vic sounds okay).

Southport - Airport would be chopped, at the risk of upsetting Paul I think that simplifying service patterns is more important than giving everywhere a direct Airport link.

 

[Nym]

Oh I'd be happy with that state of affairs, if, and only if...

It was run with appropriate stock...

Would you be open to...

2tph Hazel Grove - Preston
2tph Airport - Blackpool N

All run with 323s, doubled up in the peaks.

And runnign with 12 - 18min gaps, but since I commute Bolton - Oxford Road I'm kinda biased...

And possibly
Lostock - Wigan was on the cards for more wires.

 

[tbtc]

Oh I'd be happy with that state of affairs, if, and only if...

It was run with appropriate stock...

Would you be open to...

2tph Hazel Grove - Preston
2tph Airport - Blackpool N

All run with 323s, doubled up in the peaks.

And runnign with 12 - 18min gaps, but since I commute Bolton - Oxford Road I'm kinda biased...

And possibly
Lostock - Wigan was on the cards for more wires.

That sounds fine by me

An exact fifteen minute split would be a nuisance to diagram, especially with only some stopping at certain stations north of Bolton, so a 12/18 split sounds fair

 

[Nym]

But by the time all this happens, work will have taken me away from Bolton.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Southport - Airport would be chopped, at the risk of upsetting Paul... I think that simplifying service patterns is more important than giving everywhere a direct Airport link.

The Manchester to Southport service should have always stayed a Manchester Victoria based service in the first place, like the Kirkby service that also serves Wigan Wallgate station. I am more than happy to see the end of the Southport link to the airport as this will give the Pacers one less reason to be seen at Manchester Airport and would release paths through the Manchester Piccadilly to Deansgate section. The Wigan Wallgate station on this route will eventually be covered by Wigan North Western services that will not be passing through Bolton. I can be heartless as anyone if it means no Pacers being seen at Manchester Airport. Mind you, if they were there, they could have a front banner on them saying "Metrolink Trials"...or words to that effect.:roll:

As a special treat to you, if they do have to pass through Manchester Piccadilly, how about a Southport-Wigan-Manchester-Stockport-Sheffield service ?.....Nym does not have the sole franchise for "hypothetical" routes.

 

[Nym]

Sheffo - Manc should get sent via New Mills and the wires and services extended from Hazel Grove to Chinley, I'm not a fan of small services on the Stockport Viaduct, especially those that are frequently screwed like the Sheffeild stopper, but then again, I'd have Chinley as a rather significant interchange and terminating station for everything from Hazel Grove, from Ashburys. Anything running through the Hope Valley Northern, EMT or TPE wise would call, and run limited stop into Manchester. (Guide Bridge or Stockport ONLY).

Would also facilitate a handy interchange for when the route to Matlock re-opens...

 

[tbtc]

The Manchester to Southport service should have always stayed a Manchester Victoria based service in the first place, like the Kirkby service that also serves Wigan Wallgate station. I am more than happy to see the end of the Southport link to the airport as this will give the Pacers one less reason to be seen at Manchester Airport and would release paths through the Manchester Piccadilly to Deansgate section. The Wigan Wallgate station on this route will eventually be covered by Wigan North Western services that will not be passing through Bolton. I can be heartless as anyone if it means no Pacers being seen at Manchester Airport. Mind you, if they were there, they could have a front banner on them saying "Metrolink Trials"...or words to that effect.:roll:

As a special treat to you, if they do have to pass through Manchester Piccadilly, how about a Southport-Wigan-Manchester-Stockport-Sheffield service ?.....Nym does not have the sole franchise for "hypothetical" routes.

A Southport - Sheffield service? That may work well, given the lack of seaside services from Sheffield (our Blackpool services were taken many years ago, meaning a choice of either Cleethorpes or Scarborough nowadays). There's probably some Stockport - Wigan trade too, linking two sides of greater Manchester.

The important thing would be to tidy the muddle of routes around Manchester, so that there passengers could turn up without worrying too much about a timetable, rather than the random assortment of routes that overlap with each other at the moment.

I've no problem with Pacers at Manchester Airport though; most places in "the North" have Pacers, we're all in it together after all...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sheffo - Manc should get sent via New Mills and the wires and services extended from Hazel Grove to Chinley, I'm not a fan of small services on the Stockport Viaduct, especially those that are frequently screwed like the Sheffeild stopper, but then again, I'd have Chinley as a rather significant interchange and terminating station for everything from Hazel Grove, from Ashburys. Anything running through the Hope Valley Northern, EMT or TPE wise would call, and run limited stop into Manchester. (Guide Bridge or Stockport ONLY).

Would also facilitate a handy interchange for when the route to Matlock re-opens...

It'll be interesting to see whether more Sheffield services get pushed through Marple, once the TPE North services free up paths through Ashburys.

I take your point about small services being a "waste" of a path over the Stockport bottleneck, but the same could be said of the Chester service or the three coach EMUs on the Wilmslow service.