To an extent I agree, but it won't stop people complaining - if you cut it too fine under the current system, you'd probably still cut it too fine under that one.
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Reopening doors
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And how does one do that? Unexpected delays en route and possibly even a ticket barrier not accepting a perfectly valid ticket
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I couldn't agree more!
PermitToTravel
Established Member
Isn't this why there are two timetables?
scotsman
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One of many reasons - but the departure time on both timetables is often the same
Deepgreen
Established Member
Or early?!
Amy Worrall
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Had a good experience (for once!) at Euston the other day. Rushing to get the 22:30 train to the West Midlands. Not the last train of the day, but there's only one more and I'd have had an hour to wait. Got to the top of the escalators from the tube at 22:27. Ran to the platform, arrived at about 22:29, after the train had disappeared from the screens and they were shutting the gates. I ran full tilt down towards the gate, brandishing my ticket, and calling "Please?" to the staff members… they let me through, one of the train staff directed me to which door to use, and I was just sitting down as the train pulled off.
I didn't intend to cut it that fine, but the tube trains hadn't aligned for me that day —*I make the journey every week and normally I get there with about five minutes before they lock the doors.
I didn't intend to cut it that fine, but the tube trains hadn't aligned for me that day —*I make the journey every week and normally I get there with about five minutes before they lock the doors.
Leave in plenty of time, it aint rocket science.
I allow enough time for a bit of a delay, normally 50% more time than I expect it to take allowing for the time of day (rush hour etc) and if the couple of minutes it takes to sort out the ticket barrier causes you to miss the train then you obviously didnt allow enough time did you!
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And you think 5 minutes leeway for an hourly service is sufficient do you?
Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me!
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I do not have to wait for my car. Therefore, expecting people to turn up a long time in advance to travel by train, which except for mainline journeys invariably takes longer anyway, is unreasonable.
If that is not workable, the railway needs to change its procedures, or its passengers will change their modes of transport for their cars.
Personally, I would say 5 minutes before for a journey with a ticket already held (or the minimum connection time for that station if longer), and 15-20 minutes before if a ticket needs to be purchased, are reasonable times.
If that is not workable, the railway needs to change its procedures, or its passengers will change their modes of transport for their cars.
Personally, I would say 5 minutes before for a journey with a ticket already held (or the minimum connection time for that station if longer), and 15-20 minutes before if a ticket needs to be purchased, are reasonable times.
Can you guarantee what time you will arrive in your car?
I mean to within 5 minutes every time? <edit- I see in another thread you are allowing the car a 90 minute window on arrival time, if that happened on the railway you would get at least half your money back, making the railway journey cheaper than the car.
:roll:If you are so pro road/ anti rail why are you on a rail forum?
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I doubt it.
We have a captive market. Feel free to take your car, nobody really cares. Sorry if that sounds harsh but commuters can be especially cutthroat. One less passenger is more room for those on the train.
I would love to see you make this argument with the airline industry...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Most of the time, the car is not a viable competitor to air, so it is not a relevant argument in that regard.
axlecounter
Member
Would that prevent people from arriving 2 sec after the specified minute?
I am not certain but is it not the driver that operates the doors? Without the protocol from the TOC on this issue nobody can tell who is right or wrong.
43096
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The other way of looking at it is that "departure time" is exactly what it says it is - the time the train departs. Not when the doors close, the time it starts moving.
This debate rather reminds of this quote...
"Theres only one moment in which you can arrive in time. If youre not there, youre either too early or too late."
From, of course, the late, great Johan Cruyff
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm not anti-rail. I'm anti the railway taking a passenger-unfriendly line, and realistic about what the competition is.
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No, but it would reduce confusion that comes from a very inconsistent approach.
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Indeed, but that's about as useful as pushback time on a flight - what the passenger needs to know in both cases is the last time they can get on.
I don't find it to be nearly as inconsistent as you make it out to be.
Please do remember also that encouraging literal late 'runners' is heavily frowned up. This is because there are hundreds if not thousands of accidents every year and actual fatalities every now and then because people have decided to leg it for the train and fell on the stairs or platform and broken a leg, arm, or smashed their head or even worse collided with someone else and caused an innocent person an injury. The TOC I work for removes trains from main departure summary screens two minutes before departure to attempt to prevent this.
Personal experience confirms having to pick up someone up from a pool of their own blood and teeth and then clean it up is unpleasant.
Personal experience confirms having to pick up someone up from a pool of their own blood and teeth and then clean it up is unpleasant.
You're never going to stop people running for trains, even on lines with a high frequency.
Nope. But given it's me that has to clean up the result and fill in the paperwork I have no interest in rewarding those that try.
Deepgreen
Established Member
Rather than descend into the old debate about how early trains should be departing (provocative, moi?), it is clear that the OP's question cannot be answered definitively - every instance will be different.
I drive both DOO and 1 route has a Guard. For DOO I would be 100% in control of the doors and with a Guard I would still be in control of the doors as I am the one who opens them; the Guard only closes the doors.
As to protocol. There is nothing to state I should reopen the doors and only how the door close procedure should take place. However; it does state in the guidelines that you should not reopen doors as it may lead to incidents (off side release etc.) As you should never close the doors until you are sure that nobody else is boarding or alighting then there should be no reason to reopen them. So not having a policy or procedure about reopening makes perfect sense. If you did then you would simply follow the door close procedure again.
Its quite clear that if the train safety check is carried out before you close the doors then there is absolutely no reason to reopen. The debate really isn't about safety, procedures, reopening doors etc. It is about access to platforms, passenger behaviours, PTI, dwell times etc.
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trainophile
Established Member
Many thanks to the Merseyrail guard who reopened the shutting doors as I dashed down the steps today at Liverpool South Parkway. I had intended catching the next train, but it turned out the earlier one was a running a couple of minutes late - had I known I would have rushed more between my arrival on the high level platforms and P6. As it was, I heard it pull in just as I reached the top of the stairwell, and ran down the steps (there are a lot of them!) reaching the platform just as the doors were starting to close. The guard saw me and very kindly reversed his closing procedure, and I was able to board. I did give him a very quick wave!
I looked out for the guard on reaching Southport to say thanks properly, but I got swept along in the large number of passengers so was unable to do so. If by any chance he reads these forums, thank you so much!
I looked out for the guard on reaching Southport to say thanks properly, but I got swept along in the large number of passengers so was unable to do so. If by any chance he reads these forums, thank you so much!
D1009
Established Member
OK, if you can absolutely guarantee that your train will always depart on time and arrive at its destination on time, then I will always guarantee to be there in plenty of time to catch it. If not, can we just get on with the real world?Can you guarantee what time you will arrive in your car?
I mean to within 5 minutes every time? <edit- I see in another thread you are allowing the car a 90 minute window on arrival time, if that happened on the railway you would get at least half your money back, making the railway journey cheaper than the car.
philthetube
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thumbs and sucking come to mine, you cannot guarantee a car will arrive on time and the same for a train, grow up folks.
bramling
Veteran Member
I don't quite follow this, for surely there will be occasions when - even if you've ensured everyone is clear before closing up - someone will appear at the moment the doors close. Where I am there's nothing written down anywhere about re-opening, however there are drivers who have been sent to disciplinary for keeping the doors closed with someone obstructing them. If someone becomes caught (either deliberately or accidentally) then there's really only two options - keep them closed and "assist" the passenger to remove themselves, or re-open. The former is heavily frowned upon (though nothing in writing prohibits it!), both for the risk of injury to the passenger, and for the potential delay. In the cases I'm thinking of, as far as I know the drivers were disciplined for something vague in company policies, not sure exactly what but something to do with health & safety, rather than anything in the RB.
(I'm not attempting to debate the rights or wrongs of what you and/or I think should ideally happen, just where we are!)
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The only thing that sometimes makes me have sympathy for late runners is that it's not really possible to reliably predict how long the visit to the ticket office will take. At my local station this can vary enormously - most of the time a passenger would turn up and be served within a couple of minutes. However it's quite possible to turn up on a bad day (eg just after Christmas, or certain times at weekends) and be faced with a queue stretching out the door. Alternatively it's possible to be unlucky and get a couple of people in front taking ages for one reason or another. I don't think it's entirely reasonable for passengers to be expected to guess which times are likely to be unusually busy. How much time is reasonable to allow? 5 mins? 10 mins? 20 mins? 30 mins? (etc)
What I find more irritating is where people rush for a train where there is a turn-up-and-go frequency.
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Reminds me of this: YouTube link
trainophile
Established Member
How long would you classify a turn up and go frequency?
My Merseyrail event the other day wasn't critical as they run every 15 minutes, but it would still have been annoying to miss it by about two seconds!
My Merseyrail event the other day wasn't critical as they run every 15 minutes, but it would still have been annoying to miss it by about two seconds!
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