Northern rolling stock plan once new DMU's introduced?

43074 · 6 Apr 2016

I've just done my own analysis of the numbers, the current fleet is:
Class 142 - 79 (158 vehicles)
Class 144 - 23 (56 vehicles - a mix of 13 2-car and 10 3-car)
Class 150/1 - 30 (60 vehicles)
Class 150/2 - 28 (56 vehicles)
Class 153 - 18 (1-car)
Class 155 - 7 (14-vehicles)
Class 156 - 42 (82 vehicles)
Class 158 - 45 (98 vehicles - a mix of 8 3-car and 37 2-car)
Class 319 - 20 (80 vehicles, 4-car)
Class 321 & 322 - 8 (32 vehicles, 4-car)
Class 323 - 17 (51 vehicles, 3-car)
Class 333 - 16 (64 vehicles, 4-car)
743 vehicles formed as 333 trains

which will become

Class 150/1 - 34 (68 vehicles)
Class 150/2 - 20 (40 vehicles)
Class 150/9 - 16 (48 vehicles, hybrid 3-car units)
Class 155 - 7 (14 vehicles)
Class 156 - 47 (94 vehicles)
Class 158 - 53 (114 vehicles - a mix of 8 3-car and 45 2-car)
Class 170/4 - 16 (39 vehicles, 3-car)
Class 195/0 - 25 (50 vehicles, 2-car)
Class 195/1 - 30 (90 vehicles, 3-car)
Class 319 - 32 (128 vehicles, 4-car)
Class 331 - 43 (141 vehicles, 31 3-car and 12 4-car)
Class 333 - 16 (64 vehicles, 4-car)
Giving 899 vehicles formed as 339 trains, and an overall increase in fleet size of 6 trains or 156 vehicles.

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WatcherZero · 6 Apr 2016

Though also removal of Pacers and replacement with longer carriaged trains will lead to a greater increase in seats than the vehicle/train count would indicate.

507021 · 6 Apr 2016

TheBigD said:
Not sure your class 158 figures add up...
Currently they have 37 x 2 car and 8 x 3 car...

Fair enough, I got my 158 numbers mixed up, so I apologise in that case.

TheBigD said:
They are getting an additional 8 x 2 car (16 vehicles) which even if reformed into more 3 car units doesn't make an additional 6 x 3 car units (18 vehicles)...

I didn't say there'd be an additional six 3 car units made from the eight Class 158s coming from ScotRail, I said that if they were reformed there'd be four 3 car units (12 carriages) and two 2 car units (4 carriages), which totals sixteen carriages.

507021 said:
There are 16 Class 158 carriages due to arrive from Abellio ScotRail, which as has been said previously, some of these will be converted to 3 car units. As there's sixteen carriages then there will be four 3 car (twelve carriages) and two 2 car units (four carriages)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

43074 said:
I've just done my own analysis of the numbers, the current fleet is:
743 vehicles formed as 333 trains

which will become
Giving 899 vehicles formed as 339 trains, and an overall increase in fleet size of 6 trains or 156 vehicles.

Thanks for clearing that up, much appreciated.

TheBigD · 6 Apr 2016

507021 said:
Fair enough, I got my 158 numbers mixed up, so I apologise in that case..

You have absolutely no need to apologise, I'm just interested in what the final fleet will look like...

507021 · 6 Apr 2016

TheBigD said:
You have absolutely no need to apologise, I'm just interested in what the final fleet will look like...

Thanks. For some unknown reason, I had in my mind that the ten 158/9s were three car units (when of course, they aren't), I really had no idea why. Never mind though, as my fleetlist is indeed correct after all and shows 158752-758 as the Northern 3 car Class 158s, with the rest of the Northern 158/0s and the 158/9s as 2 car units as yourself and 43074 have both said.

Me too, the one thing I'm looking forward to seeing (apart from the 195s and 331s obviously) is the reformed 150/9s. The extra capacity they will provide will be extremely useful, a good decision, I think.

ryan125hst · 6 Apr 2016

Thanks for your input so far all.

So essentially, Northern will, in addition to the new DMU's and EMU's, receive cascaded Class 150's and 170's as well as a smaller number of 156's and 158's.

43074 said:
Giving 899 vehicles formed as 339 trains, and an overall increase in fleet size of 6 trains or 156 vehicles.

WatcherZero said:
Though also removal of Pacers and replacement with longer carriaged trains will lead to a greater increase in seats than the vehicle/train count would indicate.

This is a key fact by the looks of it. The addition of six trains doesn't look that great and I would question how they'd be able to run additional services to increase the frequency of trains such as between Retford and Sheffield. However, 156 vehicles seems a far greater increase, and when you consider the fact that these vehicles will have a far greater capacity that one Pacer vehicle, it will all add up.

I'd imagine one three coach 195 will replace a four car Pacer, so on a diagrams where two Pacers are coupled all day it will allow one train to replace two effectively.

What will happen to Transpennine Express's Class 185's? I know at least some of them will be staying with TPE, but it was being discussed that they may end up with Northern. Was this just rumours and therefore will no longer be happening? I guess they're not really needed as they are 100 mph long distance units like the 195's. Are they all staying with TPE to strengthen services or will some end up elsewhere?

sprinterguy · 6 Apr 2016

ryan125hst said:
What will happen to Transpennine Express's Class 185's? Are they all staying with TPE to strengthen services or will some end up elsewhere?

Twenty two class 185s will be leaving the TPE franchise. As far as I know, a future home has yet to be confirmed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

43074 said:
That looks right to me, although I'd add that 24 150s will be reformed to form 16 3-car 150s.

Ooh, the hybrid 150s are coming back.

I hoped that might be the case.

Out of curiosity, where has this been stated?

43074 · 6 Apr 2016

sprinterguy said:
Twenty two class 185s will be leaving the TPE franchise. As far as I know, a future home has yet to be confirmed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ooh, the hybrid 150s are coming back. I hoped that might be the case.

Out of curiosity, where has this been stated?

It was in ''Proud to be Northern'' - a staff magazine which is available on issuu - page 11.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ryan125hst said:
This is a key fact by the looks of it. The addition of six trains doesn't look that great and I would question how they'd be able to run additional services to increase the frequency of trains such as between Retford and Sheffield. However, 156 vehicles seems a far greater increase, and when you consider the fact that these vehicles will have a far greater capacity that one Pacer vehicle, it will all add up.

I think the key point is that many diagrams run as pairs of units - e.g. the pair of 155+153 combinations on the Knaresborough services - but these will be replaced by 3-car trains, meaning that they will be able to do more with what they have.

I'd imagine one three coach 195 will replace a four car Pacer, so on a diagrams where two Pacers are coupled all day it will allow one train to replace two effectively.

It will almost certainly not be that simple! Bearing in mind the 195s will be on the Connect services - most of which aren't even Pacers now - so although in theory that is the case, it will not be that way in practice. There will be a big trickle down effect for want of a better description.

sprinterguy · 6 Apr 2016

43074 said:
It was in ''Proud to be Northern'' - a staff magazine which is available on issuu - page 11.

Cheers for that.

It's good to see more and more details being made public.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

507021 said:
43074 has said that 24 of the 150s are to be reformed into sixteen 3 car units, so that will presumably see 24 150/2 carriages (twelve units overall) inserted into the middle of 24 150/1s.

Or more logically that eight 150/2 units will be split in two for individual vehicles to be inserted into the centre of sixteen other 150 units, hence a total of 24 x 2-car trains becoming 16 x 3-car.

Mordac · 6 Apr 2016

43074 said:
I've just done my own analysis of the numbers, the current fleet is:
Class 142 - 79 (158 vehicles)
Class 144 - 23 (56 vehicles - a mix of 13 2-car and 10 3-car)
Class 150/1 - 30 (60 vehicles)
Class 150/2 - 28 (56 vehicles)
Class 153 - 18 (1-car)
Class 155 - 7 (14-vehicles)
Class 156 - 42 (82 vehicles)
Class 158 - 45 (98 vehicles - a mix of 8 3-car and 37 2-car)
Class 319 - 20 (80 vehicles, 4-car)
Class 321/2 - 8 (32 vehicles, 4-car)
Class 323 - 17 (51 vehicles, 3-car)
Class 333 - 16 (64 vehicles, 4-car)
743 vehicles formed as 333 trains

which will become

Class 150/1 - 34 (68 vehicles)
Class 150/2 - 20 (40 vehicles)
Class 150/9 - 16 (48 vehicles, hybrid 3-car units)
Class 155 - 7 (14 vehicles)
Class 156 - 47 (94 vehicles)
Class 158 - 53 (114 vehicles - a mix of 8 3-car and 45 2-car)
Class 170/4 - 16 (39 vehicles, 3-car)
Class 195/0 - 25 (50 vehicles, 2-car)
Class 195/1 - 30 (90 vehicles, 3-car)
Class 319 - 32 (128 vehicles, 4-car)
Class 331 - 43 (141 vehicles, 31 3-car and 12 4-car)
Class 333 - 16 (64 vehicles, 4-car)
Giving 899 vehicles formed as 339 trains, and an overall increase in fleet size of 6 trains or 156 vehicles.

Massive thanks for this, it's hugely appreciated! Just one small question, don't they have only 3 321s rather than 8 at the moment?

43074 · 6 Apr 2016

Mordac said:
Massive thanks for this, it's hugely appreciated! Just one small question, don't they have only 3 321s rather than 8 at the moment?

No problem! Cleared things up for me as well! The 321 total includes the 322s, I'll make that slightly clearer.

Mordac · 6 Apr 2016

43074 said:
No problem! Cleared things up for me as well! The 321 total includes the 322s, I'll make that slightly clearer.

And now it all makes sense! Thanks a lot.

Question not just for you but for anyone who might know: do we have an ETA for these movements, both in and out? I gather that the 12 extra 319s are arriving this year?

Class 170101 · 6 Apr 2016

I believe its a 15% capacity increase over todays fleet numbers.

Whether thats enough is a different matter.

43074 · 6 Apr 2016

Mordac said:
And now it all makes sense! Thanks a lot.

Question not just for you but for anyone who might know: do we have an ETA for these movements, both in and out? I gather that the 12 extra 319s are arriving this year?

As I understand it, and as published in the article in Rail 797, the inward/outbound dates are
Out:
153s - November 2018
323s - December 2018
144s - March 2019
142s - October 2019
321s & 322s - October 2020

In:
12 319s - December 2016
15 150/1s - December 2017
Remaining 150/1s, 5 156s, 8 158s & 16 170s - December 2018
With the 195s & 331s arriving throughout 2018 & 2019.

Andyh82 · 6 Apr 2016

WatcherZero said:
Though also removal of Pacers and replacement with longer carriaged trains will lead to a greater increase in seats than the vehicle/train count would indicate.

Although new trains and cascaded Turbostars will have disabled access toilets, disabled bays and commuter style door positions, meaning I bet there isn't that much of an increase in seats in a carriage of one of those compared to a shorter length pacer carriage.

Emblematic · 6 Apr 2016

Andyh82 said:
Although new trains and cascaded Turbostars will have disabled access toilets, disabled bays and commuter style door positions, meaning I bet there isn't that much of an increase in seats in a carriage of one of those compared to a shorter length pacer carriage.

Bear in mind that many of the new units are in longer formations, a greater proportion of 3 and 4 car units, which only need one accessible toilet per set. Your short Pacer would also need an accessible toilet (if any at all) to work after 2019.

507021 · 6 Apr 2016

sprinterguy said:
Cheers for that. It's good to see more and more details being made public.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or more logically that eight 150/2 units will be split in two for individual vehicles to be inserted into the centre of sixteen other 150 units, hence a total of 24 x 2-car trains becoming 16 x 3-car.

Of course! Not my day at all, thanks SG.

Mordac · 6 Apr 2016

There's also the hired Class 37s and mark 2s. I wonder what plans they have re: the Cumbrian Coast service. Are they planning on continuing the LHCS operation for the long haul? If not, that would be somewhere that would need more DMUs.

notlob.divad · 7 Apr 2016

Having established what they are going to have and when they are going to get them. Can we make any educated guesses as to what is going where?
I think the 4 car EMUs and the cascaded 319s are pretty well known.
I'm pretty sure I read the 3 car emus where going to electrified West Yorkshire Commuter services.

As for the DMUs I was trying to work out which of the new CAF DMUs would run which service. They said they would run all Northern Connect services apart from the Carlisle to Middlesbrough. It would be sensible if this was run by the 170s. (There are some hints that Northern Connect services may have 1st class, so if a handful of the 170s with 1st class come south, they would appear there). Beyond that I am stumped It would be to their benefit if they could keep classes together, so could all of the 170s end up running Tyne & Tees services?

Using 43074's list as a base I've added my thoughts in. Feel free to contradict me.

DMUs

Class 150/1 - 34 (68 vehicles)

Class 150/2 - 20 (40 vehicles)

Class 150/9 - 16 (48 vehicles, hybrid 3-car units)

Class 155 - 7 (14 vehicles)

Class 156 - 47 (94 vehicles)

Class 158 - 53 (114 vehicles - a mix of 8 3-car and 45 2-car)

Class 170/4 - 16 (39 vehicles, 3-car) Carlisle - Middlesbrough connect service (& Tyne - Tees)?

Class 195/0 - 25 (50 vehicles, 2-car)

Class 195/1 - 30 (90 vehicles, 3-car) All Other DMU Northern Connect Services.

EMUs

Class 319 - 32 (128 vehicles, 4-car) All Liverpool-Manchester-Blackpool Stopping services and Liverpool-Blackpool semi-fast.

Class 331/1 - 12 (48 vehicles, 4-car) Manchester - Blackpool/Windermere connect services and Manchester - Glossop/Hadfield services.

Class 331/0 - 31 (93 vehicles, 3-car) &
Class 333 - 16 (64 vehicles, 4-car) Electrified Lines in Yorkshire.

43074 · 7 Apr 2016

notlob.divad said:
Having established what they are going to have and when they are going to get them. Can we make any educated guesses as to what is going where?
I think the 4 car EMUs and the cascaded 319s are pretty well known.
I'm pretty sure I read the 3 car emus where going to electrified West Yorkshire Commuter services.

As for the DMUs I was trying to work out which of the new CAF DMUs would run which service. They said they would run all Northern Connect services apart from the Carlisle to Middlesbrough. It would be sensible if this was run by the 170s. (There are some hints that Northern Connect services may have 1st class, so if a handful of the 170s with 1st class come south, they would appear there). Beyond that I am stumped It would be to their benefit if they could keep classes together, so could all of the 170s end up running Tyne & Tees services?

Using 43074's list as a base I've added my thoughts in. Feel free to contradict me.

DMUs

Class 150/1 - 34 (68 vehicles)

Class 150/2 - 20 (40 vehicles)

Class 150/9 - 16 (48 vehicles, hybrid 3-car units)

Class 155 - 7 (14 vehicles)

Class 156 - 47 (94 vehicles)

Class 158 - 53 (114 vehicles - a mix of 8 3-car and 45 2-car)

Class 170/4 - 16 (39 vehicles, 3-car) Carlisle - Middlesbrough connect service (& Tyne - Tees)?

Class 195/0 - 25 (50 vehicles, 2-car)

Class 195/1 - 30 (90 vehicles, 3-car) All Other DMU Northern Connect Services.

EMUs

Class 319 - 32 (128 vehicles, 4-car) All Liverpool-Manchester-Blackpool Stopping services and Liverpool-Blackpool semi-fast.

Class 331/1 - 12 (48 vehicles, 4-car) Manchester - Blackpool/Windermere connect services and Manchester - Glossop/Hadfield services.

Class 331/0 - 31 (93 vehicles, 3-car) &
Class 333 - 16 (64 vehicles, 4-car) Electrified Lines in Yorkshire.

Details on Sprinter deployment are vague at the moment although for 150s, 155s and 156s I wouldn't expect too much change.
The North East Connect service will use refurbished 158s.
It's been reported on here and elsewhere that the 170s will be used on Leeds - Southport & Harrogate Line services
I gather the 195s will be used exclusively on diesel 'Connect' services.
The 319s will also see use on electric services between Blackpool, Preston & Manchester when electrification has been completed
The 331/0s will end up replacing 323s on Crewe, Macclesfield & Stoke services
333s will replace current 321/322 workings, their services using the remaining 331/0s in 3 and 6 car formations.

TDK · 7 Apr 2016

TheBigD said:
Would I be right in assuming that the ARN diesel fleet will be...

150/1 = 50
150/2 = 28
155 = 7
156 = 47
158 (2 car) = 45
158 (3 car) = 8
170 (3 car) = 16
195 (2 car) = 25
195 (3 car) = 30

Or have I got my figures wrong???

Are they not getting some 175's as well?

sprinterguy · 7 Apr 2016

TDK said:
Are they not getting some 175's as well?

Not in any plans that have been publically stated.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Andyh82 said:
Although new trains and cascaded Turbostars will have disabled access toilets, disabled bays and commuter style door positions, meaning I bet there isn't that much of an increase in seats in a carriage of one of those compared to a shorter length pacer carriage.

A 3-car class 170, of the varieties moving to Northern, has 198 or 200 seats, while a pair of 142s can seat 212, 228 or 242 depending on type.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Mordac said:
There's also the hired Class 37s and mark 2s. I wonder what plans they have re: the Cumbrian Coast service. Are they planning on continuing the LHCS operation for the long haul? If not, that would be somewhere that would need more DMUs.

The stock used on the loco hauled turns is being refreshed, and if I recall correctly will remain in service until at least December 2017. At which point the commencing inflow of cascaded and new trains mean that the services can once again become unit worked.

ScotTrains · 7 Apr 2016

Couldn't they use turbostars with 1st class on the Barrow and Windermere routes to maintain the 1st class provision?

47802 · 7 Apr 2016

ScotTrains said:
Couldn't they use turbostars with 1st class on the Barrow and Windermere routes to maintain the 1st class provision?

Well they could but they aren't by the looks of it, do we really need first class on northern connect services? in any case I doubt there will be any 1st doesn't seem to have been any mention of it so far.

So other things we get from that Staff Magazine are 155's are definitely staying, so looks like they will be Northern's new worst train when the Railbuses and the Cumbrian Museum pieces have gone.

Refurbishment, obviously the 2020 compliance stuff, plus seat re-trim, panelling repaint, new floor covering, Wi-Fi and some LED lighting, personally I would have liked it to have gone further, does say Connect 158's will be given further enhancements.

As far as all the 158's go I would like to have seen new seating, new tables, Air Conditioning that works, and emergency ventilators that close properly when not in use, and at least USB charging points if not plug sockets.

notlob.divad · 7 Apr 2016

I don't know if Northern Connect will have 1st class, its just that someone said they had introduced a first class ticket on the routes they have taken from TPE.
Given the next required 'Connect' route was Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester which is also currently TPE and has 1st Class available, maybe the same thing will happen.

I don't know why you would introduce a 2 tier pricing structure if you where not going to be keeping it in the long run.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

43074 said:
Details on Sprinter deployment are vague at the moment although for 150s, 155s and 156s I wouldn't expect too much change.
The North East Connect service will use refurbished 158s.
It's been reported on here and elsewhere that the 170s will be used on Leeds - Southport & Harrogate Line services
I gather the 195s will be used exclusively on diesel 'Connect' services.
The 319s will also see use on electric services between Blackpool, Preston & Manchester when electrification has been completed
The 331/0s will end up replacing 323s on Crewe, Macclesfield & Stoke services
333s will replace current 321/322 workings, their services using the remaining 331/0s in 3 and 6 car formations.

My bad, I had read about the 158s somewhere, In that case I will retract the 170s from Tyne-Tees at the same time. I do think there would be a lot of merit in Northern at least attempting to keep the classes together. Tyne-Tees is a little Island of connectivity for them so one class to cover all that would be very useful.

pemma · 7 Apr 2016

43074 said:
The 319s will also see use on electric services between Blackpool, Preston & Manchester when electrification has been completed
The 331/0s will end up replacing 323s on Crewe, Macclesfield & Stoke services
333s will replace current 321/322 workings, their services using the remaining 331/0s in 3 and 6 car formations.

Blackpool-Airport was one of the required Northern Connect routes so 319s can only be used as an interim measure. From what I've heard the 4 car 331s will be used to replace some of the 323s and 3 car 331s in single and doubled up formations will be used on the electrified Northern Connect routes.

notlob.divad · 7 Apr 2016

jcollins said:
Blackpool-Airport was one of the required Northern Connect routes so 319s can only be used as an interim measure. From what I've heard the 4 car 331s will be used to replace some of the 323s and 3 car 331s in single and doubled up formations will be used on the electrified Northern Connect routes.

319s will run the all stops services Blackpool - Manchester Victoria - Somewhere East (so they don't clog up through platforms at Victoria.)

331s will run the Blackpool-Airport expresses. This and Windermere are the Only (to be) Electrified Northern Connect routes. So I think these are the 4 car units as well as the Glossop-Hadfield triangle.

3 car units will run in Yorkshire so they can double up for the peaks and then drop a set during the day.

BestWestern · 7 Apr 2016

Surprised to read 323s are going; they're not life expired surely!?

sprinterguy · 7 Apr 2016

BestWestern said:
Surprised to read 323s are going; they're not life expired surely!?

Popular rumour is that they will be moving to London Midland to bolster the fleet there, as additional units will be required by them (or the following franchisee) for Chase line electrification and further strengthening of Cross-City services.

bnsf734 · 7 Apr 2016

BestWestern said:
Surprised to read 323s are going; they're not life expired surely!?

It has been stated on here and elsewhere that Porterbrook want to concentrate all their 323's into 1 fleet so they will be heading south to join their mates in the West Midlands.

Northern rolling stock plan once new DMU's introduced?

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