Northern rolling stock plan once new DMU's introduced?

[pemma]

Surprised to read 323s are going; they're not life expired surely!?

Popular rumour is that they will be moving to London Midland to bolster the fleet there, as additional units will be required by them (or the following franchisee) for Chase line electrification and further strengthening of Cross-City services.

The actual story is back in the CP4 HLOS it was proposed all the 323s would go to LM (it wasn't proposed LM would get extra 350s though.) Porterbrook liked that idea and were also aware they would have plenty of off-lease 319s, so they tried to get Northern bidders to take on re-engineered 319s to replace 323s and wanted to be able to offer bidders of the next LM franchise all the 323s. They've succeeded with the latter but failed with the former. It's completely down to Porterbrook that the 323s are leaving Northern.
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It has been stated on here and elsewhere that Porterbrook want to concentrate all their 323's into 1 fleet so they will be heading south to join their mates in the West Midlands.

It's not guaranteed yet. There's nothing to stop bidders of the next LM franchise rejecting using 323s altogether if they come up with a viable alternative.

 

[180zephyr]

Pacers are either off for scrap or put on a rural branch line and fade into obscurity, Sprinters will probably be scrap or displacement to smaller, less busy routes and ex-Scotrail Turbostars will be acquired by Northern.

pacers will have to be scrapped or undergo significant refurbishment under the disability discrimination act 2019. noethern should take the opertunity to scrap all pacers for good!

 

[pemma]

319s will run the all stops services Blackpool - Manchester Victoria - Somewhere East (so they don't clog up through platforms at Victoria.)

331s will run the Blackpool-Airport expresses. This and Windermere are the Only (to be) Electrified Northern Connect routes. So I think these are the 4 car units as well as the Glossop-Hadfield triangle.

Arriva have been reported as saying the 4 car units are for Manchester commuter routes. Infrastructure issues at Salford Crescent won't allow 8 car formations to stop there (not even if SDO is used or a unit is locked out of use) so Northern will need to use doubled up 3 car formations on peak time Blackpool-Airport services.

Hazel Grove-Preston will be the other service which can switch and they'll also be additional Piccadilly-Macclesfield stoppers and an additional hourly Hazel Grove-Bolton service.

Stalybridge would be the logical extension for Blackpool-Victoria.

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pacers will have to be scrapped or undergo significant refurbishment under the disability discrimination act 2019. noethern should take the opertunity to scrap all pacers for good!

Northern have to withdraw Pacers. The franchise agreement states the fleet must be Pacer free and only contain properly bogied stock by 1st January 2020. The Scotrail franchise agreement prevents Pacers being transferred there but other franchise agreements don't currently prevent Pacers joining the fleet.

 

[180zephyr]

Northern have to withdraw Pacers. The franchise agreement states the fleet must be Pacer free and only contain properly bogied stock by 1st January 2020. The Scotrail franchise agreement prevents Pacers being transferred there but other franchise agreements don't currently prevent Pacers joining the fleet.

I'm saying that turbostars could be a pacer replacement

 

[BestWestern]

The actual story is back in the CP4 HLOS it was proposed all the 323s would go to LM (it wasn't proposed LM would get extra 350s though.) Porterbrook liked that idea and were also aware they would have plenty of off-lease 319s, so they tried to get Northern bidders to take on re-engineered 319s to replace 323s and wanted to be able to offer bidders of the next LM franchise all the 323s. They've succeeded with the latter but failed with the former. It's completely down to Porterbrook that the 323s are leaving Northern.
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It's not guaranteed yet. There's nothing to stop bidders of the next LM franchise rejecting using 323s altogether if they come up with a viable alternative.

I hadn't read very far back! Ta.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm saying that turbostars could be a pacer replacement

This thread goes into quite a lot of detail through its pages regarding what stock is operating where.

Pacers will likely be replaced by 150s as they serve similar purposes.

 

[pemma]

Pacers will likely be replaced by 150s as they serve similar purposes.

Pacers are used on a wide variety of routes so they'll be replaced by pretty much everything.

We know:
- Pacers on Blackpool North services will be replaced by EMUs.
- Pacers used on Calder Valley will be replaced by new CAF DMUs and 170s
- Some of the Pacers used on Southport services will be replaced by 170s
- Any Pacers still used on the Harrogate Line will be replaced by 170s.
- Pacers used on Sheffield-Leeds and Sheffield-Lincoln services will be replaced by new CAF DMUs.
- Pacers used on Middlesbrough-Newcastle services will be replaced by 158s

That'll leave 150s, 155s, 156s and 158s to directly/indirectly replace Pacers on other routes.

 

[BestWestern]

Is the new CAF diesel kit an existing design? Any images floating around?

 

[notlob.divad]

Arriva have been reported as saying the 4 car units are for Manchester commuter routes. Infrastructure issues at Salford Crescent won't allow 8 car formations to stop there (not even if SDO is used or a unit is locked out of use) so Northern will need to use doubled up 3 car formations on peak time Blackpool-Airport services.

I was unaware of this restriction. Are there any others you know about. Someone said that there has been a project to lengthen key CLC platforms to 6 car so maybe this would indicate all 'connect' services will be 3-car units. doubled to 6 for the peaks.

Hazel Grove-Preston will be the other service which can switch and they'll also be additional Piccadilly-Macclesfield stoppers and an additional hourly Hazel Grove-Bolton service.

I don't see the logic of Hazel grove services going to Bolton.
With Blackpool and Scottish services all giving Bolton a Piccadilly connection, Surely Bolton stopping services will need to serve Victoria. Equally with the Southport - Wigan Walgate Express going through Victoria, the stopping service needs to serve the Castlefield corridor and again require somewhere (unlikely to be the airport) to turn back.
Combine that with O-Road re-development which appears to remove the bay platform they, are going to want somewhere East of Piccadilly that isn't the airport to turn the CLC stoppers back. It is a waste of the wires to Hazel Grove admittedly. But surely Linking Hazel Grove to Liverpool by the CLC and Southport via Wigan is eminently sensible for routing. Even if they have to run as DMUs.

Stalybridge would be the logical extension for Blackpool-Victoria.

Agreed. Very logical place and exactly what I would expect.

 

[pemma]

I was unaware of this restriction. Are there any others you know about.

Salford Crescent is the big one - it would need millions thrown at it to change recently renewed infrastructure to allow 8 car formations. (The recent changes allowed 6 car 185s to stop there with all doors opened.) If you stick to 6 car formations it shouldn't be too difficult or expensive to lengthen the remaining short platforms on Preston/Blackpool services.

I don't see the logic of Hazel grove services going to Bolton. With Blackpool and Scottish services all giving Bolton a Piccadilly connection, Surely Bolton stopping services will need to serve Victoria.

It's more to do with ensuring Stockport has regular direct services to Oxford Rd, Deansgate and Salford Crescent.

 

[notlob.divad]

Combine that with O-Road re-development which appears to remove the bay platform they, are going to want somewhere East of Piccadilly that isn't the airport to turn the CLC stoppers back. It is a waste of the wires to Hazel Grove admittedly. But surely Linking Hazel Grove to Liverpool by the CLC and Southport via Wigan is eminently sensible for routing. Even if they have to run as DMUs.

I suppose the option I overlooked was the Blackburn via Bolton serving the Castlefield corridor and running onto Hazel Grove, given Wigan will have the Connect services to Piccadilly.

It's more to do with ensuring Stockport has regular direct services to Oxford Rd, Deansgate and Salford Crescent.

Would that provide the Stockport-Salford crescent connection?

Either way, DMUs to Hazel Grove seems sensible to me. Given the lack of west facing terminal bays in the Great Manchester Area.

 

[edwin_m]

Popular rumour is that they will be moving to London Midland to bolster the fleet there, as additional units will be required by them (or the following franchisee) for Chase line electrification and further strengthening of Cross-City services.

Including Bromsgrove electrification as well.

These on their own don't look enough to soak up the 323 fleet, unless a lot more doubling up is intended, so I guess we may also see some 350s moving southwards.

 

[sprinterguy]

Including Bromsgrove electrification as well.

I couldn't recall whether the previous release of 323s from Walsall - Wolves services, as a result of the 350/3s arriving, released sufficient units to cover Bromsgrove electrification as well as the increase in frequency to Redditch.

These on their own don't look enough to soak up the 323 fleet, unless a lot more doubling up is intended, so I guess we may also see some 350s moving southwards.

Previous speculative ruminations on the subject on this forum have concluded similar, in removing the 350 diagrams from the Walsall - Wolves workings:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2413320#post2413320

The Chase line only requires 4 units to cover the existing timetable, perhaps 6 if frequency increased to Rugeley. Bromsgrove should essentially only require an extra 2, whilst replacing the 4 350/2s on the Wolves-Walsall turns all adds up to 10-12 extra 323 turns - if the much vaunted transfer from Northern comes about.

Anyway, probably shouldn't take this thread any further off topic.

 

[pemma]

There's to be no new maintenance depot specifically for the new CAF stock, it'll be maintained by Arriva not CAF.

 

[lejog]

319s will run the all stops services Blackpool - Manchester Victoria - Somewhere East (so they don't clog up through platforms at Victoria.)

While it has often been posted on this forum that all trains from the west will pass through Victoria to either Stalybridge or Rochdale, the 2019 TSRs show only 2tph Northern services to Stalybridge and 1tph terminating at Rochdale. If this is correct there will still be plenty of terminators from Wigan/Bolton at Victoria.

 

[swt_passenger]

Including Bromsgrove electrification as well.

These on their own don't look enough to soak up the 323 fleet, unless a lot more doubling up is intended, so I guess we may also see some 350s moving southwards.

DfT's 2012 announcement stated that 3 units (12 cars) of the 10 350/3s provided for both Redditch frequency increase and Bromsgrove electrification. Taken as written, LM should already be able to cover Bromsgove with the existing fleet anyway.

Of the 40 carriages London Midland will receive, 12 will help deliver an internal rolling stock cascade that will provide additional capacity on the Cross City line in Birmingham. The frequency of peak and off-peak services between Birmingham and Redditch will be increased from 2 trains per hour to 3 trains per hour from December 2014. The trains will also enable electric services from Birmingham New Street to be extended to Bromsgrove from May 2015, assuming that the plan to relocate Bromsgrove Station is confirmed and electrification is completed on schedule.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/extra-trains-and-faster-journey-times-will-boost-capacity

 

[Class 170101]

Things have moved on since 2012 and I would be surprised those 350/3s are actually available for an internal cascade to allow services to get to Bromsgrove.

323s maybe from Northern (replaced by 319s) or 350/4s if they become spare in the next couple of years.

In any event has OLE construction even started from Barnt Green to Bromsgrove?

 

[the sniper]

Including Bromsgrove electrification as well.

These on their own don't look enough to soak up the 323 fleet, unless a lot more doubling up is intended, so I guess we may also see some 350s moving southwards.

A lot more doubling of 323s on the Cross City will be needed by 2017/18. More doubling is needed now, as it's not unusual for people to be unable to board 3 car trains in the peak that are crush loaded due to running just a few minutes late. At best they're full with people stood at all the doors, certainly not just in the peaks either.

Where they'd put all these 323s at night is another question though...

In any event has OLE construction even started from Barnt Green to Bromsgrove?

The work on the bridges in Barnt Green seems to be finished now, at least.

 

[Aws87024]

333s will replace current 321/322 workings, their services using the remaining 331/0s in 3 and 6 car formations.

Where are the 321/9's and 322's heading in the future?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Where are the 321/9's and 322's heading in the future?

I think that's one of several unknowns when it comes to the mk3 AC EMU fleet. The obvious home would be existing users of 321s but other than pushing a few 317s closer to Rotherham I'm not sure there's much to be gained.

 

[Philip]

Will any class 195s pass through Bolton regularly? I know there are currently no diesel Connect services booked to go through, but is it possible they may be used for Clitheroe services?

 

[158756]

Will any class 195s pass through Bolton regularly? I know there are currently no diesel Connect services booked to go through, but is it possible they may be used for Clitheroe services?

Doubt it, they look to have ordered barely enough for the Northern Connect services.

 

[clagmonster]

Arriva have been reported as saying the 4 car units are for Manchester commuter routes. Infrastructure issues at Salford Crescent won't allow 8 car formations to stop there (not even if SDO is used or a unit is locked out of use) so Northern will need to use doubled up 3 car formations on peak time Blackpool-Airport services.

Which service will run Preston - Manchester via Wigan. I believe there is a requirement for a fast to go that way to replace the TPE Scottish services when they revert to going via Bolton. Could they end up as 4/8 car 331s on Blackpools and/or Windermeres?
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Will any class 195s pass through Bolton regularly? I know there are currently no diesel Connect services booked to go through, but is it possible they may be used for Clitheroe services?

Potentially on Airport - Barrow services, 8 a day I think, depending on whether they go via Bolton or Wigan.

My understanding was that the 22 185s displaced from TPE were to go to Northern. I would imagine they would end up in the north west to get them back to Ardwick, though there is the LMD at York for light work. I often wonder about them ending up on the Calder Valley.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Doubt it, they look to have ordered barely enough for the Northern Connect services.

Is it your belief that there will be operational problems caused by what you say above?

 

[Aws87024]

I think that's one of several unknowns when it comes to the mk3 AC EMU fleet. The obvious home would be existing users of 321s but other than pushing a few 317s closer to Rotherham I'm not sure there's much to be gained.

That would make sense, thanks.

 

[evotista]

I've just done my own analysis of the numbers, the current fleet is:
Class 142 - 79 (158 vehicles)
Class 144 - 23 (56 vehicles - a mix of 13 2-car and 10 3-car)
Class 150/1 - 30 (60 vehicles)
Class 150/2 - 28 (56 vehicles)
Class 153 - 18 (1-car)
Class 155 - 7 (14-vehicles)
Class 156 - 42 (82 vehicles)
Class 158 - 45 (98 vehicles - a mix of 8 3-car and 37 2-car)
Class 319 - 20 (80 vehicles, 4-car)
Class 321 & 322 - 8 (32 vehicles, 4-car)
Class 323 - 17 (51 vehicles, 3-car)
Class 333 - 16 (64 vehicles, 4-car)
743 vehicles formed as 333 trains

which will become

Class 150/1 - 34 (68 vehicles)
Class 150/2 - 20 (40 vehicles)
Class 150/9 - 16 (48 vehicles, hybrid 3-car units)
Class 155 - 7 (14 vehicles)
Class 156 - 47 (94 vehicles)
Class 158 - 53 (114 vehicles - a mix of 8 3-car and 45 2-car)
Class 170/4 - 16 (39 vehicles, 3-car)
Class 195/0 - 25 (50 vehicles, 2-car)
Class 195/1 - 30 (90 vehicles, 3-car)
Class 319 - 32 (128 vehicles, 4-car)
Class 331 - 43 (141 vehicles, 31 3-car and 12 4-car)
Class 333 - 16 (64 vehicles, 4-car)
Giving 899 vehicles formed as 339 trains, and an overall increase in fleet size of 6 trains or 156 vehicles.

The latest Rail magazine doesn't quite tally with these figures. The quote is Northern currently has 333 units, and that by end of 2020, 145 units will go (102 pacers + 18 x 153s + 17 x323s + 8 x 321/322s) and 162 units will arrive (98 x CAF unit + 23 × 150s + 5 x 156s + 8 x 158s + 16 x 170s + 12 x 319s)

Northern fleet will go from 771 carriages to 885 carriages, is the claim...with a net gain of 17 units.

 

[47802]

The latest Rail magazine doesn't quite tally with these figures. The quote is Northern currently has 333 units, and that by end of 2020, 145 units will go (102 pacers + 18 x 153s + 17 x323s + 8 x 321/322s) and 162 units will arrive (98 x CAF unit + 23 × 150s + 5 x 156s + 8 x 158s + 16 x 170s + 12 x 319s)

Northern fleet will go from 771 carriages to 885 carriages, is the claim...with a net gain of 17 units.

Of course its difficult to quantify number of trains unless you know exactly how many will be reformed into 3 car units, its also difficult to make any sense of it until you know how many services currently formed of 2 units will be worked by 1 unit in the new scheme, either because the new train has equivalent or more capacity or has less capacity but is compensated by an increased frequency of service, or even vice versa in the case of the Aire Valley route.

Has anybody quantified how many northern units will be released by such as TPE semi-fast services?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Don't Northern have the option to permanently use the 153s in formation with the 155s?

 

[quantinghome]

The franchise agreement specifies the capacity requirements for the major northern cities. In addition, I understood from the franchise tender documents that Northern is obliged to keep overcrowding below certain limits.

Can anyone confirm if this is actually part of the franchise agreement? This would have quite significant implications on Northern's rolling stock strategy. If passenger growth continues, they may be obliged under the franchise to increase their fleet size beyond what has already been announced.

 

[pemma]

Has anybody quantified how many northern units will be released by such as TPE semi-fast services?

I think it'll be 6 units.
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Which service will run Preston - Manchester via Wigan. I believe there is a requirement for a fast to go that way to replace the TPE Scottish services when they revert to going via Bolton. Could they end up as 4/8 car 331s on Blackpools and/or Windermeres?

Potentially on Airport - Barrow services, 8 a day I think, depending on whether they go via Bolton or Wigan.

Airport-Barrow and Airport-Windermere services will go via Wigan. Airport-Blackpool and Airport-Scotland services will go via Bolton. Airport-Blackpool services will have to call at Salford Crescent and Bolton except the overnight service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The latest Rail magazine doesn't quite tally with these figures. The quote is Northern currently has 333 units, and that by end of 2020, 145 units will go (102 pacers + 18 x 153s + 17 x323s + 8 x 321/322s) and 162 units will arrive (98 x CAF unit + 23 × 150s + 5 x 156s + 8 x 158s + 16 x 170s + 12 x 319s)

Northern fleet will go from 771 carriages to 885 carriages, is the claim...with a net gain of 17 units.

It's been reported some 15xs will be turned in to 3 car units so 17 extra units might be after Sprinters are reformed.