Saracen_83
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Why did you fail??
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Virgin Trains West Coast Apprentice Train Driver
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Why did you fail??
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Not sure, I answered all the questions with Safety and Customer Service at the forefront of them. Says there is no feedback at this stage
Sly is certainly the wrong word but these style tests do have questions that reword themselves and are often used for cross checking answers. They aren't there to trip you up, they are there to make sure you answer consistently, don't cheat, read the questions etc.
The problem you have is that you will now have anywhere up to a thousand potential passenger on your train, in the middle of nowhere. How, as a Driver, would you resolve that. Sitting there doing nothing would not be correct. You are in a situation where you need clear decisive action and be mindful of passengers.
These questions are not done with any real expectation for you to know rules and regulations and are more designed to see the kind of decision you would make based on available information. Test like this are also weighted in terms of answer. They may not have a specific right or wrong answer but each answer may score higher than the other. It will also be a case of various traits being weighted higher. Are you the kind of person who would break a rule, where a pass is required because A) the person is the MD/ your superior or B) there is pressure from repercussion. Would you break the rules because of what happened to someone else ?
I also told to stick to the rules and be honest but thats just me. If something was to happen to the passengers because you over shot your driving hours surely that would be worse than making them wait for a fresh driver?
What 'rule' have they given you. The question has only stated you are over your driving hours. The rest of the context you are adding in. Often, that is where the error lies. Don't get me wrong, it may be a case where deciding to 'not' move your unit implies that you are rules orientated and resolute. That isn't a bad thing either. As I said, there is often no 'right' or 'wrong' answer.
Half and half here. You are correct in that something may happen and going over your hours would be a contributory factor. What about the passengers ? Being stuck on a signal in the middle of nowhere also poses a danger. There are plenty of incidents where passengers will egress onto the track due to waiting in a packed, sweaty and claustrophobic train.
Also, how is a replacement Driver going to attend the train ? What if there is no Driver available ? We are often in this exact situation and also consider that trains run late and the Driver will run over their booked hours almost daily. Does your reply show that you are inflexible ?
The other issue is that you cannot put across your thought process behind each answer. Where you may be resolute in your application of rules you cannot convey that. Everyone is in that same position.
IF the answers are weighted or trait based then giving consistent answers towards being rules orientated may be in your favor. Taking any few questions in isolation gives a narrow perspective.
greatkingrat
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But that is the point of the questionnaire - to try and distinguish between candidates. If there was one obvious answer that everyone gives it would be a rather pointless exercise.
What’s happening to this section of the website!? All there seems to be these days are people whining and making excuses about why they didn’t get jobs. All I’ve seen is “it’s discrimination” “it’s nepotism” “it’s because I’m a white male” “ it’s because I’m not female” “ it’s because the tests are in this/that format” “ it’s because my sexuality isn’t this or that” “ it’s because I’m this age” “ it’s because the questions are rubbish”
What happened to the days when people could hold their hands up and say “I simply wasn’t good enough this time” or “ oh well I’ll just keep trying”.
Jesse Ventura would have a field day here with all the conspiracy theories that fly around!
Give it a bloody rest.
What happened to the days when people could hold their hands up and say “I simply wasn’t good enough this time” or “ oh well I’ll just keep trying”.
Jesse Ventura would have a field day here with all the conspiracy theories that fly around!
Give it a bloody rest.
tiptoptaff
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It says you're over your driving hours but doesn't say more than that. You could just be over your day, not your legal hours, so moving the train is just overtime. Also, if you have to go over legal hours there are processes in place to minimise fatigue based risk on that turn and the following turn. Saying you'll leave it stranded and wait for someone else isn't necessarily good customer service or that safety orientated.
You failed because you didn't make the standard they want. Simple as that.
I got knocked back for many railway jobs before I got mine and I never blamed the tests, the process or the TOCs. I didn't have what they wanted and that was on me. No one else.
You failed because you didn't make the standard they want. Simple as that.
I got knocked back for many railway jobs before I got mine and I never blamed the tests, the process or the TOCs. I didn't have what they wanted and that was on me. No one else.
Up_Tilt_390
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I tried to apply for this role anyway and would've said that I was willing to relocate should it be necessary. I was bunked off immediately because I didn't meet the criteria. I think I failed primarily because of the fact that I said I couldn't work without public transport (which honestly, now that I think about it, I could always use a bike). For the respective question of over the hours, I said I'd just finish the job fifteen minutes late. Delays happen a lot of the time, and overruns of hours usually occur anyway, so 15 minutes isn't all that bad.
I think what might've been a flop is how I didn't tick that giving the best customer service was somehow one of the three top priorities for a driver (I mean surely safety is more important right? The driver isn't even seen a lot by passengers, and you wouldn't have customers to give a service to if someone crashes the train because they didn't value safety but at least gave good service). Truth be told though, I don't blame the TOC or the process for that. I just don't think I met the standards for the most part. I think I might've been too confrontational and risked being unpopular with coworkers when it come to one question about a coworker badmouthing a manager. They probably want a yes man who will get along with everyone, but I don't know really. Either way I didn't meet it, and it's nobody's fault but my own really.
I think what might've been a flop is how I didn't tick that giving the best customer service was somehow one of the three top priorities for a driver (I mean surely safety is more important right? The driver isn't even seen a lot by passengers, and you wouldn't have customers to give a service to if someone crashes the train because they didn't value safety but at least gave good service). Truth be told though, I don't blame the TOC or the process for that. I just don't think I met the standards for the most part. I think I might've been too confrontational and risked being unpopular with coworkers when it come to one question about a coworker badmouthing a manager. They probably want a yes man who will get along with everyone, but I don't know really. Either way I didn't meet it, and it's nobody's fault but my own really.
Red you are bang on. The amount of threads that have popped up lately is unbelievable and if i'm honest a little disappointed. There are hundred upon hundred of people applying for these jobs on the railway (myself included). You get knocked back. Pick yourself up, look where you went wrong and try again. These jobs come with a weight of responsibility which many of us in the industry know and experience on a daily basis. Every stage of the process is there for a reason.
These questions are tried and tested. They have been around for a long time and will continue to do so. Because they weed out the people who are not suitable.
If people spent as much time to asses their failures as taking to these forums to moan you would probably make more progress.
Agreed.
I have been watching this thread for a while and although i do not wholehartedly believe some of these people are being discriminated against, there must be some merit to their logic. I passed all my psychometrics to enhanced, but failed dmi with a toc and it was a good interview. Last month i passed dmi with a different toc, and i changed nothing and this second dmi i in fact had a not so good interview, and the first one was stronger and i didnt fail it because im not good enough else toc two would not have now given me a contract. Although i am not saying toc one discriminated against me, they certainly did not fail me because i am not good enough, and with the weak feedback and the farce trying to get it did at least have me wondering.
Why is their merit to their logic though? An interview stage is nothing more than a game of opinions, an opinion that is different from toc to toc, from driver manager to driver manager and from HR to HR! The fact that one company liked what they saw/heard and another didn’t is irrelevant! I actually had some divvy who I leant the personal statement that got me my driving job for a later intake, which he then stupidly submitted to the same company and he didn’t even get past the paper sift! If you submitted an application form to Barclays and got the job would you automatically assume that HSBC would give you the job too?
I don’t mean this in a bad way at all so I apologise In advance if it comes across harsh...... but....... who says you gave a good or bad interview?.......you?......... unfortunately you don’t count, as harsh as it sounds!
An interview is about THEM being satisfied with the answers you give not you. And it’s not all about the answer it’s about the detail in which you give it, your body language as you gave it, the way you were dressed as you gave it, the way your personality comes across etc etc etc....... what you see as an acceptable answer to their criteria and what they see are extremely different things.
Remember these people interviewing are very well trained people. And you may also have your line manager interviewing you! He/she has a responsibility to ensure he/she brings in the right person/personality to fit in with their team........ it’s not like it used to be where as long as you used the word “safety” in an interview the job was basically yours no matter who you were.
You’re in an industry where hundreds go for 1 position and no matter how good an interview people think they’ve had there’s always someone out there who gave a better one.
Weak feedback? Feedback is feedback..... they’re certainly not gonna lie to you mate. No they probably didn’t see you as not good enough as that’s not nice..... but there’s nothing to say they didn’t think the person sat next to you was better..... that’s just a mixture of what is probably reality and dog eat dog.
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Spot on mate! And with the positive attitude you’ve got you’ll get your job eventually I’m sure!
I knew my second one was worse because i had more questions than toc one and struggled , where as with toc one i had an example for each straight off, with toc two i had more questions and struggled. With feedback from toc one, they said we have not had it back from interviewing managers yet, we will phone you this afternoon. Three days later , after no call i call again. Still no feedback, we will call you next week. A week later Still have not had feedback and we cant find your paperwork. Four days later they call me and say , we sent you feedback two weeks ago. They say your answers to the questions were not strong enough. I ask Which ones, she says i dont know, we threw the notes away. No didnt make sense to me either.
By the way, when i said some merit to their logic, i didnt mean that they were being discriminated against, i meant that sometimes you might Wonder if you were, wether rightly or wrongly, as much as they might not have been good enough, in the same vein we cannot say for sure they were not discriminated against.
I see that more as proper disorganisation rather than weak feedback.... yes it was a poor showing in terms of their professionalism, but if they say your answers weren’t strong enough then they probably weren’t. That’s not to say they wouldn’t of been good enough elsewhere as I said earlier
The amount of questions asked really has little bearing though as most will tell you that every interview they’ve had have been different lengths with different amounts of questions. If anything the more questions you have the better as that’s more opportunity to show you’re the right candidate.
Yes it may be discrimination but then again it maybe not. We all know that over here it’s innocent until proven otherwise though. I still think the discrimination card is far to easy a card to play hence why you see it every 2 minutes on here!...... I bet if you asked them for evidence to prove it they’d suddenly go quiet.
Your first quote cannot be true. Where you say you changed nothing. Something was different between TOCs by your own admission. No two interviews are the same and only a fool would fail at the first and act and answer the same in the second. Something in you changed that day.
This is something people rarely see or understand. Firstly, standards differ between employers and you may reach the standard with one but not to the other. Amongst TOCs, some are much harder to get into than others. Take, for example, the need to get the enhanced pass and how TOCs enhanced passes differ greatly. Everyone achieves the standard and are 'good enough' but the bar to entry has been raised. DMI/MMI is the same. The bar to entry is higher or simply different.
Secondly, it is not simply a case of being 'good enough'. Employment is not a right. Irrespective of meeting the criteria or passing the DMI/MMI with flying colors, there will always be a case where someone else was better. If there is a single vacancy and five applicants. Four must miss out. Note that isn't failure. It is simply a matter of numbers. Not everyone can get the job. How do you differentiate between candidates ? You need to choose someone more suited to the role and maybe even pick characteristics that better fit your team or something you see in a candidate that makes them stand out.
There is also another perspective you need to look at too. Sometimes, when your sitting on the other side of the desk you get a candidate that doesn't meet the criteria, doesn't meet the standard but is quite affable. They have tried really hard and is ticking all the boxes except the important ones. Sometimes, just sometimes, you take a chance and trust your instinct. My road to Management started because my Boss took a risk on me. I went from a Zero hour Christmas Temp to a 4hr stockroom boy all because of a single character trait.
Sadly the reverse is true. You can be the best of the best but a single criteria missed will cost you. See the big GTR thread for a sad but prime example. Also, you can get a candidate that ticks all the boxes but there is just something about them that puts you off or nags at you. I saw an example of that last year after an internal got interviewed.
These things are amplified to the Nth degree with TOC recruitment. Number are in the extreme and the smallest of small mistakes will cost you an interview or cost you a strike. With the skyrocketing recruitment numbers and more and more people passing just makes it tougher. Assessment tests got changed and TOCs can now add bespoke test for themselves (changing standards between TOCs) DMIs are more structured (removing bias and discrimination) and now we are entering an additional sifting by online assessments (removing more bias and discrimination)
I find the claims of discrimination misplaced. The process has been designed to remove as much bias and discrimination as possible. The assessment is pass/fail and the interviews are subjective but still criteria based and now a computer is just making the decision. Again, a pass/fail situation.
Overspeed110
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Some people might be better than others in an interview situation.
But, also, just because someone is a driver manager or HR or whatever, that does not automatically say they are a good at interviewing people.
The last interview I had for the FOC I now work for, neither of the interviewers could even look me in the eye!
But, also, just because someone is a driver manager or HR or whatever, that does not automatically say they are a good at interviewing people.
The last interview I had for the FOC I now work for, neither of the interviewers could even look me in the eye!
My quote was not untrue, a difference between toc's yes, but me , i got a fresh haircut , groomed shaved etc for both.bi wore the same suit and my examples were the same , except for the extra questions, so where everything was the same i acted and answered the same. Only Where the questions were different, was it different and i struggled, and in another needed prompting, but passed.
As for the passes etc, the second toc, said they only take the highest, and they seen mine and my scores were among the best, i also did additional tests for toc two, so if anything toc two was harder to get into, so by that info, i could not get into the one that took lower scores and less tests, and less interview questions, but got in with the one that took more. Like i said i dont believe it is because of discrimination, just that we cannot dismiss it. Getting in to toc two but not toc one, made no sense to me based on the info i had , and the interviews i had , so it did cross my mind, even if maybe what people are calling positive discrimination. All i am doing is playing devils advocate.
As for a numbers game , well according to someone in recruitment th
As for being a numbers game , recruitment told me they were looking at recruiting 40, at my new toc. The one i did not get into told me at interview they had two hundred more to recruit, so wasnt that.
Don’t take this the wrong way mate but have you thought that the issue may actually be yourself? You’ve openly admitted that you’ve tried 2 different toc’s And you’ve gone in with the same mindset and tactics etc and neither have employed you? And that’s with top assessment marks and massive intakes!?
Surely in that scenario the systems etc aren’t the things that need to be called into question? Maybe it’s your application form, maybe it’s the depth of your answers, maybe it’s your demeanour in a pressurised environment, maybe your answers simply aren’t good enough or quite simply the people you’ve gone up against performed to a higher standard on the day!?
This isn’t a pop just observations.
By the way you’re speaking to someone that applied over seven times from one end of the country to the other falling short at various stages before getting my driving job. Falling short twice for a train driving position given the numbers you’re up against really is a drop in the ocean.
You might want to read my posts properly, and this is not a pop but toc two employed me.
And i repeat, was not saying or agreeing that there was any discrimination, just that it is a possibility, I struggled on the interview for the one i now have a contract for, and did not in the one i failed.
Johncleesefan
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at most, driving over hours would be classed as out of course working and you could agree with the panel to drive at a reduced speed to be relieved at next available.
In terms of letting someone in cab, just say no if they haven’t got a pass. I make my own manager show me hers. With a bold smile on my face when I ask to see it if course
In terms of letting someone in cab, just say no if they haven’t got a pass. I make my own manager show me hers. With a bold smile on my face when I ask to see it if course
But this is my point..... you’ve no idea how the interview went and your comment proves it...... how you feel an interview went and how it actually went are two different things which goes right back to the beginning!
All these people thinking they should have a job and claiming conspiracy because their interviews went really well actually have no clue how they did!
There’s a possibility I walk past aliens every day In the street mate ..... doesn’t mean it happens.
You are missing my point, i did not say i was discriminated against, nor that i agreed other people were , just that i can understand why they might (mistakenly or otherwise) think they were. My point was i had a dmi and did not get a job with a toc, did not think too much to it , but did wonder if, not think or believe i was, merely wonder if any discrimination was present. Then i get another dmi with a toc , but the difference was i did not get a position out of two hundred with toc one , and did with toc two out of forty positions with a toc that required higher psychometric passes, additional tests and a more comprehensive interview. And despite you saying i dont know how it went, er yes to the extent i struggled and floundered with three questions, which did not happen with toc one. Summary could not get job with the toc that had lesser scores, less comprehensive interview and less tests, got job with a toc with a more difficult and comprehensive process. Did i think i was discriminated by toc one .. NO, did i wonder, yes crossed my mind. My point was Just that i can understand why some posters might feel that way, not that i think they are right. However we do not live in a perfect utopia, as we see in Hollywood, sexism, in say a famous broadcast company, gender pay bias. But judging by some posters on here , no driver managers have ever used discrimanatory measures during an interview process, really they are the only group in the world, where at least one isnt discrimanatory .
axlecounter
Member
It’s interesting how many questions are about the relation with your colleagues, and the cases when these put you in some kind of critical position, someone asking for a swap to see her ill father, etc. They’re definitely looking for someone who fits well in their team...
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