Northern issue penalty fares after ticket office left unmanned

Bletchleyite · 25 Sep 2018

jcollins said:
The fact that it makes you touch screen to start isn't user friendly. The old machines at least had train running information on the standby screen, a standby screen staying nothing more than touch screen to start and then giving you the options of buy tickets for today or collect tickets after you've touched it is adding an unnecessary step to the process.

We just don't seem to be able to design good TVM UIs in this country - even the S&B ones threw me off the first time I used one. We need a new national single UI which would do well to be based on the Dutch or Swiss TVMs which are quite intuitive to use.

RailUK Forums

dcbwhaley · 25 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
The fundamental problem here is, as ever, Northern doing things on the cheap to the disadvantage of the passenger, which is their standard practice.

They should, for urban commuter stations like these, be copying Metrolink's pattern. At least two TVMs on the station, ideally more. If platform accesses are separate, a minimum of one on each platform, which should be located immediately adjacent to and obvious to all entering at each platform access point. If there is only one station entrance, at least two which you will pass when you use that entrance to reach any platform.

It's dead simple to get it right. Northern just can't be bothered, and it stinks. Other TOCs manage it perfectly well, as do Metrolink.

On the Buxton line it is very common not to be able to buy a ticket neither at the departure station nor on the train (the guard always travels in the rear of a two coupled train). As a result there can be fifty people or more needing to buy a ticket at Manchester and connections are lost. If that isn't an example of Northern treating passengers with contempt ...

Incidentally bus companies have, for over a century, successfully worked on the principle that tickets are sold on the vehicle.

ForTheLoveOf · 25 Sep 2018

dcbwhaley said:
On the Buxton line it is very common not to be able to buy a ticket neither at the departure station nor on the train (the guard always travels in the rear of a two coupled train). As a result there can be fifty people or more needing to buy a ticket at Manchester and connections are lost. If that isn't an example of Northern treating passengers with contempt ...

Incidentally bus companies have, for over a century, successfully worked on the principle that tickets are sold on the vehicle.

If someone is changing at Manchester, having not had an opportunity to buy a ticket earlier on, then they should not continue to wait in the queue for tickets if that means they will miss their connection. They should wait for whatever length of time is reasonable in the circumstances, and if they have yet to be served by the time they have to leave to catch their connection in good time (bearing in mind doors can close up to 30-40 seconds before departure on long-distance services), they should get on the next train ticketless!

dcbwhaley · 25 Sep 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
If someone is changing at Manchester, having not had an opportunity to buy a ticket earlier on, then they should not continue to wait in the queue for tickets if that means they will miss their connection. They should wait for whatever length of time is reasonable in the circumstances, and if they have yet to be served by the time they have to leave to catch their connection in good time (bearing in mind doors can close up to 30-40 seconds before departure on long-distance services), they should get on the next train ticketless!

But wouldn't that put you in breach of the byelaws. Quite apart from the difficulty of getting of the platform without a ticket.

Bletchleyite · 25 Sep 2018

dcbwhaley said:
On the Buxton line it is very common not to be able to buy a ticket neither at the departure station nor on the train (the guard always travels in the rear of a two coupled train). As a result there can be fifty people or more needing to buy a ticket at Manchester and connections are lost. If that isn't an example of Northern treating passengers with contempt ...

The cause of this is Northern's policy which bans leaving a unit with no staff at all in it, a policy which does not exist on quite a number of other TOCs, is unnecessary and is the cause of the issue.

Incidentally bus companies have, for over a century, successfully worked on the principle that tickets are sold on the vehicle.

If you mean paying the driver I'd debate precisely how successful - but with the proposal for OBS on Merseyrail (which is much less overcrowded than Northern, and likely to be even less so with the new longer trains) I genuinely do wonder if they could actually viably move to all fare collection being on-board other than for passengers boarding at certain busier stations (Liverpool city centre mainly) which would be barriered and have large banks of TVMs. I suspect passengers would actually quite like that, and that fare-dodging would be quite low as a result too. Supertram and Blackpool trams manage it well enough. Add to that a proper contactless implementation (touch in on vehicle as you board with the OBS checking you have and charging a slightly higher cash fare if not) and it'd work quite smoothly, I reckon.

On the other hand, pay before you board can work well enough too, provided enough reliable ticketing facilities are provided. It's this latter point where Northern are abjectly failing. If there is no ticket office, two TVMs should be the bare minimum, one on each platform, and clearly signed (including where the other one is in case the one on that platform has failed).

ForTheLoveOf · 25 Sep 2018

dcbwhaley said:
But wouldn't that put you in breach of the byelaws. Quite apart from the difficulty of getting of the platform without a ticket.

If you are changing platforms at Manchester Piccadilly there is no need to present a ticket - simply use the footbridge at the southeastern end of the platforms. It's more convenient in almost all cases, anyway.

And no, you would not be in breach of any Byelaw by leaving the queue and catching a connection. It is not an opportunity to pay if you have to miss a train for it, having already started your journey (it is different to if you have not yet started your journey). In any case I have strong reasons to believe that Byelaw 18 is unlawful.

davart · 26 Sep 2018

I wonder how feasible it is to implement ticket purchasing into seat back screens?

I think automating on board ticket purchasing could be the way forward.

Smart cards would remove the need for paper tickets.

Getting rid of all platform TVMs and manned ticket offices might offset the cost of implementation.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

davart said:
I wonder how feasible it is to implement ticket purchasing into seat back screens?

At huge cost.

The easiest and best thing to do is to implement a TfL-style contactless system with an Oyster option for those without suitable cards, to be honest. It would cover the vast majority of journeys just fine.

najaB · 26 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
The easiest and best thing to do is to implement a TfL-style contactless system with an Oyster option for those without suitable cards, to be honest...

There's nothing wrong with Northern's system, just the implementation. If every platform that has more than 2TPH had a TVM or PERTIS-style machine and it wasn't possible to reach a platform without passing either a machine or a clear sign saying where the machine(s) can be found, we wouldn't see anything like the number of issues that we do.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

najaB said:
There's nothing wrong with Northern's system, just the implementation. If every platform that has more than 2TPH had a TVM or PERTIS-style machine and it wasn't possible to reach a platform without passing either a machine or a clear sign saying where the machine(s) can be found, we wouldn't see anything like the number of issues that we do.

That is also true.

bearhugger · 26 Sep 2018

I have posted these photos (my own) of the newly installed (last week) TVM at Marton station on the Esk Valley line in Middlesbrough on another thread (Northern Station Improvements & New Ticket Machines) https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-station-improvements-new-ticket-machines.146049/.

Marton Station TVM wide

bearhugger
23 Sep 2018

Marton Station TVM close

bearhugger
23 Sep 2018

Marton Station TVM screen text

bearhugger
23 Sep 2018

The text in the bottom photo, which is in the bottom right of the screen (and quite small, especially for visually impaired people) reads:

This machine is operated by:
Northern, Northern House, 9 Rougier Street, York, YO1 6HZ.

1. This machine sells tickets valid for departure today from this station to all National Rail stations. This machine cannot offer Advance tickets; tickets for travel from other stations; special promotional tickets; Rovers and Rangers, or discounted tickets for two or more people travelling together.

2. Everyone must have a ticket before boarding a train. If this ticket machine is not working, or you are having problems in obtaining your tickets, please visit the ticket office. If the ticket office is closed, or if this is a station without a ticket office, pleae board the train and pay at your earliest opportunity.

3. Please note that other Train Operator's ticket machines may display tickets and fares differently.

4. For assistance, please telephone 0800 200 6060. If you would like to purchase a ticket over the phone, please call 0344 241 3454. Please address any refund claims to:
Northern, Customer Experience Centre, Freepost Northern.

I am fairly IT literate and i have only had a fairly quick play with the machine, but the UI isn't brilliant, although it could have been much worse. There doesn't seem to be any accessibilty features such as enlarging the font, and personally i would get rid of the Popular destinations screen and go straight to searching for my preffered destination.

pemma · 26 Sep 2018

^ Either the brightness on that photo is very high or the brightness on that screen is set to a higher level than on most Northern TVMs given how pinky the background colour looks.

So in short the small print says you must have a ticket before boarding but the TVM may not be able to sell you the ticket you want if you don't want a single/return between two National Rail stations.

Haywain · 26 Sep 2018

jcollins said:
So in short the small print says you must have a ticket before boarding but the TVM may not be able to sell you the ticket you want if you don't want a single/return between two National Rail stations.

Well, yes but it gives a get out clause on that: "or you are having problems in obtaining your tickets, please visit the ticket office. If the ticket office is closed, or if this is a station without a ticket office, please board the train and pay at your earliest opportunity." It must be reasonable to consider the TVM not selling the required ticket as a problem obtaining your ticket.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

Haywain said:
Well, yes but it gives a get out clause on that: "or you are having problems in obtaining your tickets, please visit the ticket office. If the ticket office is closed, or if this is a station without a ticket office, please board the train and pay at your earliest opportunity." It must be reasonable to consider the TVM not selling the required ticket as a problem obtaining your ticket.

Not being able to work out how to use it (or even being unable to find it) is also a problem obtaining your ticket to the "man on the Clapham omnibus".

Haywain · 26 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Not being able to work out how to use it (or even being unable to find it) is also a problem obtaining your ticket to the "man on the Clapham omnibus".

That is another argument entirely.

sheff1 · 26 Sep 2018

davart said:
I think automating on board ticket purchasing could be the way forward.

Has been the case for many years on various train (and tram) systems abroad. "Will not work here" though, apparently :'(

.

sheff1 · 26 Sep 2018

bearhugger said:
I have posted these photos (my own) of the newly installed (last week) TVM at Marton station ....

Good to see the TVM is both (i) at the station/platform entrance and (ii) faces towards people arriving. If that was the standard everywhere there would not be anything like the number of issues currently being highlighted. Unfortunately, neither is the case with the new TVM at Conisbrough, nor with more longstanding TVMs elsewhere.

bearhugger · 26 Sep 2018

sheff1 said:
Good to see the TVM is both (i) at the station/platform entrance and (ii) faces towards people arriving. If that was the standard everywhere there would not be anything like the number of issues currently being highlighted. Unfortunately, neither is the case with the new TVM at Conisbrough, nor with more longstanding TVMs elsewhere.

Yes. The layout of Marton station means the TVM could either go where it is or on the single platform, probably on the other side of the shelter from where you walk on to the platform from the access ramp, and therefore not quite as obvious as where it is now.

sprunt · 27 Sep 2018

Bantamzen said:
They don't need to, it is as you well know in their franchise agreement.

Perhaps a good place for them to start would be to ensure that their ticket offices are open as advertised, ensuring it is easy for people to buy a ticket?

But in the specific case of the topic of this thread, if a sign tells you to buy a ticket from the nearest ticket machine you go and use your initiative and find it.

[stuff cut]

Sorry, but go back and read my posts. I am not an apologist

Pretending it's reasonable to expect passengers to have to use initiative in order to buy a ticket is the definition of apologia.

Oh, and a notable thing about the photo of the closed ticket office in the newspaper story linked: next to the "Ticket office is closed for a while" sign, another sign instructing passengers to PLEASE use the correct change. "F*ck you, customers, make our life easy."

Clip · 27 Sep 2018

sprunt said:
Pretending it's reasonable to expect passengers to have to use initiative in order to buy a ticket is the definition of apologia.

What do people do when they say, go abroad then? Does no one use their initiative then? I am amazed by this.

In all seriousness a little bit of common sense which we all(obviously not in this thread) apply in our lives applies the same wherever we are in a strange town or city both here or abroad

davart · 27 Sep 2018

I would say that on the whole, most people are honest.

Obviously, people who work in revenue protection will have a somewhat different viewpoint.

If someone actually attempts to pay for their journey before exiting the final station, then I would say that is entirely reasonable.

Vending machines should allow you to buy a ticket from anywhere to anywhere. I.e. at your last station enter the start location and pay for the journey.

Perhaps linking this with promise to pay as evidence of where the journey commenced.

I've no problem with anyone having the book thrown at them beyond that point.

Make it easy. Make it simple. Offer tickets everywhere. TVMs, on the trains, prior to the exits. Perhaps sell them in Post Offices and Off Licences. I know many bus tickets can be bought in this fashion.

Bantamzen · 27 Sep 2018

sprunt said:
Perhaps a good place for them to start would be to ensure that their ticket offices are open as advertised, ensuring it is easy for people to buy a ticket?

Funnily enough not so long ago there was quite the fuss over Northern even installing any TVMs at particular stations. However yes in the long run I agree, getting at least one per platform is going to be needed.

sprunt said:
Pretending it's reasonable to expect passengers to have to use initiative in order to buy a ticket is the definition of apologia.

Oh, and a notable thing about the photo of the closed ticket office in the newspaper story linked: next to the "Ticket office is closed for a while" sign, another sign instructing passengers to PLEASE use the correct change. "F*ck you, customers, make our life easy."

I'm sorry but if people can't use a bit on initiative then I fear life will be terribly stressful. Hmmm, need to buy a ticket at a ticket machine, most people would try to look for one, or even worse ask someone else.

Clip · 27 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Not being able to work out how to use it (or even being unable to find it) is also a problem obtaining your ticket to the "man on the Clapham omnibus".

why would people press the seek assistance button then?

Gareth Marston · 27 Sep 2018

As much as some Forum members like to dance on the head of a pin about which angle the tvm is in relation to the midday sun in the 3 rd week after the full moon and the like we have to remember that for some people no matter what you do the message won't get through. Capturing the final 0.5% is often beyond the powers of reasonable expectation.

The people who smoke on the platform 5 yards from the booking office door in front of the no smoking signs whom I have to speak to, the collection of fag butts on the platform every morning when I arrive.....the people who turn up at times when there are no trains "but it said on the Internet". The people who turn up 2 minutes after a train departs and then verbally have a go at you becusse the train left at the time all the timetables say it should...I'm sure if we had TVM's with gods finger pointing from the heavens down to them some people would say they couldn't see it.

island · 27 Sep 2018

davart said:
Just had a thought though: why are the on board tickets so large?

TVMs sell the credit card size, as do most ticket offices.

I would have thought that in an era of recycle and use less, reducing paper usage would be the way.

Is it to discourage from buying on board i.e. you'll need to bring a used kitchen roll tube to stow your ticket in if you buy on board

The printers to print credit card size tickets are an order of magnitude more expensive to buy.

davart · 27 Sep 2018

island said:
The printers to print credit card size tickets are an order of magnitude more expensive to buy.

Interesting. I'm sure on board tickets were credit card sized at one point?

Surprised that there isn't a printer installed on the actual train for wireless printing. Would save carrying one about - they look quite cumbersome!

baz962 · 27 Sep 2018

Gareth Marston said:
As much as some Forum members like to dance on the head of a pin about which angle the tvm is in relation to the midday sun in the 3 rd week after the full moon and the like we have to remember that for some people no matter what you do the message won't get through. Capturing the final 0.5% is often beyond the powers of reasonable expectation.

The people who smoke on the platform 5 yards from the booking office door in front of the no smoking signs whom I have to speak to, the collection of fag butts on the platform every morning when I arrive.....the people who turn up at times when there are no trains "but it said on the Internet". The people who turn up 2 minutes after a train departs and then verbally have a go at you becusse the train left at the time all the timetables say it should...I'm sure if we had TVM's with gods finger pointing from the heavens down to them some people would say they couldn't see it.

Correct , you are completely correct. However the tocs should make it easy to pay , not hard and then throw the book at the people with no excuse.

island · 27 Sep 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
If you are changing platforms at Manchester Piccadilly there is no need to present a ticket - simply use the footbridge at the southeastern end of the platforms. It's more convenient in almost all cases, anyway.

And no, you would not be in breach of any Byelaw by leaving the queue and catching a connection. It is not an opportunity to pay if you have to miss a train for it, having already started your journey (it is different to if you have not yet started your journey). In any case I have strong reasons to believe that Byelaw 18 is unlawful.

Moreover, byelaw 18 (3) speaks of the opportunity to purchase a ticket at the start of your journey. If there were no working ticket facilities at the station where the journey was started, their availability at an interchange station does not make a passenger who fails to use them guilty of a byelaw offence. Conversely, if a passenger chooses not to purchase a ticket from the available facilities at the station he/she started his/her journey, a short connection or a queue for the facilities at an interchange down the line does not excuse him/her.

najaB · 27 Sep 2018

davart said:
Interesting. I'm sure on board tickets were credit card sized at one point?

They were. However most of them were approaching end-of-life and replacing them like for like would have been much more expensive (not to mention that the cardstock is more expensive).

davart said:
Surprised that there isn't a printer installed on the actual train for wireless printing. Would save carrying one about - they look quite cumbersome!

That might work on a two-carriage Pacer, but is unlikely to be convenient on, for example, a 11-carriage Pendolino.

Bletchleyite · 27 Sep 2018

Bantamzen said:
I'm sorry but if people can't use a bit on initiative then I fear life will be terribly stressful. Hmmm, need to buy a ticket at a ticket machine, most people would try to look for one, or even worse ask someone else.

At unstaffed stations, the railway needs to be designed so that there is no need to "ask someone else"(who may of course not provide a reliable answer) in order not to end up accused of a criminal offence. That you think that is acceptable really speaks volumes.

Northern issue penalty fares after ticket office left unmanned

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