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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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507021

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I see... so to satisfy the minority she has come up with a deal that ties us even tighter to the EU whilst abdicating all our power... in short this deal is Brexit it name only and it is a betrayal of the majority who voted to leave

I'd imagine quite a few of those who voted to remain are Tory voters...
 

Revilo

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And also it was Remainers (in the form of Olly Robbins and May) who have been dominating the negotiations that have lead to the deal. Dominic Raab didn't see the deal until almost the last minute before cabinet, cut out of the loop.
 

507021

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And also it was Remainers (in the form of Olly Robbins and May) who have been dominating the negotiations that have lead to the deal. Dominic Raab didn't see the deal until almost the last minute before cabinet, cut out of the loop.

I haven't heard of any leavers stepping up to lead the negotiations.
 

Revilo

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Don't think there are any leavers in the higher echelons of the civil service, their aim is to prevent change and maintain the establishment (see Yes Prime Minister, more a documentary than comedy). It needed a strong PM who believed in Brexit to fight for it (both with the civil service and the EU) rather than seeing the negotiations as an exercise in damage limitation.
 

radamfi

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in name only

If it is "in name only", why does the agreement contain the end of free movement, despite many people assuring us that we would continue to be able to enjoy the right to work, study and retire in the EU after Brexit? That alone means that this deal is as good as hard Brexit.
 

507021

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Don't think there are any leavers in the higher echelons of the civil service, their aim is to prevent change and maintain the establishment (see Yes Prime Minister, more a documentary than comedy). It needed a strong PM who believed in Brexit to fight for it (both with the civil service and the EU) rather than seeing the negotiations as an exercise in damage limitation.

There was a Conservative Party leadership contest just before the negotiations began, and the one candidate I can think of who supported Brexit withdrew.
 

rdeez

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Seems the deal has united both sides in the sense that nobody is terribly keen on it. Trouble is, yet again, the Brexit brigade in the Tory party have precious few alternatives to suggest that aren't purely in the realm of fantasy. You have to admire the EU side for their consistency, because this deal offers pretty much exactly what they've said all along would be the best they could bring to the table. Going back to the negotiating table isn't likely to result in any further significant concessions, because they have no incentive to offer any. That leaves the Brexiters with the "no deal" option, which I suspect the majority would avoid like the plague if it came to it, because the electorate wouldn't quickly forgive the resulting disruption and damage.
 

Esker-pades

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The problem is assuming that people who "belived in Brexit" could have delivered a better deal. Solutions have simply not been offered by those who lead the campaign to leave. They mostly sit in the backbenches throwing mud. When they occasionally do pop up, the solutions don't work. Take the backstop solution for Northern Ireland: that wasn't a solution. The "no deal is better than a bad deal" which Liam Fox rubbished today. Believing in a thing is all well and good, but going and getting that thing done is something entirely different. Leavers in the Conservative Party have only criticised what's going on. They haven't come up with any practical solutions.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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what I find more galling tbh is that David Cameron decided to hold the referendum and made absolutely no contingency plans for if things didn't go the way he wanted... ARROGANCE.... and what did Theresa May do... arrogantly strutted around with her silly soundbites, doing nothing to prepare for a "worst case" scenario whatever that might be... and now we are presented with this load of tosh and there's absolutely nowhere we can go... we can't go for no deal because we haven't prepared for it and it would be chaos... imagine how much better a deal we would've got had the EU seen that we were preparing to leave rather than our Government shutting their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears demanding that the tide doesn't come in.
 

507021

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what I find more galling tbh is that David Cameron decided to hold the referendum and made absolutely no contingency plans for if things didn't go the way he wanted... ARROGANCE.... and what did Theresa May do... arrogantly strutted around with her silly soundbites, doing nothing to prepare for a "worst case" scenario whatever that might be... and now we are presented with this load of tosh and there's absolutely nowhere we can go... we can't go for no deal because we haven't prepared for it and it would be chaos... imagine how much better a deal we would've got had the EU seen that we were preparing to leave rather than our Government shutting their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears demanding that the tide doesn't come in.

The leave campaign had an opportunity to negotiate the deal when Leadsom was still in the Tory Party leadership contest, but she withdrew.

Other than Leadsom and Gove, I don't recall any other leave supporting Tory MPs standing for leadership of the party.

Therefore, I don't understand why those who voted leave are now blaming those who voted remain because they don't like the deal May has negotiated.
 

AM9

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The leave campaign had an opportunity to negotiate the deal when Leadsom was still in the Tory Party leadership contest, but she withdrew.

Other than Leadsom and Gove, I don't recall any other leave supporting Tory MPs standing for leadership of the party.

Therefore, I don't understand why those who voted leave are now blaming those who voted remain because they don't like the deal May has negotiated.
Maybe it's because they acheived a marginal majority by lying to their target electorate, many of whom couldn't be bothered/didn't know how to check on those lies. When informed sources tried warned voters of the risks involved, the leave prpagandists convinced their less discerning followers that it was 'project fear', - their name for lies. Once the lies became consolidated by this move, the leave camp were hostages to their own lies and just couldn't kick the habit. Now the risks are coming to fruition so their only way ahead is to blame somebody else, - so they chose the old enemy the remain camp, - a lie that the leave voters had already swallowed. One day (probably quite soon) all of this will become obvious to all but those who whose judgement has been so damaged by the leave camp. They will be so angry when they eventuall realise that they were so cynically duped over a 3 year period.
Since the referendum, those in the leave camp have been terrified that they would be left to make any decisions on the execution of the result, it's why they hid when a new leader was selected, and it will probably be the reason that they won't bid for the job if they actually do get May to resign.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Maybe it's because they acheived a marginal majority by lying to their target electorate, many of whom couldn't be bothered/didn't know how to check on those lies. When informed sources tried warned voters of the risks involved, the leave prpagandists convinced their less discerning followers that it was 'project fear', - their name for lies. Once the lies became consolidated by this move, the leave camp were hostages to their own lies and just couldn't kick the habit. Now the risks are coming to fruition so their only way ahead is to blame somebody else, - so they chose the old enemy the remain camp, - a lie that the leave voters had already swallowed. One day (probably quite soon) all of this will become obvious to all but those who whose judgement has been so damaged by the leave camp. They will be so angry when they eventuall realise that they were so cynically duped over a 3 year period.
Since the referendum, those in the leave camp have been terrified that they would be left to make any decisions on the execution of the result, it's why they hid when a new leader was selected, and it will probably be the reason that they won't bid for the job if they actually do get May to resign.
it really never ceases to amuse me how smug, superior and sneering remainers are of those of us who voted leave.... just because we came to a different conclusion to you about what would be the best way to vote does not make us any more or less intelligent or informed than you... and tbh at this late stage in the game such snide aspersions about the character of those that disagree with you do nothing but make you look rather the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.

It doesn't matter which way anyone voted, whether leave or remain, nothing can alter the fact that the deal on offer is nothing more than an absolute unconditional surrender to the will of the EU brought about by the absolute incompetence of our present Government which contains MPs of ALL persuasions.

IMHO after the referendum and departure of Cameron then May should've appointed a "National Government" and ensuring that all significant parties had an imput, along with ensuring that the Nationalist parties {SNP, Plaid etc} had a place at the table to argue the particular needs of the individual nations... not forgetting to ensure there was a balance of remainers and leavers in the team.
 

Busaholic

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The leave campaign had an opportunity to negotiate the deal when Leadsom was still in the Tory Party leadership contest, but she withdrew.

Other than Leadsom and Gove, I don't recall any other leave supporting Tory MPs standing for leadership of the party.

Therefore, I don't understand why those who voted leave are now blaming those who voted remain because they don't like the deal May has negotiated.
As In remember it, Fox, Gove and Leadsom were all Leavers who stood, Fox being defeated on the first vote. Stephen Crabb (who?) and May were the two Remainers, Crabb falling at the second hurdle. May handed the Brexit negotiations to Liam Fox, David Davis and Boris Johnson who variously claimed they were going to be the easiest negotiations in history or wonderful trade deals were waiting to be struck once we'd got back national sovereignty or the EU weren't going to be entitled to a penny once we left. Really, she couldn't have chosen three more useless clowns unless she'd asked Donald Trump to intervene. Maybe that was her intention: who knows? I've long suspected that both May and Corbyn were secret Leavers, actually, as were Javid and Fallon amongst the Tories. The Leavers are absolutely responsible for this mess, and they know it!
 

fowler9

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At the end of the day no one can blame remain voters and the EU for the Brexit campaigns complete failure to deliver on what was promised. Brexit had a majority in the referendum so what went wrong. I've had a gutful of it. Davis and Raab both resigned because they weren't happy with what May came up with, what exactly was their job? It sounds like they did naff all. Gove, Johnson and Rees-Mogg did naff all other than sling mud from the sidelines. Leave voters were promised the world by certain politicians who did nothing and are busy blaming the EU and remainers for stuff they (the leave politicians) should have been doing. Rees-Mogg and Johnson, in my opinion were more than happy for it all to fall apart. Possibly power grab and a no deal Brexit.
 

mmh

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countries that protect their national identity and sovereignty with fanaticism... USA, Japan, Canada, Australia, New 2ealand, Norway... any tin pot dictatorships there?

Exactly. But apparently that's impossible. The one thing you really do need to give the EU credit for is it's been remarkably effective in brainwashing people. The simple fact we all talk of it as "the EU" as if it's a fixed entity in its own right should be a hint to all of us that it's not what we might have hoped it would turn out like!
 

bnm

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Erm...Cameron ???
Thought he was for Remain, thought he spent £9m of my money on it.

You gave £9m to Cameron for Remain? Very charitable of you. :p

Do you actually mean that £9m of taxpayers money was spent on the leaflet from HMG stating why the UK should remain in the EU? If so then that cost you about 30p as an individual income tax payer.

The total cost of organising and carrying out the Referendum was £142m. About £4.50 per income tax payer. Now that was an unnecessary waste of taxpayers money by Dopey Dave.

If I ever see him I shall be demanding that £4.50 back off him. <D
 

Senex

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IMHO after the referendum and departure of Cameron then May should've appointed a "National Government" and ensuring that all significant parties had an imput, along with ensuring that the Nationalist parties {SNP, Plaid etc} had a place at the table to argue the particular needs of the individual nations... not forgetting to ensure there was a balance of remainers and leavers in the team.
Here at least I agree with you. The two-party system is hopelessly inadequate for dealing with a situation where their voters, their members, and their MPs are utterly split in their views. A national government, or at the very least some form of Brexit grand committee, might have got us through all this without increasing the bitterness and hardening the views on both sides. But May chose to play it as a totally party political exercise. She may now claim to have negotiated the best deal for the British people etc etc, but in fact she can claim no right to speak on behalf of the British people since she has ignored all interests and potential inputs other than those of the Tory party. It is her Brexit, her mess, and no-one owes her any support at all. She and her party will truly merit the hatred they will have earned.
 

furnessvale

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The evidence is here (assuming we can withdraw its Article 50 submission):
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...ded-to-ditch-brexit-eu-official-idUKKCN1MM1PV
As I understand it, once article 50 has been invoked, it is no longer solely within the gift of the leaving country to withdraw that invocation. It will require the approval of the other countries and/or the EU.

That being the case, IF there was to be a "peoples vote", we would need to know in advance several things.

1. Would Europe allow us to remain.

2. What existing exemptions etc would we lose. It appears the rebate would go, but what about using the Euro, joining Shengen etc.

3. What further demands would be made of us, eg, participation in the further political union etc.

Without that information IN ADVANCE, the voters would be in exactly the same position as with the referendum, not knowing the full result of their actions.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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As I understand it, once article 50 has been invoked, it is no longer solely within the gift of the leaving country to withdraw that invocation. It will require the approval of the other countries and/or the EU.

That being the case, IF there was to be a "peoples vote", we would need to know in advance several things.

1. Would Europe allow us to remain.

2. What existing exemptions etc would we lose. It appears the rebate would go, but what about using the Euro, joining Shengen etc.

3. What further demands would be made of us, eg, participation in the further political union etc.

Without that information IN ADVANCE, the voters would be in exactly the same position as with the referendum, not knowing the full result of their actions.
I think the answer to what demands would be made to change our minds about leaving... it's all in the Brexit deal proposed... the EU will expect us to give up every last derogation and opt out... and you can bet that they will insist that we give up the pound to ensure that we can never dare to try leaving again
 

Howardh

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As I understand it, once article 50 has been invoked, it is no longer solely within the gift of the leaving country to withdraw that invocation. It will require the approval of the other countries and/or the EU.

That being the case, IF there was to be a "peoples vote", we would need to know in advance several things.

1. Would Europe allow us to remain.
2. What existing exemptions etc would we lose. It appears the rebate would go, but what about using the Euro, joining Shengen etc.
3. What further demands would be made of us, eg, participation in the further political union etc.

Without that information IN ADVANCE, the voters would be in exactly the same position as with the referendum, not knowing the full result of their actions.
According to Tusk - well, reported on newsnight anyway - A50 won't be extended UNLESS it's for a referendum, so the default situation must be if we're allowed another say then we will simply stay in the EU; as that say would be during the extention.
We wouldn't be joining the Euro or Schengen.
We would continue to have our veto on "further demands" whatever that means.
As for the final point, I think we know for certain that if we left with no-deal (and had said referendum) what the situation would be like afterwards - long queues at ports, visas, possible shortages, uncertainty, tariffs, inflation etc. Also unwanted EU immigrants crossing the UK border unchallenged.
If we finally do end up leaving (releaving as I have seen it written!) but have a deal, most of the above should be avoided. Except the unwanted EU's arriving in the UK via Ireland unchallenged.
That's called keeping control of our borders, I believe.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Except the unwanted EU's arriving in the UK via Ireland unchallenged.
That's called keeping control of our borders, I believe.
actually I've never seen why the Irish border has been seen to be a problem.... to get on a plane even for domestic flights you have to provide photo id such as passport or driver's licence... I'm assuming it's the same for ferries... now considering that Ireland/ NI are only linked to the UK mainland by ferries and planes I fail to see how it was seen as so impossible to have an open border with Ireland and still have control of our borders.... though perhaps NI would be a bit put out at being swamped with all the "illegal immigrants" they would end up with...
 

furnessvale

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According to Tusk - well, reported on newsnight anyway - A50 won't be extended UNLESS it's for a referendum, so the default situation must be if we're allowed another say then we will simply stay in the EU; as that say would be during the extention.
We wouldn't be joining the Euro or Schengen.
We would continue to have our veto on "further demands" whatever that means.

As for the final point, I think we know for certain that if we left with no-deal (and had said referendum) what the situation would be like afterwards - long queues at ports, visas, possible shortages, uncertainty, tariffs, inflation etc. Also unwanted EU immigrants crossing the UK border unchallenged.
If we finally do end up leaving (releaving as I have seen it written!) but have a deal, most of the above should be avoided. Except the unwanted EU's arriving in the UK via Ireland unchallenged.
That's called keeping control of our borders, I believe.
Glad to know you are privvy to the inner workings of the EU.

Given that the rebate has already gone, I'll take the rest with a pinch of salt.
 

Howardh

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Glad to know you are privvy to the inner workings of the EU.

Given that the rebate has already gone, I'll take the rest with a pinch of salt.
If we remained within the A50 extention, we would be on the same terms as before inc. the rebate (although the amount of rebate would be discussed in real time as we go along...as before.)
Britain could still cancel Brexit and stay in the European Union on the same terms it currently enjoys
- Nathalie Loiseau, the French European affairs minister.
We wouldn't have left, why should anything change?
 

Howardh

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actually I've never seen why the Irish border has been seen to be a problem.... to get on a plane even for domestic flights you have to provide photo id such as passport or driver's licence... I'm assuming it's the same for ferries... now considering that Ireland/ NI are only linked to the UK mainland by ferries and planes I fail to see how it was seen as so impossible to have an open border with Ireland and still have control of our borders.... though perhaps NI would be a bit put out at being swamped with all the "illegal immigrants" they would end up with...
All ferry companies do is check your ID matches that on the ticket. That ID, as alluded to above, may be a passport, a driver's licence, Blue Badge or - as my non-passport/driver's licence holding mate proved when we went to Belfast....his NI card! (was a few years ago, mind). Even if they did check passports (what, passports to move around our own country??) they aren't immigration officials so couldn't check on validity (ie if someone had been previously banned form entry).
So it would be very simple for someone who is legally entitled to be in Ireland (ie an EU citizen) with just that ID card to bus over the border into the UK and catch a ferry to the mainland using either that card, or drivers licence (etc) if asked at all.
Would people on a coach be subject to ID inspection - or just the ferry-ticket holding driver on the NI-Scotland route?
 

AM9

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it really never ceases to amuse me how smug, superior and sneering remainers are of those of us who voted leave.... just because we came to a different conclusion to you about what would be the best way to vote does not make us any more or less intelligent or informed than you... and tbh at this late stage in the game such snide aspersions about the character of those that disagree with you do nothing but make you look rather the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.
Although I didn't use your term 'less intellingent' there were individuals across the spectrum of voters who were suceptible to deception, including those who supported remain on the day. As with popoulist campaigns across the world in recent years, they have all sought to mobilise emotions of being left out or ignored for political gain. Just like Trump in the US, the leave campaign targeted many of the politically passive voters with unsubstantiated claims and promises, most of which are now being revealed as blatantly untrue. Of course there was an opportunity to do a similar thing on the remain campaign, except that life within the EU had already been experienced for decades so apart from rebutting some of the misinformation that the leave campaign was stating, not much could be said.
Intelligence has nothing to do with how people voted, after all leading lights like Mogg is splendidly intelligent, (thanks to his privileged education), but his choice of leaving is as a speculator with cash to play with and he is pushing for the most chaotic exit possible to maximise his chances of cashing in of on the situation. There is however a vulnerable section of the electorate who were duped, maybe less than 5% of the total that would numerically cover the slim majority the leavers needed to claim a win.

It doesn't matter which way anyone voted, whether leave or remain, nothing can alter the fact that the deal on offer is nothing more than an absolute unconditional surrender to the will of the EU brought about by the absolute incompetence of our present Government which contains MPs of ALL persuasions.
The deal is there, take it or do something else, i.e:
1) walk away, WTO - almost certain economic disaster
2) have a general election - Conservatives (and much of the electorate) too scared
3) go back and demand a better deal - no chance, the current deal is basically what the EU was saying before the referendum (but the leave campaign poo-pooed it)
4) ask the public what they want now - yes, it's the democratic way ahead if a government has painted itself into a corner
Probably 4) is the way ahead, after all a better informed electorate will decide what risk they will accept.

IMHO after the referendum and departure of Cameron then May should've appointed a "National Government" and ensuring that all significant parties had an imput, along with ensuring that the Nationalist parties {SNP, Plaid etc} had a place at the table to argue the particular needs of the individual nations... not forgetting to ensure there was a balance of remainers and leavers in the team.
a) there would be a total impasse of such a situation. It isn't anything like a 'National Government' in wartime because there is no unifying enemy. About half of them would want to remain anyway
b) the EU's position would be exactly the same, and the same as they indicated before the referendum) and anybody except the most naïve observer recognises that there are 27 other nations that have proven to be fully behind the EU negotiators in reminding the UK of that.
Still if you think that's another blame channel then keep repeating it. Meanwhile I'll just wait for the politicians accede to what is now a wish for 75% of the electorate, i.e. a referendum based on the real situation rather than lies (disguised as aspirations).
 
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