GN Class 717

jon0844 · 13 Jan 2019

Fred26 said:
They're checking the lights, not the blinds.

They need to check the lights as you could have red at both ends (or white) because they're not linked. I think that's even possible on the 700s (and therefore 717s) and drivers still get out and check those too.

The blinds used to be set to a third high-level red, but I assume that requirement is no longer there given the LED lights. However many older drivers still change the blind to red... even if, ironically, on many 313s of late the illumination has died so you can't see anything anyway. Yet another thing going wrong that probably won't be fixed in a hurry.

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edb · 13 Jan 2019

Are these 717s likely to live up to earlier hype about faster journeys? Hertford loop peak timetable was a nasty shock in may with total loss of semi fast services and some added parding, adding 8 or 9 minutes to the trip.

jellybaby · 13 Jan 2019

Fred26 said:
They're checking the lights, not the blinds.

Interesting, thanks. I assume modern trains do that themselves like many cars and I presume signals?

Failed Unit · 13 Jan 2019

edb said:
Are these 717s likely to live up to earlier hype about faster journeys? Hertford loop peak timetable was a nasty shock in may with total loss of semi fast services and some added parding, adding 8 or 9 minutes to the trip.

Indirectly. The stopping patterns are not as per consultation.

In the peak 2 more Gordon hill - Moorgate services will be introduced. They don’t have enough 313s for these.

This will take the WGC - Moorgate back to a standard pattern and take Hadley wood, oakliegh park and new Southgate back to the pre-May service levels

Service in the loop will be adjusted. I think all stations to return to pre-May frequencies. Progress?

edb · 13 Jan 2019

A few trains per peak used to skip bayford, crews hill, Grange park, hornsey etc to save a few mins. Really makes a difference for the outer commuter. In fact not sure why they can't do this most of the time (with every train skipping some but different stops) Performance targets around trains per hour I guess.

They also padded out the timetable for existing pattern so even the all stations is slower.

Anyway.

I'm sure part of the early GTR PR said that the 717s were so amazing (better acceleration and brakes?) that journey times would be reduced.

Failed Unit · 13 Jan 2019

edb said:
A few trains per peak used to skip bayford, crews hill, Grange park, hornsey etc to save a few mins. Really makes a difference for the outer commuter. In fact not sure why they can't do this most of the time (with every train skipping some but different stops) Performance targets around trains per hour I guess.

They also padded out the timetable for existing pattern so even the all stations is slower.

Anyway.

I'm sure part of the early GTR PR said that the 717s were so amazing (better acceleration and brakes?) that journey times would be reduced.

History tells us never believe anything GTR says.

But I think a variable stopping pattern was the plan on the consultation timetables.

Shame I didn’t save them.

trc666 · 14 Jan 2019

RE Hertford Loop in the peak, some trains still skip Harringay, Hornsey, Bowes Park and Grange Park along with Crews Hill and Bayford, the latter two also get skipped off peak generally getting a half hourly service. Everything calls at Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill and Enfield Chase except for one up train in the PM peak which runs fast Gordon Hill to Alexandra Palace. As far as I am aware nothing skips Gordon Hill or Cuffley.

Metal_gee_man · 14 Jan 2019

I have to ask how long does it take to test these trains, there are several sets just sat laid up at Dollands Moor sidings at Folkestone that should be in service (at least you'd assume)

BowesRanger · 14 Jan 2019

Metal_gee_man said:
I have to ask how long does it take to test these trains, there are several sets just sat laid up at Dollands Moor sidings at Folkestone that should be in service (at least you'd assume)

As far as I understand it (from this thread) the issue is with having enough trained drivers rather than trains now

jon0844 · 14 Jan 2019

BowesRanger said:
As far as I understand it (from this thread) the issue is with having enough trained drivers rather than trains now

I think there are enough drivers to run a few diagrams without problems. Now WGC and Hitchin drivers have (fully/partially?) merged, there will be a lot of 700 signing drivers that just need a short conversion course. I assume quite a few now have*.

It's more a case of a few things needing to be signed off, unions to be happy etc. Once that's done then it can happen pretty much straight away.

There was a hope for trains to run from next Monday. It may have slipped another week. GTR is perhaps wisely not announcing a date anywhere because it would be suicide. Why risk a backlash if it slips one more week?

* The only real risk is a train planning error, but that should be easily preventable.

SteveOfTheStow · 14 Jan 2019

I don't know if there's a need to get the 717s into service by May, but one would hope that it would be a target to enable the 717 performance to be taken advantage of with respect to stopping patterns from next WTT. On the back of a fag packet I worked out there's 16 weeks from yesterday until the next timetable comes in, and there are 25 717s. That means releasing 2 a week into service on average with a bit of a buffer spare, so a week here or there to start wouldn't matter too much. If they've all done their mileage accumulation, as was stated elsewhere in the thread, then from a layman's perspective that sounds possible.

jon0844 · 14 Jan 2019

It won't be as long as May. I expect next week or the week after we'll see a couple UNLESS there's a bigger issue (say one of the platforms hasn't been signed off somewhere).

I've read that GTR now has access to the bulk of the fleet, so they could introduce 1, 2, 5 or maybe 10 if they wanted. There are only a handful left to be officially leased and/or delivered.

I would be very surprised if they weren't ALL operational by May, and hopefully sooner than that. There aren't that many trains after all, it's just a driver training issue. Obviously I have no clue how that may be scheduled and managed, but it must be planned for. It's not as if nobody knew they were coming, and they were meant to be in service in December.

Class315 · 14 Jan 2019

jon0844 said:
It won't be as long as May. I expect next week or the week after we'll see a couple UNLESS there's a bigger issue (say one of the platforms hasn't been signed off somewhere).

I've read that GTR now has access to the bulk of the fleet, so they could introduce 1, 2, 5 or maybe 10 if they wanted. There are only a handful left to be officially leased and/or delivered.

I would be very surprised if they weren't ALL operational by May, and hopefully sooner than that. There aren't that many trains after all, it's just a driver training issue. Obviously I have no clue how that may be scheduled and managed, but it must be planned for. It's not as if nobody knew they were coming, and they were meant to be in service in December.

Management aspire to have some 717's on/by the 21/01; Some stations are still yet to be signed off as a result of some lighting issues which are awaiting parts. A hybrid method of dispatch has been proposed on the NCL, this could be signed off this week.

Just to clarify, Some former Hitchin drivers where displaced to WGC as the former has been downsized following the December timetable changes.

jon0844 · 14 Jan 2019

Class315 said:
Management aspire to have some 717's on/by the 21/01; Some stations are still yet to be signed off as a result of some lighting issues which are awaiting parts. A hybrid method of dispatch has been proposed on the NCL, this could be signed off this week.

Just to clarify, Some former Hitchin drivers where displaced to WGC as the former has been downsized following the December timetable changes.

That pretty much matches what I was told, although I didn't know about the dispatch issue 'in the hole'.

Felix A · 14 Jan 2019

SteveOfTheStow said:
I don't know if there's a need to get the 717s into service by May, but one would hope that it would be a target to enable the 717 performance to be taken advantage of with respect to stopping patterns from next WTT. On the back of a fag packet I worked out there's 16 weeks from yesterday until the next timetable comes in, and there are 25 717s. That means releasing 2 a week into service on average with a bit of a buffer spare, so a week here or there to start wouldn't matter too much. If they've all done their mileage accumulation, as was stated elsewhere in the thread, then from a layman's perspective that sounds possible.

As an inner commuter on the 313s I feel like the 717s, although they may not be more reliable as the 313s, will help ease ou the effects of the distruption that will occour no matter what unit is working the route. This is due to the higher overall capacity and as any commuter on these lines would know, when there is any distruption, trains become extremely difficult to get on in the Alexandra Palace, Harringay, Hornsey area.

jon0844 · 14 Jan 2019

This morning would demonstrate the problems with 313s with so many people trying to get from Stevenage to London via the Hertford Loop.

Obviously not even a 6 car 717 could cope with the extra demand, but they would have left a lot fewer people on the platform. Stations down the line would still be screwed, but this was an exceptional incident (for those reading this in the future; the ECML was split between WGC and Alexandra Palace in the Monday morning peak due to a fatality at Potters Bar).

Arkady · 14 Jan 2019

In operation today according to Twitter.

https://twitter.com/robbieking185/status/1084738881579335680

Aictos · 14 Jan 2019

jon0844 said:
This morning would demonstrate the problems with 313s with so many people trying to get from Stevenage to London via the Hertford Loop.

Obviously not even a 6 car 717 could cope with the extra demand, but they would have left a lot fewer people on the platform. Stations down the line would still be screwed, but this was an exceptional incident (for those reading this in the future; the ECML was split between WGC and Alexandra Palace in the Monday morning peak due to a fatality at Potters Bar).

I had heard of a issue affecting GN services this morning and guessed it was Potters Bar again.

The thing with the Desiro City platform as you have stated is compared with other trains, they would have swallowed up a lot more passengers then previous trains which is better then it has been.

I just hope that with the better acceleration and braking that these units have then we can see better journey times maybe....

Class315 · 14 Jan 2019

jon0844 said:
That pretty much matches what I was told, although I didn't know about the dispatch issue 'in the hole'.

I've heard various rumours about the dispatch 'in the hole', I believe all the station staff at Old Street, Essex Road & Highbury & Islington have dispatch competency retained. I'm sure that it'll be discussed at the branch meeting tonight.

Arkady said:
In operation today according to Twitter.

https://twitter.com/robbieking185/status/1084738881579335680

I suspect that was one of the many 700's diverted via the loop, as a result of the fatality at Potters Bar.

SteveOfTheStow · 14 Jan 2019

Class315 said:
I suspect that was one of the many 700's diverted via the loop, as a result of the fatality at Potters Bar.

No reason for a 700 to stop at Palmers Green though even on diversion, and I'm not sure that station is set up to take an 8 car unit at present. Whilst I'd like to see more evidence than this pic with no distinguishing features, I'd still believe it's a 717 over a 700.

Retracted ^^

Edit: The pic doesn't show the doors open; in fact it could be a train speeding through as everyone is standing away - so perhaps the picture is sadly sneaky clickbait.

Class315 · 14 Jan 2019

SteveOfTheStow said:
No reason for a 700 to stop at Palmers Green though even on diversion, and I'm not sure that station is set up to take an 8 car unit at present. Whilst I'd like to see more evidence than this pic with no distinguishing features, I'd still believe it's a 717 over a 700.

Retracted ^^

Edit: The pic doesn't show the doors open; in fact it could be a train speeding through as everyone is standing away - so perhaps the picture is sadly sneaky clickbait.

700's are not permitted to stop at any stations on the Hertford Loop.

Arkady · 14 Jan 2019

Yeah, I checked with the tweeter and he says he now thinks it was a 700.

jon0844 · 14 Jan 2019

And the Tweet seems to have gone!

clockend · 16 Jan 2019

Somewhat confusing 717 stop board at Finsbury Park platform 8. 717 included with most others but repeated further up too.

Fred26 · 16 Jan 2019

Nearer is for platform 7. It is still confusing though.

Aictos · 16 Jan 2019

Fred26 said:
Nearer is for platform 7. It is still confusing though.

Surely it would have been better to just use the existing 6 car stop or in other words the Class 717 stop marker in the foreground so it applies to both platforms as they've done at Hertford* Welwyn Garden City* Stevenage* etc....

*With the 3/4/6/8/12 marker signs that is

Fred26 · 16 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
Surely it would have been better to just use the existing 6 car stop or in other words the Class 717 stop marker in the foreground so it applies to both platforms as they've done at Hertford* Welwyn Garden City* Stevenage* etc....

*With the 3/4/6/8/12 marker signs that is

I agree. Some stations look a mess with the amount of stop boards on display.

387star · 16 Jan 2019

Fred26 said:
I agree. Some stations look a mess with the amount of stop boards on display.

Pancras low level T boards in abundance

Ladder23 · 16 Jan 2019

when are these running passenger services to and from moorgate then?

is it still testing only right now?

jon0844 · 16 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
Surely it would have been better to just use the existing 6 car stop or in other words the Class 717 stop marker in the foreground so it applies to both platforms as they've done at Hertford* Welwyn Garden City* Stevenage* etc....

*With the 3/4/6/8/12 marker signs that is

WGC has had one 717 market relocated (it's now attached to a shelter) so there are now two separate boards in the down direction from platform 3&4, and two on platform 1&2 in the up.

It is all very messy.

GN Class 717

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