GN Class 717

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by choochoochoo, 1 May 2017.

  1. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    It probably varies. Some of the testing will be class based and involve trains coming in on a platform and changing ends, then returning to do another, then perhaps going into a sidings and back out.. presumably to check every signal and stop board and look for other possible hazards.

    Unit testing is to rack up mileage before a train can enter service but given there are already more trains ready than needed for the initial diagrams, I assume that's not having any impact whatsoever.
     
  2. gm671

    gm671 Member

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    Deleted
     
    Last edited: 20 Feb 2019
  3. Bayum

    Bayum Established Member

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    Why the weird livery?

    Whenever I see it in pictures, it’s always difficult to look at it in colour because of the blacks and greys
     
  4. higthomas

    higthomas Member

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    Ok, thanks for that. An area I didn't know so much about!
     
  5. A0wen

    A0wen Established Member

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    For the first two years of their life the 313s were among the most unreliable EMUs on the BR network - to the extent there's a whole section in one book on failings on BR (can't remember the exact title and am at work at present).

    It took several years to iron out their glitches before they became the dependable, reliable units they now are.

    The 700s are still fairly new out the box - given the reliability the 350s have built up, I'm happy to give the 700s the benefit of the doubt for now.
     
  6. BRX

    BRX Established Member

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    717024 being delivered up to Ferme Park today

     
  7. Aictos

    Aictos On Moderation

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    Indeed some people forget this as they wear their rose tinted glasses...

    Thanks for bringing some knowledge and common sense to the topic especially about the Class 313 introduction.
     
  8. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I accept the figures for the 700s but so far I've never been on one that has had a fault. I've been on a unit with some doors locked out and heard of other door related issues, or unintended brake applications, but never experienced it.

    As such, for me the 700s are dead reliable. If there's a train and a driver, I'll be fine!
     
  9. Aictos

    Aictos On Moderation

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    Indeed, I was surprised by the fact that the doors on my Class 700 opened and closed automatically at St Pancras much like LUL stock remembering I'm more used to Class 319s, Class 377/5s and Class 387s where the passenger presses the door open or close button once the doors have been released by the driver.

    The only thing with the Class 700 today was the fact that the next station announcements didn't work apart from when we were about to arrive at St Pancras in fact the only announcement that was played was the bog standard security message about reporting stuff!

    I'm not yet a frequent user of the Class 700s but they are my preferred option if I need to travel between London and Bedford for example as to the Class 717s I accept they will have some issues when they come into service but nothing like the end of days scenario that some think will happen.
     
  10. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    I think 700s are starting to settle down now, just the PIS that's still very much a work in progress.
     
  11. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Some seem to deliberately not understand the point I am making. I know the 313 introduction was poor. That is not the issue.

    People seem to think that the 717 introduction will immediately stop all trains breaking down in great northern. When you consider the reliability of the 313s today (1976 is not relevant) things will get worse if you use the 700 figures.

    Yes the 717s will improve. I have never said otherwise. But not as soon as they are introduced. Those that think a train straight out the box will before better than what it replaces is indeed looking at life with rose tinted specs. Never happened on any train from any manufacturer. Even simple things like crew familiarity will impact the service. It is just life that new stuff takes time to bed in. 2 years and the 700s are still struggling.

    The 717s will have “failures” because the train does something the crew doesn’t expect. May not be a true failure but it will cause the service to collapse (because of the short turnaround times). The 313s will not do much the crew hasn’t seen happen before and know what to do next. For this reason along with other issues on the bathtub I expect the service to decline. Have the IEPs improved great western yet?

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the physical train of the 700. Yes the interior is poorly specified but that makes no difference to performance. I am sure Siemans is disappointed how slowly the reliability is creaping up. But then I can’t remember how long it took the 450s to beat the 1st gen EMUs they replaced.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2019
  12. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    I have never had a 313 fail while I am on it either. So by that measure the 313s are perfect and I use them every day. However all my issues with delays on great northern are either failed 387s or no drivers in 700s (so not train issues). The published figures suggest the 387s are the most reliable of the 3 so maybe I am unlucky on the 387s.
     
  13. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    But 313s have been terrible in the last month or two. I am sure it will totally skew the figures. They're just falling apart and being patched up to keep them going. If they continue much longer, especially if the weather gets worse, I'm sure it won't end up being long until trains are short-formed to keep the timetable going.

    3 car services will not be popular, although it might make people like the 717s that bit more.

    Maybe there will be issues with the 717s. As you say, drivers may have issues with the doors (as 700 drivers do when newly trained and having to call for help, which can delay or cancel trains that aren't technically faulty). Maybe platform staff will mess up terminations. However, given the choice the 717s seem like the lesser of two evils. 717 reliability will get better. The 313s are only going to decline.
     
  14. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    That is unfortunately that viscous circle. The 313s are possibly getting worse (not personally seen any evidence of this) because they are going off lease and not having money spent on them. Not because they are bad trains. But lowering the bar of the 313s. to make the introduction of the 717s look good is very GTR.

    Don’t get me wrong the 717s will be an improvement on the 313s in many ways.

    But the 313s with TLC we’re doing a very credible MTIN. Just because this is falling as maintenance scheduled have dropped doesn’t make the 717s better. The 313s won’t last forever. But that doesn’t alter the fact the 717s won’t offer the 100% reliablity some poster seem to think. I could say at least the 313s have nice seats. But that is no longer true. Had plenty with no working heating recently. Rain water coming into the coach. All is not rosy with the 313s. But from my personal experience they get me from A-B everyday. Not convinced judging by the 700s the 717s will. But absolutely the 313s can’t and won’t go on forever. Just hope the 717s get introduced slowly so if they fail they can be substituted with 313s
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2019
  15. Aictos

    Aictos On Moderation

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    I am aware that trains never work straight out of the box regardless of who the operator is, my point was simply pointing out that the 313s had issues when they were first introduced and that it took a while to get them to be reliable and the same applies to the 717s they will take a while but will just as reliable if not better then the 313s they're replacing.
     
  16. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Have i ever said anything different to this point? Hence my view things will get worse before they get better and the 717s won’t give the 100% reliable service some seem to think.

    Even if the 313 reliability is declining rapidly the 717s (well 700s as it is recorded) still have not reached the levels of the reliability achieved by the 313s when the survey was written so we will not be seeing the same quality of service as we did 12 months ago. But considering how bad GN is at the moment you are right most will not notice and look back to 2017 with rose tinted specs when we could rely on GN to get us to work.

    The 717s if they were in service tomorrow as I said earlier many things would improve. However I suspect this time next year the MTIN of the remaining 313s will be better than the 717s. GTR still have some confidence in the 313 as we don’t have a shortage of 3rd stock to replace them. But I think great northern will be better without them. In May 2020. (But will be happy if you post in May 2019 that GNs is more reliable as a result of full deployment of the 717s with figures to back it up) I would welcome to be proved wrong. It is just the 700s don’t inspire confidence at the moment.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2019
  17. Bungle965

    Bungle965 Established Member

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    Unfortunately the video does not appear to be playable for me.
    Sam
     
  18. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    One benefit of the 717s should be that there are more of them (taking into account that 1x717 = 2x313 of course). The bar has been stretched with the 313 fleet for many years now, especially the most recent few timetables with more off-peak and weekend working, Moorgate open later, and a shift towards many more 6-car services across the board. Stealing a few of the Southern 313s wouldn’t have gone amiss!
     
  19. Chris217

    Chris217 Member

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    I love the 313s. But have you seen the state they're in?

    As said previously, it's probably a ploy by Great Northern to show off their shiny brand new 717s when it comes to the big public announcement of their introduction.

    Compared to the old units they couldn't be bothered to tidy up!

    How many 717s have been delivered?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 11 Jan 2019
  20. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    They're too different at this point.
     
  21. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    The problem with the 313s isn't that maintenance is necessarily poor, rather they're now being kept going without any chance of 'new' parts being fashioned for repairs. It's going to be a patch up job, which can only last so long.

    This would then result in reliability falling off a cliff.
     
  22. simple simon

    simple simon Member

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    As I understand it, to speed the service there are several stations in the Central London *core area of the Thamelink service where the doors will open automatically on arrival. It saves a few seconds and when you are trying to run an intensive service so those few seconds soon add up.

    *In the area where the trains will run automatically.

    I have not heard the same said about the 717's, although it might make sense to do this at Moorgate and possibly other subterranean NCL stations. It is to be hoped that no-one would be likely to complain about the rain and cold... not in the deep level tube train tunnels!
     
  23. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I'm sure the software will allow auto opening on the 717s but we'll have to wait and see if it's implemented. It wasn't on the service I used (Moorgate to Gordon Hill).
     
  24. Aictos

    Aictos On Moderation

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    Between Potters Bar/Gordon Hill and Moorgate I can see this being used, certainly being used between Finsbury Park and Moorgate.
     
  25. ijmad

    ijmad Member

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    I thought I read somewhere that the auto-opening depended on particular ETCS ATO transmitters on the track, which obviously aren't installed on the Northern City line and may not be for many years. I could be misremembering and of course they could program a different way of auto-opening in to the software, although GPS isn't going to be much help in the tunnels.
     
  26. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Yes, there would need to be some form of beacon to ensure the doors are opened on the right side automatically (given there are two platforms at Moorgate, for example). But perhaps it could be set to open all the doors when the driver releases the doors?

    To be honest, the service isn't currently so frequent to need the same level of speed as in the core.
     
  27. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Apart from the high peak not all the doors are always used. In the high peak it isn’t normally an issue, but must admit sometimes the person stood by the door button forgets to move so that time saving may help. Highbury and Islington isn’t a problem with so many boarding. But old street you often lose a couple of seconds.

    I don’t think automatically opening the doors will make much difference. As I have said earlier the speed in turning around the train matters the most. The 313s just need the driver to walk up and turn the key. I understand the 717s are more complex. With trains arriving after they should have departed at WGC and Moorgate this could become a problem.
     
  28. jellybaby

    jellybaby Member

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    That's not what I've seen. I don't know what goes on inside the cab but they also need to clear the destination blind at the now rear and set it at the front, both of which seem to include nipping out the cab and having a look. I presume the 717s will allow setting both ends from the same place for example.
     
  29. Fred26

    Fred26 Member

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    They're checking the lights, not the blinds.
     
  30. Skimpot flyer

    Skimpot flyer Member

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    A source on the Northern City Line group (on Facebook) says some 717 diagrams will be operational on 28th January.
    Which year, I don’t know
     

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