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Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

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The Planner

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bluenoxid said:
Wow!

Did the Guards feet touch the ground at Blackrod and Leyland or did they float? That is some impressive work aided by the new infrastructure and traction.
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Hmmm, looking at that schedule, 4 was made up from the massive dwell at Bolton and bits at other station stops. I would also suggest there was pathing time on the approach to Euxton which it didnt require. Yes, it will be better than DMU timings but not 13 minutes better.
 
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Llama

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Yes I agree, those claims don't stand up to scrutiny.

Something is not quite right about those timings posted above linked to from RTT. And I say that having driven the route myself in a 319 giving it 'a decent go'.
 
LNW-GW Joint

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Llama said:
Yes I agree, those claims don't stand up to scrutiny.
Something is not quite right about those timings posted above linked to from RTT. And I say that having driven the route myself in a 319 giving it 'a decent go'.
Click to expand...

Is the 75mph limit still in place for EMUs (not that the timetable needs anything more)?
My one 319 trip this week was at a decent lick, but maybe not more than 75.
 
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Trapper

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re post: 3879350

Baguley Fold, Manchester North, Ashton Moss, Northendon Jcn, Deansgate, Vitriol, Castleton E, Rochdale, Smithy Bridge, Eccles, Astley, Bromley Cross, Bootle, Drigg Sellafield, St Bees, Bransty, Workington, Maryport and Wiogton are all scheduled to be transferred to Manchester ROC in 2019. (see https://signalbox.org/sectionc.php)
 
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Llama

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I think that list is a bit out of date, Manchester North SCC was abolished nearly four years ago. Baguley Fold Jn SB was kept despite Ashton Moss North Jn SB being abolished last April. Also Smithy Bridge SB went donkeys years ago.
 
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Trapper

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Llama said:
I think that list is a bit out of date, Manchester North SCC was abolished nearly four years ago. Baguley Fold Jn SB was kept despite Ashton Moss North Jn SB being abolished last April. Also Smithy Bridge SB went donkeys years ago.
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Manchester North SB became part of Manchester Picadilly PSB it's functionality is now scheduled to be transferred to Manchester ROC along with the other Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge line signalling in 2019.
 
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edwin_m

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Elecman said:
As Grailstar so eloquently puts it, the Great Extension Lead is a series of HV cables on / near the ground to feed the overhead line switching station at Ordsall Lane. As a point there is also a second GLE on the Great Western Main Line due to another Grayling cancellation from the new Grid Feeder at Melksham to Thingley. They are certainly not cheap.
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There would probably have been an extension lead in both places, though somewhat less than "great". With the original OLE scope if there was a problem with the wires between Heyrod and Stalybridge then the entire feeder station would be unuseable. Providing a trackside feeder to Stalybridge would bypass this single point of failure to allow feed into Manchester via either Guide Bridge or Ashton even if the other one of those section was out of use. Similarly from Melksham to Wootton Bassett although that would also have had an alternative feed via Bath and Filton.
 
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Llama

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Trapper said:
Manchester North SB became part of Manchester Picadilly PSB it's functionality is now scheduled to be transferred to Manchester ROC along with the other Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge line signalling in 2019.
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No, both panels of Manchester North SCC went into the ROC over Easter weekend in 2015, it was the second area in the ROC after the Liverpool workstation (Lea Green - Broad Green, roughly the former control area of Huyton SB).
What was Manchester North SB - West Panel became M/cr ROC - M/cr Central w/s; and M/cr North - East Panel became M/cr ROC - M/cr North w/s.
 
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The Planner

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Trapper said:
re post: 3879350

Baguley Fold, Manchester North, Ashton Moss, Northendon Jcn, Deansgate, Vitriol, Castleton E, Rochdale, Smithy Bridge, Eccles, Astley, Bromley Cross, Bootle, Drigg Sellafield, St Bees, Bransty, Workington, Maryport and Wiogton are all scheduled to be transferred to Manchester ROC in 2019. (see https://signalbox.org/sectionc.php)
Click to expand...
Wildly out of date, no one even knows what to do with the Cumbrian coast yet.
 
Elecman

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Heyrod is the National Grid 400kv Feeder station and would have been cabled to Stalybridge AutoTransformer Feeder Station( ATFS ) not necessarily via railway land. However with a Stalybridge- Manchester being delayed there isn’t a Stalybridge ATFS to connect to nor wires from there to Man Vic hence the need for the Great Extension Lead. If Stalybridge electrification had continued there would be no need for it at all. The same with the Great Western version.
 
td97

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To add, the main reason for delays to Stalybridge electrification is TPRU* may result in new alignments to enhance journey times, so there's no point putting in OLE as per NWEP* proposals to go and change it all within a few years. Do it once and do it right.
*Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade
*North West Electrification Project

(And thanks to those who detailed the ROC timescales.)
 
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john prytherch

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Straying slightly from the Blackpool - Manchester route, but perhaps "Llama" can clarify:

1. I understand that Baguley Fold is retained because it supervises Clayton Bridge level crossing. I believe there have been a few mishaps there in history, so local control remains desirable.

2. I am still not absolutely clear which box now controls the CLC between Glazebrook East Junction's most easterly automatic signals (at Flixton) and the point between Trafford Park and Cornbrook where the MP plating (whose first automatic signals are those at Urmston) gives way to the MC plating of the Manchester ROC "Manchester Central" workstation. I get the impression that this area, whose signals remain plated MP, has been recontrolled rather than resignalled (as the MC area has been resignalled). It would seem a bit odd for the ROC to hand control back to Piccadilly panel just for this shortish bit, although it includes the connections to the two Trafford Park goods depots (Freightliner and DB Cargo) and the United Football Ground platform loop. On page 63 of the February 2019 Modern Railways is a picture of the "panel controlling the Castlefield corridor" in Manchester ROC, which tends to confirm this. So can anyone definitely tell me whether Glazebrook East Junction now works to Piccadilly Panel, or to the ROC (the box I like to call "Ashburys Middle"!) ?


John Prytherch.
 
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Llama

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Hi John, Glazebrook East SB fringes to Manchester ROC, Oxford Rd workstation, but some of the signals retain their 'MP' I.D., as they do at Oxford Rd. The ones replated 'MC' are in the area where the method of train detection is now by axle counters rather than track circuits. Signalling remains TCB. Here is a list of current control areas:

Manchester Piccadilly – Station Panel
(Ardwick Jn to Manchester Piccadilly (incl.))

Manchester Piccadilly – Longsight Panel
(Ardwick Jn (excl.) to Heaton Norris Jn)

Manchester Piccadilly – Heald Green Panel
(Slade Lane Jn (excl.) to Manchester Airport; Heald Green North Jn to Wilmslow (excl.))

Manchester Piccadilly – Windsor Bridge Panel
(Crow Nest In (excl.) to Lostock Jn; Bromley Cross to Bolton; Adlington to Ordsall Lane Jn (excl.); Windsor Bridge North Jn to Pendlebury Tunnel)

Manchester Piccadilly – Crow Nest Workstation
(Hindley to Westhoughton; Crow Nest Jn to Pendlebury Tunnel)

Manchester ROC – Blackpool Workstation
(Preston Fylde In (excl.) to Blackpool North and Blackpool South)

Manchester ROC – Lime Street Workstation
(All lines from Edge Hill (exclusive) to Liverpool Lime Street station)

Manchester ROC – Liverpool Workstation
(Roby Jn to Rainhill; Huyton Jn to Thatto Heath)

Manchester ROC - Wavertree West Workstation (Mossley Hill to Halewood West Jn (excl.))

Manchester ROC – Manchester Central Workstation
(Eccles (excl.) through Ordsall Lane Jn to Miles Platting Jn (excl.))

Manchester ROC – Manchester North Workstation
(Miles Platting Jn (incl.) to Vitriol Works (excl.) / Baguley Fold Jn (excl.) / Philips Park South Jn. (incl.); Clayton Bridge CCTV Crossing (excl.) to Stalybridge Jn (excl.))

Manchester ROC – Oxford Road Workstation
(Manchester Piccadilly West End Platforms 13/14 to Flixton (Cheshire Lines)).

As for Baguley Fold SB, I can only speculate a technical reason for its stay of execution might be either the level crossing or an interlocking compatibility issue. Denton Jn SB also remains. Carleton CCTV Crossing between Poulton-le-Fylde and Layton is controlled in the ROC by Blackpool workstation but the crossing was renewed while the Blackpool line was closed.
 
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td97 said:
To add, the main reason for delays to Stalybridge electrification is TPRU* may result in new alignments to enhance journey times, so there's no point putting in OLE as per NWEP* proposals to go and change it all within a few years. Do it once and do it right.
*Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade
*North West Electrification Project
Click to expand...
Hmm. When the line eventually is electrified, what's the betting that the troughing of the Extension Lead is found to be in the way of some of the mast bases, necessitating expensive rework?

Considering the cost of insulated high voltage cable, I am unconvinced that this long ground level lead will turn out to be a cost effective solution, compared with planting a row of wooden poles alongside the railway and stringing bare cable from them. Overhead lines on wooden poles are widely used by the electricity companies for their 33kV distribution networks.

Then the AT feeder could have later been moved across to the OLE masts, once erected.
 
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Llama said:
Hi John, Glazebrook East SB fringes to Manchester ROC, Oxford Rd workstation, but some of the signals retain their 'MP' I.D., as they do at Oxford Rd. The ones replated 'MC' are in the area where the method of train detection is now by axle counters rather than track circuits. Signalling remains TCB. Here is a list of current control areas:

......

Manchester ROC – Lime Street Workstation
(All lines from Edge Hill (exclusive) to Liverpool Lime Street station)

Manchester ROC – Liverpool Workstation
(Roby Jn to Rainhill; Huyton Jn to Thatto Heath)

Manchester ROC - Wavertree West Workstation (Mossley Hill to Halewood West Jn (excl.))
Click to expand...

Thanks for this @Llama ! Just checking, but I presume that Edge Hill has not gone to the ROC yet?

I've been trying to check this areas against the most recent edition of Quail TRACKMaps Book 4.:s
 
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Llama

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Edge Hill is I think earmarked for abolition and transfer to Manchester ROC in April/May this year. I did read this somewhere but I can't remember the source.
 
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WHat is and what isnt public highway isnt clearly defined. Quite a lot of road has no deeds or suchlike so its difficult to know who actually owns it.
When i bought my house I had to buy insurance because the approach road doesnt appear to have an owner. Everyone says its owned by county highways but there is nothing to say thats true.
 
LNW-GW Joint

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LeylandLen said:
WCML Closed sat afternoon 20/04/19 and all the next Sunday between Wigan Preston so it seems VT 390s being diverted via Bolton ,Man Picc(not stopping) and Stockport starting with .http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y82430/2019/04/20/advanced
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Only 40.5 minutes of allowances between Preston and Stockport on that schedule!
I guess they have to lose a lot of time in order to pick up a "normal" path at Crewe.
TPE are diverting via Bolton as well (with much smaller allowances).
The Easter weekend is another of those holidays when the WCML just gives up and sends folk via Marylebone and King's Cross.
 
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