Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[yorksrob]

Apparently I have been. Genuinely haven't experienced any major issues since other than when Salford Crescent has been closed for works down there. That said, for four months of last year there was a strike every Saturday anyway so the less said about those days the better.

As I say, only major issues I had were during the Farnworth blockade, 3 years ago was that now?

Not only me, but my friend who lives there has pretty much had to forget the train all year (for Saturdays) last year. If I'm not visiting there, he's often using the train so between us we would normally use the line half the weekends of the year (if note more).

 

[LDECRexile]

As hoped, I had a jaunt along the southern part of "our" line today.

I've posted photos in the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/with/72157661069863633

Alas, a film I took at Salford Crescent won't load, probably too big.

 

[LDECRexile]

I have managed to cock the link up.

Here's another go:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Apologies.

Dave

 

[GRALISTAIR]

You are forgiven. Good shots by the way

 

[Clip]

Any noticeable knock on impact yet on other Northern services of the use of 319s via Bolton? Eg less shortforming of diesel unit services?

The 0613 Stockport - Blackpool North was 2 coaches this morning

 

[a_c_skinner]

Part of the problems has apparently been that more historic mining (200+ years) often nearer the surface that wasn't properly recorded.

and other observations, all true. It doesn't detract from the fact that the basic nature of the geology was known even if the details were lost. As above the BGS is pretty fastidious about keeping historical stuff and the huge Victorian interest in geology as a gentleman's science (it had the biggest scientific society of all for a long time) both mean there should have been resources. With hindsight the way to scope a project like this is to dig perhaps 5% as a sample of the foundations along the route early on and that will give you a much better idea of how long it will take. It wouldn't have helped with the Farnworth Tunnel's geology of course.

Now I'm off to find a geological map and my crayons.

 

[themiller]

The problem with the old mines was that they were dug as a narrow shaft until coal was reached the the shaft was extended outwards and down. They are known as ‘bell pits’ because of the shape in cross section. If you dig an exploratory hole to detect one, it’s more likely than not that you’ll miss but piling for a mast several metres deep has more of a chance of hitting one. These pits weren’t a major industry as some seem to think but more of a cottage industry where the coal was dug out then another was sunk somewhere in the same vicinity if the coal seam was good. I believe that, when each was exhausted, the trapdoor was shut and just abandoned. In those days, no one had a long term strategic view so the pits weren’t recorded apart from in the memory of the miners and any locals.

 

[nodrogchannel]

Not sure if it's been posted here yet but I've been asked to put it on, enjoy

More info and free photos at https://www.nodrogvlogs.uk/

 

[Llama]

Thanks for posting that, I remember 'upstairs', and the other rooms at Bolton, quite well!

 

[a_c_skinner]

If you dig an exploratory hole to detect one, it’s more likely than not that you’ll miss but piling for a mast several metres deep

Yes, but if you dig say 5% of the mast foundations to finished spec (you can work out how big a sample you need, it may be more like 1% - statistical power calculations tell you how many) you will have a good idea of how many will be easy and how many troublesome. It won't make them any easier, but it would get you a better estimate of the magnitude of the problems and how much resource you need to put in.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Yes, but if you dig say 5% of the mast foundations to finished spec (you can work out how big a sample you need, it may be more like 1% - statistical power calculations tell you how many) you will have a good idea of how many will be easy and how many troublesome. It won't make them any easier, but it would get you a better estimate of the magnitude of the problems and how much resource you need to put in.

You're assuming a non-variant or uniformly varying substrate, not a real one with numerous uniform and non-uniform layers randomly placed?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes, but if you dig say 5% of the mast foundations to finished spec (you can work out how big a sample you need, it may be more like 1% - statistical power calculations tell you how many) you will have a good idea of how many will be easy and how many troublesome. It won't make them any easier, but it would get you a better estimate of the magnitude of the problems and how much resource you need to put in.

The ground doesn't work like that. There is no way of getting a statistical representation on such a large basis. Considering a lot of the problems are with unrecorded mines again, something that you can't fit into a statistical extrapolation.

The amount of risk you'd import into a project doing that would be mega.

 

[a_c_skinner]

You're assuming a non-variant or uniformly varying substrate, not a real one with numerous uniform and non-uniform layers randomly placed?

No, I'm assuming a random sample of masts giving some estimate of how many masts were likely to be troublesome in a varying substrate. It is exactly what a random sample is for, you'd end up with an estimate of how many foundations were easy, how many not. It would be an estimate, but you'd get confidence limits too, which would narrow as your sample size increased. Either way, it is all finished now.

Edit - apart from the extension lead.

 

[edwin_m]

You might be able to tell that about 5% will be troublesome, but not which 5% until you come to try to install them. Then you have to change the design for each of those and come back later. That seems to have been pretty much what has happened.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Yes, obviously, but it would have enabled better planning of time and resources needed. UK civil engineering doesn't work well. You put in a very optimistic bid to get the work then (if you don't go bust) you argue the toss about difficulties and delays en route.

 

[lancastrian]

Thanks for posting that, I remember 'upstairs', and the other rooms at Bolton, quite well!

I also remember those room upstairs on what was platforms 3 & 4 (now 4 & 5). I used to work at Bolton Parcels from 1972 to 1977. The room where mainly for the Station or Area Offices. Downstairs many of the room had been converted into sorting areas for the various delivery areas that where served from Bolton Station. Plus if you came up from the main entrance end you would come to the kitchen which was used mainly by the Railmen (and women) for their break time. We supposed 'posh' people (clerks) used an office at platform level. I am really glad that they are going to be updated and re-used. I really hope that they will have the 'common sense' to incorporate all those wonderful L&Y period items as they do the update.

 

[Ken H]

could not geophysics help finding underground stuff? Ground penetrating radar and stuff like that.

 

[59CosG95]

could not geophysics help finding underground stuff? Ground penetrating radar and stuff like that.

There's only so much GPR can do.

 

[PN27]

It really is a comprehensive route upgrade. Not just an electrification project. I doubt a single sleeper, ballast stone or signalling cable has been left untouched. People are quick to point out how Scotland's so-called 'rolling electrification programme' is the perfect electrification solution, but last time I checked these schemes didn't come with a 33% speed improvement, additional and re-modelled platforms, or super-modern signalling controlled from a state-of-the-art ROC (Rail Operating Centre). The line has done so well to be worthy of these expensive upgrades, and it'll only improve in time when the new trains arrive on the route.

Small correction: the only part of the route controlled by an ROC (Ashburys, to be specific) is the section between Salford Crescent (exclusive) and Manchester Victoria/Manchester Oxford Road. Salford Crescent- Blackrod (inclusive) is controlled from Manchester Piccadilly (the panel was modified to accommodate the changes at Bolton), and the remainder is controlled from Preston PSB.

 

[Llama]

To be precise, Salford West Jn (inclusive) through Victoria and eastward is under Manchester ROC, Piccadilly has control of Windsor Bridge South Jn from all approaches.
Manchester Central workstation at the ROC controls Ordsall Lane Jn (incl), Salford West Jn (incl.) to Miles Platting Jn (excl.) and Manchester North workstation at the ROC controls Miles Platting Jn (incl.) towards Moston, and to Baguley Fold SB. Manchester North W/S also controls east of Baguley Fold Jn which seems a bit ominous for Baguley Fold Jn SB.

 

[childwallblues]

I remember the upstairs on Platform 3. Went on a new ticket machine course about 2006.

 

[Jozhua]

What exactly is this extension lead that needs to be put in place?

I get its necessary to provide enough power for the trains, but I can't quite picture it in my head, just imagining a guy in high vis trying to plug in an extension chord but the wire is slightly too short...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What exactly is this extension lead that needs to be put in place?

I get its necessary to provide enough power for the trains, but I can't quite picture it in my head, just imagining a guy in high vis trying to plug in an extension chord but the wire is slightly too short...

OK - so originally the plan was to continue the electrification from Man Victoria -to Stalybridge and then all the way through Leeds and York. So you have to have grid feed(s) periodically otherwise there is just too much power draw and it will overload the other grid feeds. Stalybridge grid feeder aka Heyrod was chosen and the necessary long lead time kit was ordered and the National Grid duly alerted to plan. Then comes cost cutting because of overspends. Throw in a great read in RAIL 870 that the DfT must go because head count staff turnover is so great nobody knows what they are doing so the Secretary of State aka Failing Grayling gets badly informed/or is incompetent and duly cancels / postpones/ suspends project across the Pennines. But whoa wait a minute. Grid feed is still needed - so they come up with a cost cutting plan (could turn out to actually cost more). If you have OHLE wires there is no problem - everything gets fed nicely. No OHLE wires - you still have to feed. So the cost saving measure they came up with is to run 25kV cables in troughs from Heyrod to the Northwest Electrification scheme - particularly the Bolton corridor. Certain electrical engineers on this board christened it - The Great Extension Lead. If I might say so - a very British solution.

 

[Elecman]

As Grailstar so eloquently puts it, the Great Extension Lead is a series of HV cables on / near the ground to feed the overhead line switching station at Ordsall Lane. As a point there is also a second GLE on the Great Western Main Line due to another Grayling cancellation from the new Grid Feeder at Melksham to Thingley. They are certainly not cheap.

 

[td97]

Small correction: the only part of the route controlled by an ROC (Ashburys, to be specific) is the section between Salford Crescent (exclusive) and Manchester Victoria/Manchester Oxford Road. Salford Crescent- Blackrod (inclusive) is controlled from Manchester Piccadilly (the panel was modified to accommodate the changes at Bolton), and the remainder is controlled from Preston PSB.

Whoops, my mistake! The rest still stands though, and the signalling was still upgraded. Is there an ETA for the signalling to be controlled from Manchester ROC*?

I managed to make an electric service myself yesterday - the differences in smoothness, quietness and ride quality are noteworthy improvements. The refurbished 319 interior is pleasant enough too. They seem to be making easy work of the DMU* timings, with my service arriving 4 minutes early. Another example is today's 0731 EMU* to Blackpool North, which left MCO* 13 minutes late. It was on time after Leyland.



Is the current service the maximum possible under present feeding arrangements? Or is it due to Northern not having enough spare/serviceable EMUs? Regardless, it seems to have been a successful introduction so far.

*Rail Operating Centre
*Diesel Multiple Unit
*Electric Multiple Unit
*Manchester Oxford Rd

 

[Jozhua]

So basically the great extension lead is another example of the DAFT cancelling a project and there still being great cost due to the fact infrastructure has been put in place with the expectation that the project would continue...

One wonders wether Network rail should just suspend the great extension lead above the tracks

 

[Ken H]

Whoops, my mistake! The rest still stands though, and the signalling was still upgraded. Is there an ETA for the signalling to be controlled from Manchester ROC*?

I managed to make an electric service myself yesterday - the differences in smoothness, quietness and ride quality are noteworthy improvements. The refurbished 319 interior is pleasant enough too. They seem to be making easy work of the DMU* timings, with my service arriving 4 minutes early. Another example is today's 0731 EMU* to Blackpool North, which left MCO* 13 minutes late. It was on time after Leyland.

View attachment 59247 View attachment 59246 View attachment 59248

Is the current service the maximum possible under present feeding arrangements? Or is it due to Northern not having enough spare/serviceable EMUs? Regardless, it seems to have been a successful introduction so far.

*Rail Operating Centre
*Diesel Multiple Unit
*Electric Multiple Unit
*Manchester Oxford Rd

not enough 319 trained drivers/guards. units interworking with other services on non electrified lines.

 

[bluenoxid]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y53719/2019/02/16/advanced

Wow!

Did the Guards feet touch the ground at Blackrod and Leyland or did they float? That is some impressive work aided by the new infrastructure and traction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So basically the great extension lead is another example of the DAFT cancelling a project and there still being great cost due to the fact infrastructure has been put in place with the expectation that the project would continue...

The cancellation was down to Network Rail having badly overspent the electrification budget on this and other projects, notably the GW scheme.
It was largely NR self-destruction, and came towards the end of CP5 with the money running out fast.
You cannot just keep spending money regardless.

 

[Jozhua]

The cancellation was down to Network Rail having badly overspent the electrification budget on this and other projects, notably the GW scheme.
It was largely NR self-destruction, and came towards the end of CP5 with the money running out fast.
You cannot just keep spending money regardless.

Ahh, makes sense, at least the infrastructure is finally there, and I'm guessing the power supply the great extension lead is being taken from can be used for future electrification?