90019
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Scottish independence
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Ivo
Established Member
I've seen a couple of posters around campus today, advertising a certain something that is happening on Wednesday that I strongly disapprove of. Then, among the corporate icons (or whatever they're called) at the bottom, where it lists things like Unite and Bath Spa SU, I saw something that made me feel even more strongly against the Strike: "Labour at Bath Spa"! 
Seeing this made me think of this thread (so how ironic/amusing/whatever that it has been revived) - and this quote from the OP:
If Scotland became independent, everyone would lose. But if it stopped these moronic Socialist hypocrites from gaining power again, then left Salmond have his ill-conceived way.
P.S.: Strike thread coming up.
I knew Aachen was close to the border, but ouch!
Seeing this made me think of this thread (so how ironic/amusing/whatever that it has been revived) - and this quote from the OP:If Scotland became independent, everyone would lose. But if it stopped these moronic Socialist hypocrites from gaining power again, then left Salmond have his ill-conceived way.
P.S.: Strike thread coming up.
Where my cousin lives in Aachen in Germany, a trip to the local shop requires a 10 mins walk along the road, 'crossing' the border into the Netherlands. That's an international border with a language change!It's marked only by a sign.
I knew Aachen was close to the border, but ouch!
scotsman
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You call them "Socialist hypocrites" because they were socialist ("Old Labour") and became centre-right with New Labour. They are, to this day, still centre-right, sadly.
Yet, you call them "Socialist"...that's a bit odd...
Would you really sacrifice a country for your own ideological view?
Ivo
Established Member
Of course not. It's just to illustrate the point. And I realise that Labour are far more right-leaning than before, but in comparison to the Conservative party they are still to the left. I still feel that much of the old Socialist stereotype is still true though. I do like how like did not quote my use of "moronic" though!
Please accept my apologies if the last two posts of mine that you have responded to seemed inciteful or similar. They are just things I feel strongly about.
Please accept my apologies if the last two posts of mine that you have responded to seemed inciteful or similar. They are just things I feel strongly about.
I beleive there was a quote about New Labour being "the best Tory government we've ever had". I've always been surprised the European Socialist Party never threw them out. Thankfully, they're moving back towards the left a little.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Currently, are we getting independence by "salami policy"? "President Salmond" (the more I say that, the more off-putting it sounds) appears to be grabbing every concession he can get from the British government. He's also using the tactic of accusing people of "talking Scotland down" whenever they suggest that his financial case is not sound. Remember that independence will be a one-way street, so if we do have an independent Scotland with an economy like Ireland or Greece (which just might happen) all those wonderful Scottish public services will disappear, but London will be quite happy to lend money. However, the door won't open up again, so Alexander III, King of Scots might find himself in very hot water.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Currently, are we getting independence by "salami policy"? "President Salmond" (the more I say that, the more off-putting it sounds) appears to be grabbing every concession he can get from the British government. He's also using the tactic of accusing people of "talking Scotland down" whenever they suggest that his financial case is not sound. Remember that independence will be a one-way street, so if we do have an independent Scotland with an economy like Ireland or Greece (which just might happen) all those wonderful Scottish public services will disappear, but London will be quite happy to lend money. However, the door won't open up again, so Alexander III, King of Scots might find himself in very hot water.
Butts
Veteran Member
Although I did not vote for the last Labour Government and am not left wing I think they made a reasonable fist of things (apart from the smoking ban
)For people in low paid jobs the introduction of the minimum wage and statutory paid holidays springs to mind.
Most people take this as given - but there are millions who benefited.
In my view Tony Blair was a good Prime Minister - the only Labour leader to win three elections in a row. Had Brown not taken over he could have made it 4 !!
Speaking as a Tory living in Scotland (rare as hens teeth) perhaps this endorses you comment about "best Tory etc".
Oh how the tides are changing.
They are?
SS4
Established Member
Are they?
We could learn something from Scotland - a country with more pandas than Tory MPs
We could learn something from Scotland - a country with more pandas than Tory MPs
Butts
Veteran Member
Are they?
We could learn something from Scotland - a country with more pandas than Tory MPs
Ever heard of "Tartan Tories" aka SNP - most of their Westminster seats were formerly Conservative held
90019
Established Member
What makes you say that?
CarterUSM
Established Member
I think because of a poll published in the papers today, if memory serves, 65% of 1200 people were in favour of independence , or suchlike. Though all i've heard from the parish cooncil is a deafening silence. I do wish this issue could be put to bed once and for all, I see no benefit for independence myself , but lets see what the whole Scots electorate think sooner rather than later.
scotsman
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By any chance was it a Sun poll?
There's some debate over whether the Sun is working for Murdoch (by helping the Tories by supporting Labour's opposition in Scotland) or just attempting to retain readership in a circulation war with the Record - the paper closest to its readership's views being the most likely to win readers. However, the Sun in England stuck with the Tories in '92, when Labour were more popular, and proudly proclaimed "it woz the sun wot won it"
Anyway, if a paper with an ideological viewpoint commissions a poll - expect the poll to reflect their viewpoint. If the paper runs a story on someone else's poll, that's a different matter
[/Politics essay]
CarterUSM
Established Member
It was certainly the sun I read it in, and yes, I wouldn't expect anything other than their own viewpoint!
scotsman
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This now raises the question, Carter, why were you reading it?!
CarterUSM
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Obviously found on the train! I haven't bought a paper in years bar the occasional Sunday Herald.
Eeveevolve
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Does anyone still have the plans for Hadrian's Wall??
XD
XD
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
I've refrained from commenting on this thread (and similar threads) in general, but as you have raised an issue with specific relevance to Rail investment, then I will.
This is one of the areas where devolution (in any of it theoretical forms) is hard to map onto national infrastructure developments. It makes it hard to argue for investment, hard to argue the social and economic benefits and hard to argue any long-term benefit when the beneficiary administration is in flux.
By way of illustration, there are other rail-related casualties already (as well as the widely discussed road transport casualty of neither administration being willing to fund dual carriageways on the remaining singled sections of the A1 road between Morpeth and Haddington). The obvious local suburban rail link is to exploit available paths on the ECML to link Berwick with its neighbours to the north and south. Berwick residents have little interest in the Border and just wish to get on with their business and with their lives!). But as any local sevice requires English and Scottish cooperation acting as one, they are doomed.
Add to this challenge the problem that most English people 'forget' that they haven't had their own Government for over 100 years, and we find that there isn't any forum in which the most informed debate is likely to take place.
I did experience the difficulty in having any constructive debate over local cross-border services on the ECML, even while there was a Regional Development Agency for the North East of England at the same time as there was a pro-active Transport for Scotland; taking this as an indicator, there is surely now less prospect of cross-border co-operation, now that England has neither a Government nor its Regional Development Agencies, and that Scotland has lost its enthusiasm for cross-border investment.
In short: No.
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Old Timer
Established Member
Why should this be a problem ?
There are numerous examples of where roads and railways cross from one Country to another worldwide. They get around the problem without any difficulties, why should the UK be the only part of the World where such things be impossible ??
The same situation exists at my local station, Lockerbie, which has the potential to be the railhead for the whole of Southern Scotland.
Lockerbie has been part of the WCML for many years, but recent "improvements" to the WCML have seen it shorn of most main line (Virgin) services which have been replaced by an infrequent and under resourced Trans Pennine operation.
So, all the services are provided by TOCs from the English side of the border, the service specification is by DFT, but the station is in Scotland and is operated by Scotrail who have no trains to/from Lockerbie, and lastly Transport for Scotland seem to have no interest in specifying a local service to Carlisle -presumably because that flow would be to England!
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Immediately before the Christmas recess, the UK Government published its updated paper "The West Lothian Question", pdf copy now obtainable here. The most recent development, as some of you will be aware, is that "The Government has announced that it will create a commission to look into the issue in terms of parliamentary business and procedure, but leaving aside finance and the balance of political representation. The intention is for this commission to start work in February 2012"
[For the benefit of anyone unfamiliar with The West Lothian Question, it is explained in the report. In summary, the MP in Westminster representing a Scottish constituency may vote for an Education or Transport Bill affecting England but cannot vote for these matters affecting his/her own constituency].
Re: Investment in Cross-border transport developments
I'm tempted to accuse the devolved Governments of immaturity and to seek an explanation of their resistance to invest in cross-border initiatives in their youthful exuberance exercising a new-found freedom; but that is of no more assistance as it would be to accuse the English of a lack of Government.
When one studies the detail of road and rail investment proposals between the North of England and the Scottish Central Belt, it is clear that support can be found within Westminster for strategic UK arteries and within Holyrood for strategic internal arteries and for international links. Neither of those address the current needs nor development potential for the regional and parochial communities. Meanwhile the needs of the residents and businesses around Berwick-on-Tweed (in both territories) remain overlooked, in fact one of the regions of the UK with the lowest investment in regeneration is the southern Scottish Borders (Dumfries & Galloway with its nearest City over the border at Carlisle isn't much better regarded).
I don't see that any improvement to the situation is likely soon, meanwhile the serious and fatal road accidents on the single-carriageway stretches of the A1 remain as frightening as the queues of stationary traffic in Summer months are frustrating; and the ECML runs so very near to the A1, connecting the same communities as that road, but conveying only long-distance traffic. I hope we don't find that the scaremongers' mantra that 'it takes a few fatalities to secure investment' is the only key to unlocking this problem.
[For the benefit of anyone unfamiliar with The West Lothian Question, it is explained in the report. In summary, the MP in Westminster representing a Scottish constituency may vote for an Education or Transport Bill affecting England but cannot vote for these matters affecting his/her own constituency].
Re: Investment in Cross-border transport developments
Yes, that is my understanding.
I don't believe that there is a Consititutional reason to explain why this SHOULD be a problem, though the Administrative issues raised by 'The West Lothian Question' certainly applies to both nations' Transport Departments, so it is certainly a contributory factor to the difficulties in reaching any agreement; even in reaching an informed debate!
I'm tempted to accuse the devolved Governments of immaturity and to seek an explanation of their resistance to invest in cross-border initiatives in their youthful exuberance exercising a new-found freedom; but that is of no more assistance as it would be to accuse the English of a lack of Government.
When one studies the detail of road and rail investment proposals between the North of England and the Scottish Central Belt, it is clear that support can be found within Westminster for strategic UK arteries and within Holyrood for strategic internal arteries and for international links. Neither of those address the current needs nor development potential for the regional and parochial communities. Meanwhile the needs of the residents and businesses around Berwick-on-Tweed (in both territories) remain overlooked, in fact one of the regions of the UK with the lowest investment in regeneration is the southern Scottish Borders (Dumfries & Galloway with its nearest City over the border at Carlisle isn't much better regarded).
I don't see that any improvement to the situation is likely soon, meanwhile the serious and fatal road accidents on the single-carriageway stretches of the A1 remain as frightening as the queues of stationary traffic in Summer months are frustrating; and the ECML runs so very near to the A1, connecting the same communities as that road, but conveying only long-distance traffic. I hope we don't find that the scaremongers' mantra that 'it takes a few fatalities to secure investment' is the only key to unlocking this problem.
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I have just seen on BBC News that Scottish Secretary Michael Moore has said the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to hold a binding referendum on independence. Any change to Scotlands constitutional settlement rests with the UK government.
Eagle
Established Member
They do have the power, it's just Westminster retains the right of refusal if it's a yes. (Technically Westminster can rescind any power it likes from Holyrood, but it would be political suicide to do so.)
That's not what the Scottish Secretary is saying, he says the UK government must first authorize any referendum and that the power for this will only be devolved if it is legal fair and decisive: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16478121
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Butts
Veteran Member
Mind you the Conservatives have only one Westminster MP - the Lib Dems a few more.
However it would be morally wrong to dabble with the result either way.
An added point only the Scottish Electorate should be able to participate not exiled Scots in the rest of the UK.
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