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First win Intercity West Coast franchise

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asylumxl

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Hiding in your shadow
Will First or the DfT be ordering the 6 carriage units?

If First, I wonder if they'll buy them and hold on to them like the HSTs on the GW and using them as a bargaining tool.
 
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Jay

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First group share price is down by almost 8%.

Maybe even the shareholders don't think the sums add up?

Stagecoach shares are up slightly.
 

ushawk

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First Scotrail and TPE are excellent TOCs and I see you have amended your opinion on FGE. In fact, First has done pretty well overall.
All in all ushawk, I fear you have hoisted yourself on your own petard!

Thanks for clearing up SR and TPE, changed FGE as i mixed my Great Eastern route TOCs up :oops:

But its my opinions, of course people will think differently.
 

YorkshireBear

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People on BBC comments think virgin are taking the trains with them, some suggesting first will use old trains like them on FCC on west coast. So while public opinion should be counted, i think for rail franchises it forms very little substance as some think that they will start using 313s on the west coast!!! Many people will notice no difference and soon they will see that.
 

PaxVobiscum

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Sir Beardy says he isn't bidding for any more franchises.

What he actually said was
Based on the current flawed system, it is extremely unlikely that we would bid again for a franchise. The process is too costly and uncertain, with our latest bid costing £14 million. We have made realistic offers for the East Coast twice before which were rejected by the Department for Transport for completely unrealistic ones and therefore will have to think hard before embarking on another bid.
(My bolding)


http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2012/08/statement-from-sir-richard-branson.html
 

WestCoast

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First will have a tough time on their hands if this is really how uninformed the travelling public are.

A lot the travelling public don't really understand how it works (why would they?). Virgin according to some turned the whole thing around all by themselves and no one else was involved. Of course, that's hardly true, is it?

Also, why do people keep predicting the success of a franchise based upon what has happened in the past on a different franchise or an another one in the portfolio? Different management, different commitments, different culture, different TOCs,

National Express had some great franchises before East Coast, need I say more...
 

Wath Yard

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davido39

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All I can say is, it is a sad day for the railways. Don't forget Firstgroup are selling bus operations to claw back on the loses First has made. How they are going to afford to run the West Coast Main line is beyond me, one thing is for sure the West Coast will now see a lot of changes and nor all for the good!
 

cle

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No, they are a break point that was agreed when the franchise was let. This is not the same as handing the keys back.

Technically not of course, but the spirit of it is the same. There is no set definition of 'handing the keys back'. To me, they didn't want to continue their franchise even though they could have, and so activated their break clause. Hardly shows dedication to their team, goals and region.

Legally ok sure, but now they've got the main prize which was obviously the reason for it. Probably complicit with DfT hence agreeing the clause.

Whether you choose to interpret that way depends on how you want it to be.
 

REVAP

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First seemed to be getting good press recently. Geat Western got a lot of bad press with overcrowding in Bristol and Devon, but that seesm to have bene resolved.

Voaygers from Shrewsbury - don't half miss the 67's of WSMR!!
 

GodAtum

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So as a regular commuter to Birmingham and a member of the Virgin Traveller Club will I lose everything?
 

ert47

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First group share price is down by almost 8%.

Maybe even the shareholders don't think the sums add up?

Stagecoach shares are up slightly.

Wasn't/Isn't Virgin West Coast 48% owned by Stagecoach?
 

F Great Eastern

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Technically not of course, but the spirit of it is the same. There is no set definition of 'handing the keys back'. To me, they didn't want to continue their franchise even though they could have, and so activated their break clause. Hardly shows dedication to their team, goals and region.

Legally ok sure, but now they've got the main prize which was obviously the reason for it. Probably complicit with DfT hence agreeing the clause.

Whether you choose to interpret that way depends on how you want it to be.

The way I choose to view it is in the initial franchise bid they factored in the introduction of service of the IEP trains which was consistantly delayed by the DFT and the Government many times. The whole tender process took far too long despite the fact the DFT basically inferred the process would be completed quicker.

Therefore First did the sensible thing, as their bid took into account such trains entering service, but the DFT did not deliver on the timescale they spoke about at bidding time so FGW got out.
 

GodAtum

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So will Virgin Trains collapse completely or are they still operating other lines?
 

Pen Mill

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Yes over 14 years. Or £393m per year vs this years £160m.

Be very careful with these numbers.
According to First's post-success presentation , the year on year figures are as follows
From page 18:=
http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/pd...Coast_franchise_award_presentation_150812.pdf
£ Millions

2013 -£11
2014 £26
2015 £106
2016 £178
2017 £265
2018 £325
2019 £390
2020 £443
2021 £498
2022 £552
2023 £602
2024 £644
2025 £697
2026 £739

so it's going to take 4 years before it even matches Today's £160 million.
I dislike back-end loaded solutions immensely because so much can change in that time frame
 

WestCoast

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Unless they win the East Coast franchise - they are gone.

Branson has mentioned going abroad at some point, there are many opportunities out there which may interest the VRG.

"Installation of automatic ticket gates installation at 21 stations, including the major terminals of London Euston, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool Lime St and Glasgow Central"

Ticket gates will not be going in at Preston as long as I have a hole in my arse

I knew FirstGroup would do this, they've bid a completely unprecedented amount so gating is probably the first thing they thought of.

I can see the merit in gating stations like Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western, because I am sure some short-distance users never end up paying. However, gates at main terminals are much less effective because they can't properly verify e.g. railcard discounts, peak time fare restrictions and advance tickets, unlike Virgin's RPIs at Euston.
 
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willc789

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Out of interest, what will happen to all of the admin/jobs at VT when the franchise changes? Will they transfer over to First along with the drivers/guards/other service staff?
 

mirodo

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Out of interest, what will happen to all of the admin/jobs at VT when the franchise changes? Will they transfer over to First along with the drivers/guards/other service staff?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what's happened in previous franchise changeovers - only the upper management change.
 

sprinterguy

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Wonderful news for Shropshire - but why wait until 2016 - stock cascade - IEP - Voyager with an electric coach?
I’m not sure what sort of timeline the second half of your post is attempting to suggest, but if you were to attempt to tie in West Coast fleet changes with developments in the IEP programme then you would have an even longer wait than December 2016, as the first IEP trains are not due to begin entering service until mid-2017.

I would raise the fact that the Section 54 Agreement ensuring that the 221s are used within the West Coast franchise runs until December 2016, but given that it seems that all the 221s are to be retained within the West Coast franchise beyond 2016 then this seems to be irrelevant.

A four year procurement process from the earliest possible date of launching an initial invitation to tender for new rolling stock until delivery and entry into service of the new trains does not sound unreasonable compared to other recent rolling stock orders, so I would suggest that December 2016 is a sensible target date to have the new trains in service before additional destinations can be added to the West Coast network.

Finally, it may not be possible to “Bi-mode” Virgin’s 221s, as Pumbaa has detailed in a different thread:
It has not proved possible to extend the concept to the 221s for two reasons;

a) the transformer car is to be unpowered; you can't fit powered bogies beneath, and cross feed them from ajoining cars without serious re-engineering and a complete lack of space besides. One transformer car can just about cope with the 4 cars. As soon as you add an extra car, the transformer car can't cope. So you either extend the 220s by 1 car to 5 cars, or by several cars to 8+. The economics just fall over at current.

b) assuming that the transformer capacity wasn't an issue, and you wanted to lengthen the 221s to 6-car or 5-car, you can't anyway. There is not enough space to fit the electro gubbins beneath the transformer car, fit tilting bogies, tilt controls and associated guff. It's just not feasible - there is simply not enough room underneath.

So that's the compromise. All 220s become 5 car and the 1 4-car 221 XC have. Virgin and the remaining 221s get diddly.
 

PaxVobiscum

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http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/investors/presentations.php said:
–Improved journey time of 15 minutes for trains between London and Glasgow

I make that 1596 mph. Must be some tilt angle. :D
 
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