Virgin Trains Railcard Peak Regulations

Trains06 · 24 Jun 2015

Hi All,

I'm looking for some clarification as to the off peak/peak rules on Virgin services with a railcard.

I booked in advance an off peak return using a 16-25 and senior railcard for use on the 08:01 VT service from Crewe to New St. I could select this ticket on the booking site I used (National Rail and also London Midland).

When I went in the morning to the ticket office at my local station to purchase an Anytime ticket from there to Crewe the London Midland agent asked out of interest if he could see my onward ticket from Crewe. I showed him and he said the ticket would not be valid on the 08:01 VT service as they do not set the price of that flow.

On boarding the 08:01 at Crewe I asked the TM who said the ticket was valid and was happy to have me on the train and subsequently I contacted Virgin who said it was valid.

Who is correct? I don't want to be pulled up on this in the future.

RailUK Forums

30907 · 24 Jun 2015

Trains06 said:
Hi All,

I'm looking for some clarification as to the off peak/peak rules on Virgin services with a railcard.

I booked in advance an off peak return using a 16-25 and senior railcard for use on the 08:01 VT service from Crewe to New St. I could select this ticket on the booking site I used (National Rail and also London Midland).

When I went in the morning to the ticket office at my local station to purchase an Anytime ticket from there to Crewe the agent asked out of interest if he could see my onward ticket from Crewe. I showed him and he said the ticket would not be valid on the 08:01 VT service as they do not set the price of that flow.

On boarding the 08:01 at Crewe I asked the TM who said the ticket was valid and was happy to have me on the train and subsequently I contacted Virgin who said it was valid.

Who is correct? I don't want to be pulled up on this in the future.

VT website says it is OK for through journeys on their services. Odd wording, don't think it prohibits changing between two VT services!
The website won't allow the concession for tickets involving non VT services, so I think they mean "journeys wholly on VT services" but it's not entirely clear.
In any case, your trip with split ticketing was definitely OK.

Trains06 · 24 Jun 2015

30907 said:
VT website says it is OK for through journeys on their services. Odd wording, don't think it prohibits changing between two VT services!
The website won't allow the concession for tickets involving non VT services, so I think they mean "journeys wholly on VT services" but it's not entirely clear.
In any case, your trip with split ticketing was definitely OK.

Thanks 30907.

So whichever TOC sets the price of the slow isn't relevant?

LNW-GW Joint · 24 Jun 2015

Trains06 said:
Thanks 30907.
So whichever TOC sets the price of the slow isn't relevant?

I think that was at one time in the conditions, but as the public don't know who sets the fares it's unenforceable.
Instead, they made the condition that all travel had to be on Virgin (VWC) services.
It used to be valid on connecting services (eg Chester-Euston on ATW to Crewe), but now has to be on VT only.
It also only applies to SVR/SVS off-peak tickets (the old Saver return/single).
It does not apply to other ticket types like Super Saver or CDR.

I've used these tickets to reach Birmingham in the peak on VT before without trouble, but if you then want to continue beyond on XC you can fall foul of their 0930 off-peak restriction leaving New St.

323235 · 24 Jun 2015

All spot on LNW-GW Joint

Starmill · 25 Jun 2015

Wait a minute, where does it say the easement is not valid with Off-Peak Day singles and returns? Also, I was under the impression that journeys with the easement must be only on VT and used in accordance with otherwise restrictions elsewhere. Not that the ticket must be 'split'. So your London to Chester example is valid on any VT Train, but not on ATW until such time as it would be valid without the railcard.

yorkie · 25 Jun 2015

Trains06 said:
Who is correct? I don't want to be pulled up on this in the future.

The website and the Guard were correct.

The booking office clerk was wrong.

I find Guards to be on average a bit more likely to be knowledgeable about ticket validity than booking office clerks, so this isn't too surprising.

Trains06 · 26 Jun 2015

Thanks for your comments, all. Very much appreciated!

Bletchleyite · 26 Jun 2015

starmill said:
Wait a minute, where does it say the easement is not valid with Off-Peak Day singles and returns? Also, I was under the impression that journeys with the easement must be only on VT and used in accordance with otherwise restrictions elsewhere. Not that the ticket must be 'split'. So your London to Chester example is valid on any VT Train, but not on ATW until such time as it would be valid without the railcard.

That's what I thought, but it does now read as if the ticket must be split. Yorkie?

Greenback · 26 Jun 2015

yorkie said:
I find Guards to be on average a bit more likely to be knowledgeable about ticket validity than booking office clerks, so this isn't too surprising.

This is correct. My feeling is that this is because guards are actually working the trains over the routes involved and checking tickets on board trains, rather than sitting in an office selling tickets.

To put it bluntly, the booking office clerks aren't really involved in revenue protection and ticket checking, and it isn't such a great requirement to keep up with changes in policy and things like the Routeing Guide.

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't know these things, of course, but the reality is that there are plenty of clerks whose knowledge is not up to date. It was exactly the same in my day, and I'd be the first to admit that I didn't know as much as the guys that actually worked the trains, despite my best efforts.

The nature of the job in a busy station, the structure of the company and its training, meant that there was little support even for those of us who wanted to improve our knowledge.

causton · 26 Jun 2015

Greenback said:
That doesn't mean that they shouldn't know these things, of course, but the reality is that there are plenty of clerks whose knowledge is not up to date. It was exactly the same in my day, and I'd be the first to admit that I didn't know as much as the guys that actually worked the trains, despite my best efforts.

The nature of the job in a busy station, the structure of the company and its training, meant that there was little support even for those of us who wanted to improve our knowledge.

Nice to know this isn't a localised problem just for me... some of my colleagues are still trying to sell £1 railcards unaware of the changes etc...

LNW-GW Joint · 26 Jun 2015

starmill said:
Wait a minute, where does it say the easement is not valid with Off-Peak Day singles and returns? Also, I was under the impression that journeys with the easement must be only on VT and used in accordance with otherwise restrictions elsewhere. Not that the ticket must be 'split'. So your London to Chester example is valid on any VT Train, but not on ATW until such time as it would be valid without the railcard.

From the Avantix text, it's SVR/SVS only:

2) Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are
discounted using 16-25, Senior , Disabled Persons, HM Forces
and Family & Friends Railcards and Jobcentre Plus Travel
Discount Card, can travel on Virgin Train services at any
time, provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only.

We are agreeing with each other on "splitting".
ATW to Crewe used to be valid, but not since the "VT Only" rule came in.
As this concession doesn't figure on VTEC, I suspect it will not last into the next ICWC franchise.

Bletchleyite · 26 Jun 2015

LNW-GW Joint said:
We are agreeing with each other on "splitting".

There are two readings of that.

1. All travel *under the easement* must be on Virgin Trains only, i.e. you could then (if permitted) break your journey and continue on another TOC at a time permitted by the restrictions.

or

2. If using the easement, you cannot use the ticket for travel on any other TOC at any other point during the journey (i.e. it effectively becomes route VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY), therefore, if you have a connecting journey you must split the ticket.

Which is the correct one officially? I'd *guess* 1, as I don't think VT get to say what other TOCs do.

yorkie · 26 Jun 2015

The only sensible interpretation is 1, I agree.

Bletchleyite · 26 Jun 2015

Does raise an interesting question where the VT restriction is worded based on the arrival time of the VT itself at Euston...is the local train actually restricted at all or not?

John @ home · 26 Jun 2015

That depends on whether break of journey is allowed.

gray1404 · 28 Jun 2015

Can I check something here n this VT easement. My friend wanted to buy a Liverpool to Wimbledon Off Peak Return with his railcard. He wanted to travel on the 07.47 (if I remember correctly) LIV-EUS, meet a friend in Central London for about 2 hours for brunch then travel on out of Waterloo.

The staff at Liverpool Lime Street refused to sell him the ticket and would only sell him an Anytime ticket on the basis that because his travel was to a destination further off the VT network, then his ticket (despite holding a railcard) was subject to the usual peak time restrictions for the entire journey. When he asked about this further they said that the ticket needs to be between 2 stations both served by VT in order to be used anytime on VT services. In this case, he had to wait until the 9.04am (and did approach a desk in the travel centre and another window at the ticket office and was told the same thing) before he could travel on an Off Peak Return.

Who was right?

On his return journey he travelled on a peak time service out of Euston and asked when they were checking tickets at Euston as passengers go onto the platform if his ticket was valid. The lady replied "yes its fine because you have a railcard" - even though his ticket was from Wimbledon.

34D · 28 Jun 2015

Everything in this thread presumably applies to the TOC Virgin Trains West Coast only, and not to the other TOC which is also under the parent brand 'virgin trains'?

CraigS · 28 Jun 2015

Sorry to hijack the thread but it's in relation to Virgin Trains.

I am intending to travel on the 07:30 VT service from London Euston as far as Preston on a weekday. When looking at the 'Off-peak Tickets PDF' off-peak tickets are only valid from London travelling north to Preston at or after 09:26. However, when selecting your choice of train and ticket, it gives the option for you to get an 'Off-peak single', even on the 07:30 service (and on previous and following departures that are before 09:26). On another page within the VT website, which can be found here, it is mentioned that if Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak are listed as a ticket type then your ticket is valid.

So, this sounds like the Off-peak ticket would be valid on the 07:30. Would anyone be able to confirm this, please? I don't want to go ahead and purchase the ticket to then turn up on the day and be told my ticket isn't valid on that service.

Many thanks in advance

tony_mac · 28 Jun 2015

Are you using a railcard?
If so, then that is why it is valid.
If not, can you provide an example, or a screenshot?

CraigS · 28 Jun 2015

I am indeed, a 16-25 railcard.

Excellent. Many thanks!

amateur · 1 Jul 2015

Would the promotion apply/be valid for travel on the Rugby London Euston 06:20 - 07:31 departure (1R03). if starting at Northampton*, if one morning the 1R03 got cancelled ....what would be the option then?

Would LM authorise travel on the next train? or would you have to "upgrade" to peak in order to travel on LM.

* VT only offer one train a day from Northampton.

Also, why is the promotion NOT on offer for journeys starting from MKC?

Hadders · 1 Jul 2015

amateur said:
Also, why is the promotion NOT on offer for journeys starting from MKC?

London Midland set the any permitted fare from Milton Keynes to London and operate the majority of services.

The potential for total confusion and revenue reduction would be incredible if the easement were allowed from Milton Keynes.

Bletchleyite · 1 Jul 2015

amateur said:
Would the promotion apply/be valid for travel on the Rugby London Euston 06:20 - 07:31 departure (1R03). if starting at Northampton*, if one morning the 1R03 got cancelled ....what would be the option then?

As it's an easement and not an entitlement I expect you'd have to cough up.

34D · 1 Jul 2015

Neil Williams said:
As it's an easement and not an entitlement I expect you'd have to cough up.

If reservations were held, the other TOC at Northampton would have to carry you under the NRCOC

Bletchleyite · 1 Jul 2015

34D said:
If reservations were held, the other TOC at Northampton would have to carry you under the NRCOC

Would they? It's an easement in excess of the NRCoC offered at the TOC's discretion. They could withdraw it in the event of a cancellation, surely, as that would still leave the regular NRCoC in place.

Even if not, you would only be able to do NMP-MKC on LM and change there for a southbound VT.

bb21 · 1 Jul 2015

Neil Williams said:
As it's an easement and not an entitlement I expect you'd have to cough up.

What about contract law?

You hold a valid ticket for conveyance on a train service. The service is cancelled at short notice, surely the passenger cannot be left stranded?

Bletchleyite · 1 Jul 2015

A refund would be offered.

bb21 · 1 Jul 2015

Neil Williams said:
A refund would be offered.

The contract is for conveyance from the origin to the destination. Can the train company unilaterally withdraw from the contract after failing to fulfill their obligations? Wouldn't the NRCoC have something to say about it?

Bletchleyite · 1 Jul 2015

bb21 said:
The contract is for conveyance from the origin to the destination. Can the train company unilaterally withdraw from the contract after failing to fulfill their obligations? Wouldn't the NRCoC have something to say about it?

An interesting question. However I don't see why LM would be obliged to accept this variation unless VT paid them to do so, as it is in excess of the NRCoC. So would it have to be a case of buy an Anytime Single to MKC (to change for an onward VT) and claim it back from VT?

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