10 legit ways to get cheaper rail fares

[theblackwatch]

Blackwatch - the main difference that I can identify personally between GNER tickets and their respective VXC tickets is that GNER operate a minimum fare on railcards, VXC not - meaning that Virgin tickets can start at £5.60 and GNER at £9.x0, with GNER tickets seemingly selling out earlier.

The railcard arguement is irrelevent to me (and a lot of other people) - until the ageist element of railcards is removed.

I'm still not convinced by your statement that GNER tickets sell out earlier - I've just done a quick check from London to Leeds on March 26th, and on GNER from KX there are £9.50 tickets available on both the 20.30 and 21.30 departures. Do the journey by MML from St Pancras to Leeds, and the cheapest is the 21.25 departure at £12.50. Obviously it will be possible, I am sure, to find another journey where GNER have sold out and MML or VT haven't - but my experience is that GNER are no better or worse than any others, and there's the advantage of being able to book (and plan trips away) further in advance with them.

 

[adambro]

In summary:

If travelling to London from outsize the Zones, and you require travel around London (even in just zones 1 and 2), then it is cheaper to get an inclusive travelcard. It is not cheaper to split it into a CDR + Oyster.

Would this rule not stand when you can book ahead and get advance tickets? Went from Peterborough to London recently on GNER advance singles then a couple of trips in central london on my Oyster.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Anyone who thinks £10.65 York-London (or £9.50 if you book online through GNER) is expensive needs to have a reality check. That fare is cheaper than any ordinary ticket you could buy for that journey around 20 years ago - it is incredibly good value. If £10.65 for 189 miles is expensive, what is a local bus journey at around £1.30 for 2 miles?

I was saying in my original post that I thought SC on GNER wasn't expensive compared with MML, I was mostly comparing the FC value fares.

I've not said that the value fares are expensive, it's just that i could get it cheaper on MML, than GNER.

 

[yorkie]

For York or elsewhere I was thinking more along the lines of CDS/R to Leeds/Doncaster or Sheffield and then AP to London.

Were you? Well it may have been worth considering the fact that the saving from booking to Donny instead of York (of approx £2-3) is not going to cover the cost of a CDR to Donny/Leeds.

What I was trying to get at probably is that GNER tickets seem to sell out earlier, because of the factors already mentioned.

Maybe, but they go on sale earlier, which is not a bad thing.

Tom convieniently picked an example (Grantham) where a CDR/Travelcard ticket was available and it wasn't terribly far from London. We need to remember that CDs or Travelcard-inclusive tickets aren't always available from all origins, on all operators and not all tickets can come with LU travel included - Tom's example fortunately did. We have to look at passengers from further afield having to purchase LU travel seperately, whether it be at the origin station, or when they arrive in London, but not inclusive of their NR ticket to London Termini.

But Tom was only using that example because I used it here and, in fact I am one of the people who am based 'further afield having to purchase LU travel seperately'! :banghead:

The simple facts are:
1) I cannot buy an inclusive travelcard, so I have to split somewhere
2) The ticket office will attempt to sell me a SVR to London, and then a travelcard from there
3) The cheapest option is a CDR to Grantham and then ODT from there.

On that basis, as has been identified previously, an off-peak ODT travelcard purchased exclusive of all other travel with railcard costs nearly £5. A Z12 Oyster cap is £4.60 - even a Z12 Oyster return is £3 (railcard N/A obviously). A London Termini - LU/DLR tube return ticket (probably what the 'travelcard' price is) seems to be in the region of £4 - with a railcard.

An then let's think about the other x number without railcards.

Exactly - so that's why it is cheaper to purchase an inclusive travelcard :banghead:

Quick reminder, the ODT on NR only exists where TOCs find it "reasonable" for a day trip to be carried out, based on distance over time.

Based on the steam era, yeah

Would this rule not stand when you can book ahead and get advance tickets? Went from Peterborough to London recently on GNER advance singles then a couple of trips in central london on my Oyster.

Well, the original article and this topic were about walk-on fares. The rules of advance purchase are completely different.

For a non-railcard holder who can plan ahead, and who then wishes to use LU (and not NR) within London, I admit that advance purchase plus Oyster is likely to be best.

I've not said that the value fares are expensive, it's just that i could get it cheaper on MML, than GNER.

To be honest, the demand for FC on the GNER route is such that it's priced for bona fide FC passengers, they don't really cater for enthusiasts who want a cheap upgrade I'll occasionally do MML FC (on a weekday - a weekend is pointless) when I'm not doing a day trip, for the experience.

 

[Max]

To be honest, the demand for FC on the GNER route is such that it's priced for bona fide FC passengers, they don't really cater for enthusiasts who want a cheap upgrade

My Mum was actually pretty disappointed with her first class experience. She was travelling between Edinburgh and Doncaster (one question I would have is why are GNER Ad First tickets only slightly different in price when not including London, but are much higher than Std. Ad tickets when travelling to London? It's the same train/service!).

She said the food offerings were pretty poor, as were the choice of inclusive drinks, and apparently some of the staff were not particularly friendly. Also, her and her friend had to share a table with other people, due to the stupid fact that they were not reserved on their own table! She said that one of the first class hosts spilt milk on a man's trousers and didn't even apologise! Not what you would expect when you're paying so much more...

 

[CallySleeper]

Were you? Well it may have been worth considering the fact that the saving from booking to Donny instead of York (of approx £2-3) is not going to cover the cost of a CDR to Donny/Leeds.

I don't understand the point you're trying to get across.

But Tom was only using that example because I used it here and, in fact I am one of the people who am based 'further afield having to purchase LU travel seperately'! :banghead:

The simple facts are:
1) I cannot buy an inclusive travelcard, so I have to split somewhere
2) The ticket office will attempt to sell me a SVR to London, and then a travelcard from there
3) The cheapest option is a CDR to Grantham and then ODT from there.

What is the compative saving between the options.

Exactly - so that's why it is cheaper to purchase an inclusive travelcard :banghead:

I feel you've missed a vital point I brought up in my last post - Travelcard-inclusive tickets aren't always available from all origins, on all operators and not all tickets can come with LU travel included. What I feel you're doing is using two lesser-majority groups to prove a point - railcard holders (the majority of passengers aren't railcard holders are they?) and stations within a radius London applicable for the purchase of travelcard-inclusive tickets, such as Grantham. Please could we focus a little more on the majority?

Fortunately for you, you live outside the 'radius' but still are able to split your journey to get it cheaper. As we've already hit upon in this thread, what proportion would actually do this?

For the rest of us, we have four routes to take - walk-up or advance purchase to a London termini, and then travelcard or Oyster thereon. As you know, in most cases A/P (if you're not buying on the day of travel) is cheaper from longer distance. Travelcard or Oyster is possibly down to personal preferance - a return trip on Oyster is cheaper than any travelcard bought seperately, railcard or not.

The purpose of the Oyster card still stands as it was intended when introduced - it is always cheaper to travel in London on one than on travelcards or paper tickets.

Z1256 Travelcard + railcard - £4.80

Z12 Oyster Return - 2 x £1.50 = £3

(Depending on how much you were planning to travel. Z12 Oyster cap is £4.60, so still 20 pence cheaper.)

One other thing:

Z1256 Oyster Return - 2 x £2 = £4. So even a return trip to zone 6 would be cheaper on Oyster. A Z1256 Oyster cap is £6.20, but you would have to make at least 5 journeys across the zones to reach it.

Thinking about the majority, going back to the Grantham example (WITHOUT the railcard ):

Travelcard Off Peak - £32.10
CDR - £27.00

Therefore actual travelcard price - £5.10. Remember that you're only allowed to make 2 journeys on the tickets - one from the NR terminus, one to.

Oyster Return - £3 or £4 depending on distance.

Z1256 ODT here - £6.70

Oyster caps - ranging from £4.60 to £6.20 - the absolute maximum you would pay.

Which option - Oyster or ODT - is cheaper now?

 

[Craig]

and apparently some of the staff were not particularly friendly

In my experience GNER's on board staff are either excellent or p*ss poor, there doesn't appear to be any kind of middle ground. I usually find staff in first class to be more friendly on off peak/weekend services when there's not so many business types travelling.

 

[yorkie]

I don't understand the point you're trying to get across.

You were claiming that a Donny/Leeds-London MML advance + CDR from York-Leeds/Donny is cheaper than a York-London GNER advance. It's not. That is my point.

"I was aware that MM only ran 2 trains/week but you shouldn't really be discounting the cheaper fares on that basis. It might still be cheaper to change at Leeds or Sheffield."

"For York or elsewhere I was thinking more along the lines of CDS/R to Leeds/Doncaster or Sheffield and then AP to London."

What is the compative saving between the options.

I already said earlier in the topic that it saves £15 (with railcard - even more without).

I feel you've missed a vital point I brought up in my last post

You say I miss points?!

- Travelcard-inclusive tickets aren't always available from all origins, on all operators and not all tickets can come with LU travel included.

I addressed that point. I can't get it from York, so I am in that boat so to speak. That is why I am saying it may be cheaper to split the tickets so that a Travelcard is included.

What I feel you're doing is using two lesser-majority groups to prove a point - railcard holders (the majority of passengers aren't railcard holders are they?)

OK, we'll do it without railcards but the fact is that anyone with a railcard gets an even bigger benefit.

and stations within a radius London applicable for the purchase of travelcard-inclusive tickets, such as Grantham. Please could we focus a little more on the majority?

But the fact is I am saying "here's an example of how money can be saved", I am not saying the majority can do the saving.

Fortunately for you, you live outside the 'radius' but still are able to split your journey to get it cheaper.

Many other people can do the same thing, it can be done easily on FGW (split at Didcot is best, if not Reading!), Virgin, MML (there's a nice trick with that which I won't publish here), etc.

As we've already hit upon in this thread, what proportion would actually do this?

Depends what you mean by "would do this?" The topic is about revealing ways to get cheaper tickets. Whether or not people choose to actually purchase cheaper combinations is another matter and probably beyond the scope of this topic. But the fact is, they can do it in many cases.

For the rest of us, we have four routes to take - walk-up or advance purchase to a London termini, and then travelcard or Oyster thereon. As you know, in most cases A/P (if you're not buying on the day of travel) is cheaper from longer distance.

Yes, but the topic was about splitting walk-on tickets.

Travelcard or Oyster is possibly down to personal preferance - a return trip on Oyster is cheaper than any travelcard bought seperately, railcard or not.

Travelcard is a product, which can be on Oyster. Pre-pay can be cheaper than a travelcard if doing just 1 return journeys, yes.

The purpose of the Oyster card still stands as it was intended when introduced - it is always cheaper to travel in London on one than on travelcards or paper tickets.

Always? Errr, no.

Z1256 Travelcard + railcard - £4.80

Z12 Oyster Return - 2 x £1.50 = £3

£1.80 extra for unlimited travel seems good to me.

(Depending on how much you were planning to travel. Z12 Oyster cap is £4.60, so still 20 pence cheaper.)

I'd rather pay 20p to get NR and Zones 4-6 thanks.

One other thing:

Z1256 Oyster Return - 2 x £2 = £4. So even a return trip to zone 6 would be cheaper on Oyster. A Z1256 Oyster cap is £6.20, but you would have to make at least 5 journeys across the zones to reach it.

Yes, Oyster is good for just return trips. How many people who visit London and wish to go round London would be happy with 1 return trip though, I wonder.

Thinking about the majority, going back to the Grantham example (WITHOUT the railcard ):

Travelcard Off Peak - £32.10
CDR - £27.00

Therefore actual travelcard price - £5.10. Remember that you're only allowed to make 2 journeys on the tickets - one from the NR terminus, one to.

Oyster Return - £3 or £4 depending on distance.

Z1256 ODT here - £6.70

Oyster caps - ranging from £4.60 to £6.20 - the absolute maximum you would pay.

Which option - Oyster or ODT - is cheaper now?

Hmm, interesting. Without railcard, it's £3 more for the travelcard from Peterborough but £5.10 more from Grantham. I don't see the logic in that (but of course I know logic doesn't really apply here). Now I see why you chose Grantham

The answer of course depends on how many Zones you are going to use, and how many journeys. It's still cheaper than the Pre-pay cap for the equivalent zones though!

To take the Peterborough example of £3 more (without railcard), that matches an Oyster return and gives you loads of extra travel for free, and all on one ticket!

So yes it does depend a lot on people's individual circumstances but the fact is that, in the context of walk-on tickets, an inclusive travelcard is usually a very good deal (especially for railcard holders).

Quick reminder, the ODT on NR only exists where TOCs find it "reasonable" for a day trip to be carried out, based on distance over time.

In general, ODTs only exist where CDRs to London Terminals exist.

However Rugby is a really odd exception to this (Peter B will hate this example), and I became aware of this because of a certain forum member being based at Rugby.

There is no Rugby-London 'Any Permitted' CDR, yet an ODT does exist at £29.10. The cheapest 'Any permitted' return is a SVR, at £30.50. So, the cheapest off-peak return for a day trip is a ODT! (Can't wait for Peter's response! )

 

[CallySleeper]

You were claiming that a Donny/Leeds-London MML advance + CDR from York-Leeds/Donny is cheaper than a York-London GNER advance. It's not. That is my point.

OK, what about when all of GNER's tickets have sold out and MM still have tickets available?

I already said earlier in the topic that it saves £15 (with railcard - even more without).

OK, we'll do it without railcards but the fact is that anyone with a railcard gets an even bigger benefit.

You've contradicted yourself!

But the fact is I am saying "here's an example of how money can be saved", I am not saying the majority can do the saving.

Or that the majority will necessarily be able to save money anyway?

Many other people can do the same thing, it can be done easily on FGW (split at Didcot is best, if not Reading!), Virgin, MML (there's a nice trick with that which I won't publish here), etc.

Depends what you mean by "would do this?" The topic is about revealing ways to get cheaper tickets. Whether or not people choose to actually purchase cheaper combinations is another matter and probably beyond the scope of this topic. But the fact is, they can do it in many cases.

Many other people are physically able given their location - I probably am. What I am saying is, what proportion of those
a) know about splitting tickets, and
b) would be able to split so that they pay less than paying for a direct ticket.

The answers are obviously unknown and off topic but I suspect that it's probably not the majoirty who do.

(Personally, I have heard about splitting tickets but consider it usually unnecessary and, in the case of London, it would be more expensive in 99% of cases)

Always? Errr, no.

Show me where it isn't the case then please. Never wondered why TFL keep branding Oyster as "cheaper"?

(source)

Yes, Oyster is good for just return trips. How many people who visit London and wish to go round London would be happy with 1 return trip though, I wonder.

Business visitors? Again, the answer is unknown.

So yes it does depend a lot on people's individual circumstances but the fact is that, in the context of walk-on tickets, an inclusive travelcard is usually a very good deal (especially for railcard holders).

Yes, ODTs from NR probably serve their purpose, although the situation changes as cheaper AP tickets are introduced.

In general, ODTs only exist where CDRs to London Terminals exist.

However Rugby is a really odd exception to this (Peter B will hate this example), and I became aware of this because of a certain forum member being based at Rugby.

There is no Rugby-London 'Any Permitted' CDR, yet an ODT does exist at £29.10. The cheapest 'Any permitted' return is a SVR, at £30.50. So, the cheapest off-peak return for a day tripis a ODT! (Can't wait for Peter's response! )

There are two routes, two different CDR tickets, two different SVR tickets, and two different ODT tickets. As you can see here, the cheapest of the two tickets for each route is still at least £5.10 cheaper than the equivalent ODT. Also, what is so crucial about the ticket being AP? There is a set for both routes. (although why the saver price is 40 pence cheaper than the CDR price for the VIC route is by the bye)

 

[Tom]

Peter B - Oyster caps are only cheaper because they do not include all National Rail lines. A point which has actually been made known by TfL themselves somewhere on their website a while back. :roll:

As per the Avantix Traveller software, the cheapest fare on Virgin West Coast without a travelcard is the SVR at £30.50, restrictions:

Restriction : 2A
  FOR TRAVEL TO OR VIA:       
London Terminals,_Milton      
Keynes, Watford, Stevenage,   
Reading, Kensington Olympia,  
Bedford, Luton and Luton      
Airport Parkway.              
                              
These restrictions apply      
Monday to Friday. By any train
on other days.                
If travel does not involve    
London Terminals, see         
restriction code 2Z.          
                              
                              
OUTWARD TRAVEL                
You may travel on any train   
that is scheduled to ARRIVE as
shown below:                  
                              
RETURN TRAVEL                 
You may travel on any train   
that is scheduled to DEPART_as
shown below:                  
                              
ARRIVE: LONDON EUSTON         
At or after 1100.             
                              
DEPART: LONDON EUSTON         
Between 0915 & 1514 (inc.) and
at or after 1812.             
                              
ARRIVE: KING'S CROSS          
At or after 1115.             
                              
DEPART: KING'S CROSS          
between 0929 & 1457 (inc.) and
at or after 1859.             
                              
ARRIVE: KINGS CROSS THAMESLINK
At or after 1034              
                              
DEPART: KING'S CROSS          
THAMESLINK                    
Between 0925 & 1554 (inc.) and
at or after 1925.             
                              
ARRIVE: LONDON LIVERPOOL      
STREET                        
At or after 1015 (see note    
below)                        
                              
DEPART:LONDON LIVERPOOL STREET
At or before 1700 and at or   
after 1850                    
                              
ARRIVE: LONDON MARYLEBONE     
At or after 1026              
                              
DEPART: LONDON MARYLEBONE     
Any train                     
                              
ARRIVE: LONDON PADDINGTON     
At or after 1044              
                              
DEPART: LONDON PADDINGTON     
Between 0925 & 1630 (inc.) and
at or after 1822              
                              
ARRIVE: LONDON ST PANCRAS     
At or after 1039              
                              
DEPART: LONDON ST PANCRAS     
Between 0901 & 1559 (inc.) and
at or after 1901              
ARRIVE: LONDON WATERLOO       
At or after 1050              
                              
DEPART: LONDON WATERLOO       
Between 0925 & 1630 (inc.)    
and at or after 1822          
                              
ARRIVE: KENSINGTON OLYMPIA    
At or after 1100              
                              
DEPART: KENSINGTON OLYMPIA    
Between 0915 & 1514 (inc.)    
and at or after 1812.         
                              
                              
ARRIVE: BEDFORD               
At or after 1021              
                              
DEPART: BEDFORD               
Between 0950 & 1615 (inc.)    
and at or after 2000          
                              
ARRIVE: LUTON                 
At or after 1036              
                              
DEPART: LUTON                 
Between 0948 & 1618 (inc.) and
at or after 1950              
                              
                              
ARRIVE: LUTON AIRPORT PARKWAY 
At or after 1051              
                              
DEPART: LUTON AIRPORT PARKWAY 
Between 0925 & 1605 (inc.) and
at or after 1927              
                              
ARRIVE: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL 
At or after 1025              
                              
DEPART: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL 
Between 0946 & 1546 (inc.) and
at or after 1906              
                              
                              
ARRIVE: READING               
At or after 1012              
                              
DEPART: READING               
Between 0950 & 1655 (inc.) and
at or after 1851              
                              
ARRIVE: STEVENAGE             
At or after 1039              
                              
DEPART: STEVENAGE             
Between 0946 & 1457 (inc.) and
at or after 1859              
                              
                              
ARRIVE: STRATFORD             
At or after 1015              
                              
DEPART: STRATFORD             
At or before 1705 and (inc.)  
at or after 1855              
                              
ARRIVE: WATFORD JUNCTION      
At or after 1046              
                              
DEPART: WATFORD JUNCTION      
Between 0931 & 1529 (inc.) and
at or after 1831              
                              
                              
ARRIVE: STATIONS BETWEEN      
WATFORD JUNCTION AND MILTON   
KEYNES                        
At or after 1046              
                              
DEPART: STATIONS BETWEEN      
WATFORD JUNCTION AND MILTON   
KEYNES                        
Between 0946 & 1546 (inc.) and
at or after 1906              
                              
EASEMENTS:                    
Valid on all SCOTRAIL (FSR)   
CALEDONIAN SLEEPER services   
(with supplement).            
If travelling to or via:      
Carlisle, Penrith North Lake, 
Lancaster or Oxenholme Lake   
District, travel is allowed on
the following departures:     
1546 London Euston to Glasgow 
Central                       
1646 London Euston to         
Edinburgh                     
1808 London Euston to Glasgow 
Central                       
If travelling to Preston,     
Crewe or Rugby, travel is     
allowed on the following      
departure:                    
1808 London Euston to Glasgow 
Central                       
                              
NOTES:                        
1) For travel via London,     
see additional notes on page  
E9.                           
2) When the origin of the     
outward portion of the ticket 
is related to Westbury, Castle
Cary, Pewsey or Swindon, the  
OUTWARD travel restrictions   
above also apply to the RETURN
journey to London.            
3) Travel to London Liverpool 
Street from March,            
Peterborough (or related      
stations) or a station north  
of Peterborough, is           
permitted only on trains which
arrive at London Liverpool    
Street at or after 1115.      
4) Information about 'related 
stations' can be found in     
Section Z.                    
          SV SAVER            
                              
Ticket Code:               SVS
Ticket Class:         STANDARD
Ticket Name:             SAVER
Single/Return:          SINGLE
Out Validity:-                
Day -           DATE ON TICKET
Time -               SEE BELOW
Break of Journey:           NO
Pre-Booking Requirement:  NONE
Reservations Compulsory:    NO
Child Discount:            YES
Railcard Discount:         YES
Group Discount:            YES
Refunds:  RETAIL MANUAL PART 1
Out Travel:  AVAILABLE ANY DAY
                              
                              
Ticket Code:               SVR
Ticket Class:         STANDARD
Ticket Name:             SAVER
Single/Return:          RETURN
Out Validity:-                
Day  -          DATE ON TICKET
Time -               SEE BELOW
Return Validity:-             
Day  -      ONE CALENDAR MONTH
Time -               SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT)        NO
               (RTN) SEE BELOW
Pre-Booking Requirement:  NONE
Reservations Compulsory:    NO
Child Discount:            YES
Railcard Discount:         YES
Group Discount:            YES
Refunds:  RETAIL MANUAL PART 1
Out Travel:  AVAILABLE ANY DAY
Rtn Travel:  AVAILABLE ANY DAY
                              
                              
EXCEPTIONS                    
Saver tickets are NOT valid:  
                              
in heavy demand business      
traveller and commuter trains 
(see validity codes for       
 details).                    
break of journey at a London  
Underground station. Tickets  
with LU availability and the  
'maltese cross' symbol in the 
route description, allow      
transfer across London        
appropriate to the route of   
the through rail journey being
(See Section A for details).  
                              
                              
break of journey on single or 
outward portion other than to 
gain access to station        
services. However where it is 
necessary to change trains at 
an intermediate station and   
there is no reasonable onward 
connection the same day, the  
journey may be broken         
overnight and continued the   
next morning.                 
                              
in First Class accomodation   
except where an appropriate   
supplement has been paid.     
                              
                              
EASEMENTS                     
Any local validity easements  
will appear in Section M of   
this fares manual.            
                              
Generally, journeys may be    
started before 0230 on the    
morning of the day after the  
ticket's last day of validity.
                              
Train restrictions do not     
apply on Public Holidays.     
                              
NETWORK AREA                  
The former London & South East
Area is now the Network Area -
for map see Retail Manual Part
Two (National Information).   
Saver Tickets issued for      
journeys commencing WITHIN the
Network Area for travel via   
London are valid by any train 
to London to connect with     
trains from London on which   
they may be used.             
Saver tickets issued for      
journeys commencing OUTSIDE   
the Network Area for travel   
via London, take the          
restrictions from the origin  
station to London and return. 
Unless shown otherwise under  
individual restriction codes, 
they are unrestricted between 
London and the destination    
station and return.           
                              
A Saver and SuperSaver Ticket 
Information Card giving detail
of ticket validity should be  
given out with each Saver     
ticket.                       
                              
                              
VIRGIN TRAINS                 
Holders of Young Persons,     
Senior, Disabled, HM Forces   
and Family Railcards, New Deal
Photocards & Inter Rail (Code 
70) Cards travelling with     
Saver tickets may use ANY     
Virgin Train.

SVR   -  SAVER RETURN                 VWC
00000 -  ANY PERMITTED   

   1 Adult    @£    30.50  =  £    30.50
                              __________
                              £    30.50

The CDR you mention is ROUTEING point CENTRAL/SILVERLINK, therefore not valid on the fast services.

Restriction : B5
OUTWARD TRAVEL                
By any train except those     
timed to depart Mondays to    
Fridays before 0830 (SEE NOTE)
                              
RETURN TRAVEL                 
By any train (SEE NOTE).      
                              
NOTE: In addition to the      
specific restrictions listed, 
the Off-Peak Day Travelcard/  
First,Family Travelcard,      
and all                       
Cheap Day Singles and Returns 
Outward and Return,           
are barred from London        
Paddington on Great Western   
services timed to depart      
between 1600 and 1915         
inclusive Mondays to Fridays  
and on 1752 First Great       
Western Link (Worcester F St).
This restriction also         
applies from Reading for      
non-London destinations as    
appropiate.                   
                              
                              
from London Euston on Virgin  
Trains services timed to      
depart between 1600 and 1815  
inclusive Mondays to Fridays. 
        CD CHEAP DAY          
     FCR FIRST CHEAP DAY      
 OD OFF-PEAK DAY TRAVELCARD   
OTF 1ST OFFPEAK DAY TRAVELCARD
FTC FAMILY TRAVELCARD         
                              
                              
Cheap Day Singles & Returns   
are valid for travel on the   
date shown on the ticket or on
the following day before 0230.
The journey may be completed  
after this period provided    
that it is not broken.        
                              
Off-peak Day Travelcards,     
Family Travelcards            
and Weekend Travelcards       
are valid for travel          
throughout the selected       
Travelcard Zones from 0930    
Mondays-Fridays (0001 Sat, Sun
and Public Holidays) on the   
day of validity and for any   
journey that starts before    
0430 on the following day.

CDR   -  CHEAP DAY RTN                STS
00042 -  CENTRAL/SILVLINK

   1 Adult    @£    21.90  =  £    21.90
                              __________
                              £    21.90

There is an ODT for Central/Silverlink at £27.00 on the slower route, but the cheapest fare on Virgin West Coast IS the ODT.

ODT   -  OFF-PEAK TCDSTD              VWC
00000 -  ANY PERMITTED   

   1 Adult    @£    29.10  =  £    29.10
                              __________
                              £    29.10

 

[CallySleeper]

Peter B - Oyster caps are only cheaper because they do not include all National Rail lines. A point which has actually been made known by TfL themselves somewhere on their website a while back. :roll:

Beside the point - they're still cheaper, and why would I ever want to use NR in London?

 

[Tom]

Take a look at South London, oh, and look at the edit in my post above.

 

[theblackwatch]

Beside the point - they're still cheaper, and why would I ever want to use NR in London?

Because LUL doesn't serve a lot of places in London. And for a lot of journeys in London, NR is (by far) the quickest way of getting between points. Why would I ever want to restrict myself to not using NR?

 

[Techniquest]

I've just finally, after over 10 minutes, finished reading the posts on this page. It's ridiculous...

I'll answer Peter B's final point first (why would I want to use NR in London). Umm, this is perhaps obvious but since Oyster does not, on PAYG at least, reach places like Chessington South, Hampton Court, Strawberry Hill, Clapham Junction, East Croydon and many, many other NR destinations (I won't even try to list them all), the paper ODT is the ticket you need. It is the sole reason why I don't really use my Oyster when I am in London, because I like to be able to use NR! Indeed, my to-be-standard series of moves on arrival into London (Bakerloo off Padd - Harrow and Wealdstone (changing onto SL services if necessary) - Clapham Junction via Wembley slow lines (ie, SN 377s) - Victoria - next destination) would simply be impossible under current Oyster restrictions. Since I also have a Y-P, the ODT Z1-6 is excellent value at £4.80, and I was amazed that a Z12 ODT was the same price! I had thought about cutting costs down and sticking to Zones 1 and 2 last time in London, missing out the fun of the aforementioned series of moves and numbers, but when I discovered the prices were the same the 6-zone one was obviously bought!

I can get a CDR from Hereford, I am lucky. That does, of course, restrict me heavily via Evesham only. What the price of the CDR including Z1-6 is I don't know, but I daresay the savings are minimal. The price of a SVR between HFD and PAD including a ODT is what I want to see.

AP booking from, say, KGX to Donny then a CDR to York or Leeds IS more expensive than booking straight through. Always will be. Same principle applies to, say, PAD - Abergavenny then a CDR to Hereford, it is the same price anyway for the AP fare to Abergavenny and HFD!

An interesting one though is BHM - Cambridge (via KGX). This is the same AP price as BHM - EUS, yet the mileage is considerably more! I am sure though that it was actually cheaper to do the former last year. Not the case anymore though, as I checked earlier. Same applies to BHM - Chelmsford, as my sister has a booked AP fare for that journey at £8.90 (also a Y-P holder). Bargain.

Now, for the reason why I wanted to post at all tonight. Splitting fares is incredibly cheaper sometimes. Granted, you are then stuck to going the same way in both directions, but the savings outweigh that restriction. My example:

HFD - YRK SVR - £46.05 with a Y-P.

I was interested in going to the NRM tomorrow until I saw that. Then last night I started looking at combination CDRs. I was amazed at the differences (all fares found on Advantix)!:

HFD - MAN CDR £21.85
MAN - YRK SDR £14.40 (a SVR is just 20p more!!! - and no, splitting at LDS is quite a bit more than that fare)
Total £36.85

£9.20 saving. Not bad when you consider that you can avoid Voyagers and get a monsterous 185 at the same time.

HFD - LDS £38.80
LDS - YRK £7.45 (yes, just 35p less than a HFD - BHM CDR...)
Total £46.25

Splitting at LDS (still allowing me therefore to go via MAN outward, BHM return as originally wished) costs me 20p. That plan went out of the window considerably quickly!

HFD - BHM £7.80
BHM - DBY £6.45
DBY - SHF £5.35
SHF - YRK £9.30
Total £28.90
Total saving versus SVR: £17.15

Of course, the SHF - YRK CDR allows travel via LDS and Donny, allowing my Voyager (or whatever traction is shoved out) to go both ways and for me to legally travel on it without having to restrict myself to go via LDS or whatever! Indeed, considering the distance on that journey it isn't bad at all!

Naturally, this means I would have to go the same way in both directions, meaning a relying on getting a lift to HFD for the 0721 (HST as far as Worcester) or the 0737 (which I'd get from Worcester if I didn't get the HST) to BHM. Coming back I have a +16 minutes connection, but I might try and leave before that Voyager just in case it runs late! Get an earlier one to SHF and get the 1827 off SHF to DBY, getting a 170 to BHM with a fairly long fester at BHM for the 2059 to HFD. Hmm, an idea that!...

Anyhoo, now I've made my points I've got to get ready for a bash...

 

[Ascot]

From Rugby, your better off getting a BHM to 1072 Central/Silverlink THEN a travelcard as it's the same price ticket and that Saver Portion is always useful. Plus it's cheaper to get a CDR plus a £2 travel card, unless your adult then it's cheaper for a ODT 0035

EDIT: Do the Euston Restrictions apply for YPs using ODTs? and what other restrictions are lifted and/or apply?

 

[thefab444]

Hmm, interesting to note something whilst planning my trip tommorow. All prices w/Family Railcard 1 adult 1 child.

Salisbury to Swansea is £33.80
Cardiff Central to Cardiff Bay is £2.20
TOT: £36.00


BUT

Salisbury to Cardiff Bay is £21.25
Cardiff Central to Swansea is £7.65 (this is the more expensive ATW option, if you went FGW you could go for £4.30)
TOT: £28.90

So I can save £7.10 purely by splitting tickets at different location... wierd. Suits me fine though!

 

[Techniquest]

Yes, but you are needing to remember something:

Salisbury to Swansea sounds like a Saver fare. You cannot break your journey (unless changing trains to complete the journey) on an outward part of a Saver!

 

[Tom]

ATW have reduced the £7.65 fare you refer to, to £4.20 to undercut FGW IIRC.

 

[CallySleeper]

(text)

Where does it say about CDR not being valid on VWC? Also, it says that those restrictions are Monday - Friday, the information I thumbnailed was for tomorrow (a Saturday)

From what you've said, my point still stands - an ODT is still at least £5.10 more expensive than the equivalent CDR or SVR.

Because LUL doesn't serve a lot of places in London. And for a lot of journeys in London, NR is (by far) the quickest way of getting between points. Why would I ever want to restrict myself to not using NR?

ODT seems then to be better for those affected, but what if I intend to travel in North or Central London and/or not by rail? It would seem then as we agreed above that personal circumstances generally dictate which ticketing method is best.

Re: WSXFan splitting - I believe splitting tickets is only really for longer distance journeys but then quite a few now would be AP eligable. Yours doesn't appear to be, although if it were further in advance I would consider CDR to BHM then AP if available.

 

[Ascot]

Rugby to Euston

ODT - £27.00
Terminals - £21.90 CDR + Travel Card Adult @ £6.70
All Central Silverlink Public Adult

So

From what you've said, my point still stands - an ODT is still at least £5.10 more expensive than the equivalent CDR or SVR.

Is Ruled out

 

[Tom]

Peter B, if the routing point is Central/Silverlink, then it is ONLY valid on Central Trains or Silverlink. NOT Virgin West Coast. Are you dumb?

 

[Daniel]

Isn't there only 1 Central/Silverlink from Rugby to Euston?


(up to Rugby it is a Central Trains service)
18:14 from Rugby
(non-stop to Euston as Silverlink service)

 

[CallySleeper]

And how much did we say an ODT was, £30.xx?

 

[Tom]

£29.10 on VWC. Therefore £1.40 cheaper than the cheapest non-travelcard fare.

It's £27.00 on Silverlink, but you pay £2.10 extra for the faster journey.

 

[CallySleeper]

£29.10 on VWC. Therefore £1.40 cheaper than the cheapest non-travelcard fare.

It's £27.00 on Silverlink, but you pay £2.10 extra for the faster journey.

But the cheapest fare overall is the £21.90 Silverlink CDR: £5.10 cheaper than the Silverlink ODT.

 

[Tom]

:roll:. Are you missing the point?

The ODT gives better value for money. End of. Oyster does not give better value for money.

As for your question, why would you want to use NR in London, find the quickest way to get between, say, Waterloo and Hampton Court. Or Waterloo and Wimbledon, or maybe Hackney Wick and South Acton?

 

[CallySleeper]

:roll:. Are you missing the point?

The ODT gives better value for money. End of. Oyster does not give better value for money.

As for your question, why would you want to use NR in London, find the quickest way to get between, say, Waterloo and Hampton Court. Or Waterloo and Wimbledon, or maybe Hackney Wick and South Acton?

Tom, read what I said about your points before. This does not work for everyone. As for your Grantham example, and now this, you've used examples which would work for you. As I said previously, it may not work for all operators, routes, tickets, etc. Essentially, this isn't always the universal best option.

Similarly, the ODT isn't always the best option. It does not always give better value for money - down to its different uses. As we've already hinted, an ODT would be better value for money then for those intending to travel by NR either from a reasonable distance into London or either within London itself, Oyster for a return trip on the Tube. Both have their uses - for your example ODT works out to be the better option but I'm confident that Oyster isn't exactly useless either.

 

[Ascot]

But the cheapest fare overall is the £21.90 Silverlink CDR: £5.10 cheaper than the Silverlink ODT.

HELLO! Read what i posted

That's £5.10 cheaper maybe but unless your going to do one trip to Bank and back it's useless, you cannot use NR and it's not exactly something a normal person would do on a Saturday, i'd say 9.9'/10 people actually use more than one trip for a day out to London.

EDIT: ALSO £3 for an Oyster anyway so people would rather pay the simple fare than £3 plus minimum £10 or watev for the card then LUL only.

Also cheapest way to London i can get for a proper day out is at least one adult and a child on Chiltern ODT £3 kids and £20+- for adults

 

[Tom]

Tom, read what I said about your points before. This does not work for everyone. As for your Grantham example, and now this, you've used examples which would work for you. As I said previously, it may not work for all operators, routes, tickets, etc. Essentially, this isn't always the universal best option.

I live in the south, the Grantham example does not work for me. In any way shape or form, in fact. You are arguing a point that is a no-go. This is a discussion based on people who are trying to get a discount on walk-on fares, not advance purchase, the latter of which you keep promoting.

Similarly, the ODT isn't always the best option. It does not always give better value for money - down to its different uses. As we've already hinted, an ODT would be better value for money then for those intending to travel by NR either from a reasonable distance into London or either within London itself, Oyster for a return trip on the Tube. Both have their uses - for your example ODT works out to be the better option but I'm confident that Oyster isn't exactly useless either.

Average tourist trip across London I'd say would be possibly 4 trips across zone 1. These being;

• Arrival point - museum
• Museum - restaurant
• Restaurant - theatre
• Theatre - departure point.

Now if the Oyster cash single is £1.50, and the cap is £4.40, then you pay £4.40. If you used the Rugby example we are using for the primary operator to that station (Virgin West Coast, stop trying to argue about Silverlink too, it is useless), you'll be spending £5.90 (I think!) than you need to...

 

[Ascot]

Ok use my example to London see who can come to the cheapest Use Rugby thought instead of Birmingham for this argument, example of day trip:

Saturday, 2 adults 1 child, no rail cards

Birmingham to London

Terminals to Waterloo

London Eye (no fare needed in this argument)

River Boat (discount is a good thing) to Tower

Tower of London and Queens Bling (no fare)

Tower Gateway to Greenwich

Greenwich to 1072

1072 to Knightsbridge

Knightsbridge to 1072

1072 to Marston Green

EDIT: My fare came to £19.50 x2 and a £3 plus discount on River Boat meaning £10 for all 3 of us for the whole day any time travel via High Wycombe, imo that's a good day and me mom n nan enjoyed it anyway for a cheap price